Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Forum: Awareness in our world today

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Topic: What are the components or sustaining forces of self ? Sat, 08 Aug 2009

Didn't K ask if we could live without the personal interfering with relationship to people, nature and ideas? "The Personal" is the problem in life, isn't it?

Topic: What are the components or sustaining forces of self ? Tue, 04 Aug 2009

madhav mool wrote: Now our responsibility concerning K' Teaching in my opinion, as a reader of K, we get different perception than other person. Isn't it ?

Isn't personal perception a limited 'perception', whether of K's teaching or of life? We most certainly do get different 'perceptions' as long as we are attached to any image about the meaning of life or a direction for life or the importance of 'self'.

In discussing "the elements of the self", is not one of those "elements" a tendency to hang on to personal views of K or anyone else? Can views ever be impersonal such that neither you nor I nor K, no self, is guiding or molding the view?

Topic: What are the components or sustaining forces of self ? Sun, 02 Aug 2009

madhav mool wrote: I've my own self-concept about me and I'm unable to free from it. In the same time, I think there's a so much humanbeings here who all have own self-expierence,

Yes, we all have self-experience, and that is what we seem to communicate with our words.

Is it self experience or self-knowledge that is of the greatest significance? Self experience is of 'my' particular self isn't it? Is self knowledge of 'my' self, or does it bring with it an understanding of the nature of the human self, the self without a particular image attached?

Topic: Observing oneself as observer is observed Sun, 02 Aug 2009

madhav mool wrote: it is important thing in our li[f]e

Yes, of course, it is of utmost importance to see the interference of conditioning in human life. And, it seems to me we humans do have moments of 'freedom' in the course of daily life when harmful conditioning ceases to function, but then we have trouble understanding the full implications of such freedom. We probably even fear the freedom since it means the self image loses its dominant role in life. The further implication of freedom is that pursuit of pleasure is a source of conflict and dependence; nevertheless, we resist giving up pleasure, comfort and security for the sake of preserving a self centered existence. It is quite sad really, that we put our lives in bondage just to satisfy an arbitrary image, whether the image is one of a damaged, miserable soul or a triumphant successful being.

Topic: Observing oneself as observer is observed Fri, 31 Jul 2009

madhav mool wrote: conditioned as observer is observed

Not sure what you mean by this madhav. Our conditioning is that the observer and observed are separate. Maybe the observer is the observed prior to its division by conditioned reactions, prior to formation of an identity for the observer. The observer may well be the observed when in fact no identity has formed, when no thinker is present in the operation of the brain, or in a moment when conditioning does not assert itself.

madhav mool wrote: how we can be free from conditioned

I'm not sure we can be or need to be "free from conditioning". Conditioning is a normal function of all sentient beings based on pleasure and pain. The point may be, as with so many other things in life, is it possible to see when conditioning is harmful and when it is necessary in life. Conditioning to avoid an onrushing vehicle or burning hot stove is a good thing. On the other hand, conditioning to indulge pleasurable feelings dulls the mind and contributes to psychoses and destructive tendencies, which may eventually create disaster for the life of the indulgent as well as countless others.

Topic: What are the components or sustaining forces of self ? Fri, 31 Jul 2009
madhav mool wrote:

I've feeling of self, it may be my condition or reflection from my culture or there's a scientific reason and science give full description that we can get information from different sources, beside that I'm questioning whether there's a cause and effect of being self. We can get illustration in different belief as a birth compulsory. How you consider it?

Hi madhov,

Sure, a feeling... a reflection of culture... a scientific explanation... a result of cause and effect... a birth compulsory... Each of these seem to carry a piece of the concept, but in the end is an 'explained' self anything more than a concept with a powerful hold on the imagination and reactive behavior of humans? When I consider the self it is bound to be limited, since consideration stems from another aspect of the self.

So, while the self can consider the self, what would be the significance of such consideration in regard to human behavior? Is there such a thing as a "momentary self", the self in self-knowledge rather than in 'self-consideration', which does not direct behavior and does not continue from moment to moment, but is new each moment?

Richard K.

Topic: Vague insight about the world Fri, 31 Jul 2009

Eve Goodmon wrote: There you go, them and us,

When division is what is, then division is what we see or resist seeing.

Topic: Vague insight about the world Wed, 29 Jul 2009

Eve Goodmon wrote: thinking in terms of division?not the whole.

Thought and the "whole" are mutually exclusive. Then too, there is the qualifying sentence from the post that ties us all together in our patterns of thought: "Each one of us seems to carry the germ of that same behavior, but the resistance to seeing that is incredibly strong apparently."

Topic: Vague insight about the world Tue, 28 Jul 2009

madhav mool wrote: it is not easy to get awareness moment to moment about the our world seeing instantly

Hi madhov, You are right, it is not easy... there is much that goes into building up the overwhelming resistance to awareness by most people most of the time... humans face incredible obstacles to awareness from heritage, from conditioned behavior throughout the early years, from trained conformity in most school systems, from corporate controlled media all over the world, from pressures to find employment and meet family responsibilities, and from living in a world whose controlling oligarchs continuously foster fear in the people of the world.

Nevertheless, it happens that a few people see through this conditioning in each generation and question the way of life that has been forced upon humanity to satisfy the desires of the most corrupt, predatory, exploitative tyrants of each era as they perpetuate, and expand the power of self centered destructive behavior. Each one of us seems to carry the germ of that same behavior, but the resistance to seeing that is incredibly strong apparently.

Kind regards, Richard

Topic: The US President, OBAMA & his.. Wed, 15 Jul 2009

Robert Michael wrote: I think a true leader or teacher is someone who himself has been in all the many trenches of life that those he is trying to teach or liberate are in, or have been in. And has fully overcome them all. And with understanding. Of course along with having also fully transcended his own conditioning.

I have read through many of your comments and Krishnan's comments on this thread and find much in the way of understanding the world. Also, many contradictions. The selected text above is a case in point. No matter what trenches one has been in they all point to the same center as the basis for human bondage to conditioning and there will always be new trenches to deal with, so in what sense can one fully overcome them all by arriving at a fixed view point. Not trying to convince you of anything in particular, just puzzled by the sense of a permanent "fully transcended" state when "fully transcended" can just as well be in this moment and then the next moment and never trapped in fixed ideology.

Topic: The US President, OBAMA & his.. Wed, 15 Jul 2009

The situation with the tiger (bottom of first page) was that Mrs. Gandhi said to K "I am riding the back of a tiger, but I do not know how to get off its back." K replied: "If you are more intelligent than the tiger, you will know how to deal with the tiger." p. 342

So, perhaps it is not a matter of riding or not riding the tiger (or sheep), but rather how one deals with any of life's challenges that is important.

Topic: The US President, OBAMA & his.. Sun, 07 Jun 2009

Obama talks well and may well understand some of the geopolitical problems in the world. However, he does not seem to have a good understanding of solutions from the point of view of people's needs. He is following the policies of his predecessor and is, in fact, intensifying some of the mistakes of Bush in the economy and in Afghanistan. What I would share with him is the obvious fact that all empires go bankrupt and cause endless misery in the world while trying to perpetuate their hegemony as long as possible. The American empire will be no exception.

Topic: As we observe centrifugally¢ripetally Sun, 07 Jun 2009

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote: all i am keen on is to watch( within) this small snake I am ,and watch the snakes of others all the time. that calls for awareness, is it not?

There are several interesting aspects to this "snake" as you call it. Can we say that one aspect is that the danger and harm are not the presence of the "I" per se, but rather result from allowing its interference to govern behavior?

Topic: As we observe centrifugally¢ripetally Fri, 05 Jun 2009

"Obama is affected by the past holocaust killings..." So many people are affected by killings of others in the past and yet they go on approving of the ongoing killings of today. Yes, evil and violence beget more of the same. Why do you think that is the case? Why have humans not learned that simple reality and so allow the "dangerous snake" to reincarnate in the mind each time the politicians lie the world into war?

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