Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Pages from the Book of Life


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Sat, 27 Aug 2016 #361
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

Talking abourt 'lost and found pages from the Book of Life, here's a most fascinating NDE story told personally to Dolores Cannon by her friend Meg who was recovering from some lung surgery. ...

"So anyhow, I came through the surgery fine, but I felt like
hell because I hurt. I was hurting so bad all I could think of was,
when was the next shot? I’m putting this all in because I think
I have to be honest. I was drifting in and out, and I was being
given Demerol. So for the skeptics, they can say, “Well, she was
on pain killers.” It doesn’t matter. The skeptics are going to say
what they’re going to say anyway. About the third day in intensive
care, I fell asleep.

And suddenly I was going down a very long, dark canyon. I felt very, very warm and very, very secure, but it was the blackest canyon I’ve ever seen. They were like mountain walls that seemed quite far away, and then suddenly they seemed close.
At one point I looked on these mountain
walls and instead of being all black they almost appeared orange
with dark, flickering lights against them. It had something to do
with souls, but I don’t remember what it was. But it was a very
warm, secure feeling.
As I was going down the canyon I saw a very misty place just
ahead of me. And as I came upon it, I could see that there was
some kind of a rock barrier blocking the entire entrance to this
canyon. You couldn’t go on, but there was just enough room to
squeeze around it. There was mist everywhere.
And then I saw the people standing there. There were two
men, and another shadowy figure. All of a sudden, I recognized
who that person was, and then he was no longer a shadowy
figure. This is funny, but he looked like Gene Wilder used to
look in Willy Wonka. He had that wonderful curly, curly hair
and was wearing a suit with white piping. My first thought was,
“What is this?” And then all of a sudden I realized I was dying.
I did experience a moment of fear there.

Then this man in this suit said, “You are at death.” Those
were the words: “You are at death.’’ Then I realized that he was
the “angel of death.” He didn’t say it, but I knew it. And I
thought to myself he was a little intimidating. But when he said,
"You are at death,” it was so kind that I was not afraid. I was just
not afraid at all. He was so kind. And he was so efficient. It was
incredible.
And I remember pondering it; then nodding my head and
saying, “I know.” Now I’m going to say all of the rest of this in
a jumble because I was getting information simultaneously. It
was just coming in from impressions. Where someone said
something I will quote exactly what they said. My first thought
was, “There really is something after death! There really is!’’ I
was absolutely astounded. I kept saying, “But death is so easy.
It’s so easy. It’s like getting up out of this chair and sitting down
in that chair.”

These men were nodding their heads. And one of them said,
“Yes, but it is hard to get there.” I didn’t understand it, but that’s what he said. Then the man in the suit said, “And you are being given a choice.” I also got the impression that not everyone was given
a choice. That this was just at this particular time, at this point.

Then I also got the impression that this “angel of death” was not
this beings permanent position. I felt that he was just on assignment,
and that he wouldn’t always be having this assignment.
There were some other shadowy figures there, and I perceived
that they were there to help me. Because he said, “Do you
wish to stay or do you wish to go?” Now "stay" meant stay with
them; "go" meant go back. It’s not what you would normally
think. It was the reverse. “DO you wish to stay or do you wish
to go?” And I knew it was wonderful there, and I wanted to stay.
[Excited] And so I said, “I want to stay.”

I can’t remember his exact words, but he said, “There are
some things you have to know before you make up your mind.”
Then I was shown my mother and she was crying and sobbing.
And he said, “Now, your mother will be destroyed. And she, in
her destruction will destroy those around her.” And I’m sure he
was talking about my father. I perceived that her life would just
be over at that point. And in his love for her, his life would be
over. But I said, “Oh, I want to stay.” Because I perceived that
time was so fast there, that it was nothing.
They would be there
so quickly, and they would understand when they got there. I
also perceived another thing, that whatever way I chose was just
right. There was absolutely no judgment or censure, but what I
chose to do was the right thing to do.
Then I was shown my husband.
He was crying and he was saying, “I never knew I loved
her,” which fits in with the way the marriage was at that time.
I saw it would be very hard on him, but I said, “I want to stay. “

Because I knew that in just a little while everybody would be
there, and they’d all understand.
Then he said, “Now, your children will be all right, but they
will not go as far as they could.” But I still said, “I want to stay.”
I knew my children would be all right. Maybe not do as well as
if I was there; but they’d still not go under. To stay there was still
the most attractive choice. And then Death said, “Now, you will
have to stay close to your children.”
In other words, stay close
to the edge. And I was told I would have to guide my children.
I was just astonished, because that’s not what I wanted. I wanted
to go on over to this happy place and learn. I don’t know how I
knew I could learn there. It just came into my mind, and I knew.
I hadn’t seen it, but I knew the minute these people opened their
mouths, that this was a place that I wanted to be. I just knew
that there were answers there. "The" answers, I suppose. There
were studies; answers; growth. This was just instinctive, but I
knew it was a place I wanted to stay. I sure didn’t want to leave
it and go back to these problems. I wanted to be there.

But I reluctantly said at that point, “Well, if I have to stay close to the edge, I might as well go back. I’ve got these responsibilities. And
I can handle it better from that side than I can by just trying to
stay close to my children and influencing.” So I said, “Okay, I'll
go.” And they all seemed quite pleased that I had decided that,
even though there would have been no censure or judgment.

I felt as if I was beginning to pull back. And I saw those other
minor figures whispering, “She’s going to go. She’s going to go.”
I can’t remember if they disappeared or if they went around the
barrier. I think they went around the barrier. And I perceived
that they had been there to help me cross over. But they weren’t
needed so they disappeared. Then I started to pull. back, as if I
was leaving. And one of these men spoke up and said, “Before
you go, there are some things we want you to know.”

Instantly I was in another place. I wasn’t in the tunnel anymore.
It was kind of like a backyard, and there was a circle of
people. I’ve tried since then to guess how many were in that
circle of people sitting around in chairs. I would guess maybe
eight, ten men and women. I perceived that they were my council.
And I knew that every single person has a council that has
a responsibility for each soul down here. They sort of reminded
me of a country Sunday school group meeting out at the church
yard, maybe in the afternoon or something. I really couldn’t see
faces but this one person sort of "guided" me. I remembered his
bare arms and his rolled-up white shirt sleeves, very much like
men would do at a warm Sunday Bible-class type of
thing. He took me over to a girl sitting under a tree and she had
black skin, colored skin. And he kind of plucked at her skin.
[She made the motions of pinching the skin of her forearm
between her thumb and forefinger.) And he said, “This is so
unimportant-this skin. This is so unimportant. It’s just a little
covering. It is so unimportant, it’s laughable,” and then they
both kind of laughed. And I was thinking, “Why is he telling me
this? I know that.”

Then the next picture was . . . we were standing on a road, and
there was at least one of my 'counselors' with me. These two
young men of East Indian visage were walking up the road. And
they were there to show me my 'self'. Now I was standing there
and all of a sudden next to me was my 'self'. I saw a beautiful, very
large, brilliant, opaque shimmering sphere that I knew was
myself. And I walked around, and I entered myself, this sphere
of light.
(She illustrated with hand motions the act of entering
the top of this sphere and proceeding downward through it to
come out of the bottom.) And I knew that when I came out I
would have all my answers. I would "know myself".
And I did.
But when I went into the sphere I descended. It was like being
bathed in milky white, very comfortable. And I thought, “Any
minute now I will reach the center.” And soon I reached on
through and emerged out the other side, sort of at a downward
angle. I knew when I was in the center, but the center was
exactly like the periphery. In other words, the center was exactly
like the edges. Yet I perceived when I was in the edges and going
through and in the center and coming out again. But the center
was exactly like the periphery. They were just the same composition.
When I came out I knew myself. And I stood there, and
I felt embarrassed. I felt naked because I knew myself and I
perceived my good and my bad, and I made no judgment upon
myself. And I said, "I've got to work on that.” And they knew
me, too. They knew me totally. And they smiled and nodded.
And the nice thing was that there was no censure. Absolutely
none. No judgment.

This is where I get hazy. I cannot recall which came next. I
looked up and the sky was suddenly darkened, and it was filled
with stars. Some were huge and some were medium and some
were tiny, and they were of varying brilliancies but not one outshone
the other. Even if there was a very tiny one next to a huge,
brilliant one, you could still see each with equal clarity. And I
knew the "stars" were souls. I said, “Well, where’s mine?” And
someone said, “There it is.” I looked behind me and there was
my star. It had just risen off the horizon. And suddenly I was
there, in the place where my star was. And I felt like I was
interwoven into fabric. In that instant I knew that we were all
totally connected and that no matter what happened we could
not be destroyed. Even if something came and ripped the fabric,
the fabric would hold. I knew that I could not be destroyed, nor
could anyone else. That I was as I was as I am.

Then I was next back in the meadow, standing at that roadside.
And I looked out across this beautiful sunlit meadow and
there was a grove of trees. It was symbolic to me that there was
a grove, but I perceived that within it was the tree of life. And
suddenly, out of this grove of trees, came this enormous ball of
lightning. I just watched it as it flew across the meadow. And
it struck me right here. (She put her hand on her chest over her
heart area.) It was as though I had the breath knocked out of me.
It was as if every ounce of everything was sucked out of me and
I was consumed. And what came into me was total, pure,
unconditional love.
It was so incredible. It went into every cell,
and I could hardly get my breath. There wasn’t anything I could
give except love because that was all I was composed of.
It had
taken over every atom. And then I started coming back. And
someone shouted to me, and it may have been my counselor:
“Stay married. You’re meant to be married.” (Resignedly)
Which I have done.

I came back. And I woke up and I saw the nurse in the Intensive
Care Unit leaning over me with the most concerned look on
her face. She was watching me. And I thought, “Don’t worry,
I’m all right. I’m not going to die. And I won’t go away again.”
I also thought, “Oh, you don’t know where I’ve been.” I didn’t
tell anybody for quite a few days.

There will undoubtedly be debate about whether this incident
really occurred or whether it was a drug-related fantasy. But
Meg has no such argument going on within her. She knows it
was "real". There is no doubt in her voice as she relates the incident.
She knows because it changed her life forever.
As Meg said, “Maybe someone has to almost lose their life
in order to find it.”

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Mon, 29 Aug 2016 #362
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

More strange "lost & found" pages from Pupul Jayakar's K Biography

On my return to Bombay I underwent a very deep and inexplicable experience. My senses, torn from their routine, had exploded. One night as I lay down to sleep I felt the pervading touch of a presence, waiting. I was received and enveloped in a dense embryonic fluid. I was drowning, for I felt my consciousness fading. My body rebelled; it struggled, unable to accept this encompassing embrace, this "sense of death". Then the silent presence disappeared. This happened for three nights running. Each time, my body struggled; it resisted this encounter, unable to face this touch of death, which passed as swiftly as it had come, never to return. There was no fear. I told Krishnaji about it at our next meeting, and he told me to let it be, neither to hold it nor resist it.

Krishnaji had asked us to keep secret what we had witnessed at Ooty. We felt that he did not wish it to confuse the precision, clarity, and directness of the teaching. But by the 1970s Krishnaji himself started talking about it to many of the people close to him.

I asked, “Do you think that the physical brain cells, unable to contain or hold the immensity of the energy that was flowing into the brain, had to create the spaces in the brain to sustain it? Did there have to be a physical mutation in the brain cells themselves? Or was it like a laser beam operating on the brain cells to enable them to function fully and so contain the boundless?”

Krishnaji said, “Possibly that was so. After ( The Pepper Tree experience, 1922 in ) Ojai, Leadbeater could not explain the pain, nor could Mrs. Besant. The explanation given by them was that the consciousness of Krishnaji had to be 'emptied' for a fragment of the Maitreya Bodhisattva to use the body.”

When asked whether it was “Maitreya,” he ( K) neither said yes nor no. I asked, “Is it that we are witnessing the first mind that is operating fully, totally?”
“Possibly,” K said, “and that is what has to be done with the children here [at the Rishi Valley School].”

Krishnamurti, speaking in 1979 about the happenings in Ooty, said that for him the dividing line between life and death was fragile and tenuous. During the state when the body was a 'shell', the possibility existed that K could "wander away" and never come back, or some other elements that wanted to destroy the manifestation could harm the body. Therefore there could be no fear amongst the people near him at the time. Fear attracted evil.
I told him that while he was in those states, only the body was operating; there was an 'emptiness' in the body. The voice was childlike. K said, “Couldn’t you explain the two voices by saying that one was that of the body alone?”
I asked, “Only the body speaking?”
He said, “Why not?”
“Only a shell?” I persisted.
“Yes, why not?” Then K asked me, “Was the voice hysterical?”
I replied, “There was no hysteria.”
“Was it an imaginative state?” he asked.
“How could I know?” I replied.

K asked "What would happen the next morning ?" . I said we sometimes went with him for a walk. Krishnaji was alive, fresh. The pain (of the Ooty process) had left no mark, and he appeared to have forgotten what had happened. He laughed a great deal, looked at us quizzically, was affectionate, considerate, overwhelmed us with his presence, and had no answer to our questions. He said he did not know.

That same year, 1979, when K was in Bombay, some of us asked him to explain the phenomenon of the face changing. He said, “Many years ago I awoke and there was the face beside me. There was the face that K’s face was becoming. This face was with me all the time, happily. The face was extraordinary, highly cultured, refined.” He spoke as if his words related to another being. “And one day the face was no longer there.”
“Had it become one with K?” I asked.
K said he did not know. He also spoke of the need of the body to be protected. Nothing ugly should take place around it while K was away, nothing evil. In that state the body was defenseless, all kinds of elements wanted to destroy it. “When there is good, there is also the other.”

He was asked whether evil could take over his body when it was empty. His “no” was absolute.
“Then what could evil do? Destroy the manifestation?”
“Yes,” K said, “that is why there has to be love. When there is love there is protection.”

K also said that it was possible that the pain and what took place was necessary, as the brain was not ready. Traces of immaturity remained, the brain cells were not large enough to receive the energy. “When the energy comes pouring in and the brain is not capable of holding it, then that energy feels it has to polish it up. It may be its own activity.”

Speaking further of the need for two people to be with the body, K said, “Where there is love there is protection. Hatred permits evil to enter.”

When asked where does the consciousness of K go ? he replied, “I have asked myself what happens when there is no movement of the brain.” After some time he continued. “It ceases completely. Only when it has to manifest it comes. It ceases to exist when it is not there. Has air any "place", has light any "place"? Air is enclosed and so it is there. Break the enclosure, it is everywhere.”

He seemed hesitant to probe further. He said that he should not probe further. “You can ask,” he said, “and I will reply. But I cannot ask.”

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Sat, 10 Sep 2016 #363
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 305 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
What is important is a radical change in the unconscious. Any conscious action of the will cannot touch the unconscious. As the conscious will cannot touch the unconscious pursuits, wants, urges, the conscious mind must subside, be still, and not try to force the unconscious, according to any particular pattern of action. The unconscious has its own pattern of action, its own frame within which it functions. This frame cannot be broken by any outward action, and will is an outward act. If this is really seen and understood, the outward mind is still; and because there is no resistance, set up by will, one will find that the so-called unconscious begins to free itself from its own limitations. Then only is there a radical transformation in the total being of man.

Well John, it is about time to bring back this unconscious fields on the table..as it is that which really guides our steps, and one is not aware of it...

If this is right, for me it is according to many events in that field, I must say that for me the intellect, thinking, memory etc is useless, totally useless here is what I know, I have learnt that, yet with k ways of putting things it is wrong, as when you know you don't know and when you know you don't speak...but I do not listen to k so have no problem with that...

it may be true or not at some level but not at mine...and when this weird energy is there it is so beyond all that and as it works on its own, well as a "I" one has nothing to do at all...

again can I voluntary chase something that I do not know about ..because the unconscious if I have not met it...it is only a fantasy...

So k says his experiences with it here.....that is fine..and so what ? what is the way to that unconscious,again you are not going to like it but it is suffering, most suffering I know for myself where hidden within this unconscious ..etc

as long as suffering is perceived as a problem to run away from or to solve and not as a scream from the unconscious , well good luck to anyone...

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Sat, 10 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 10 Sep 2016 #364
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 305 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:

Daniel Paul. wrote:

, it is about time to bring back this unconscious fields on the table..as it is that which really guides our steps, and one is not aware of it...

Great idea, Dan, and indeed, why not ?
Now in the defence of K I would suggest that his use of the term un-conscious was quite literal- a lot of our racial and cultural programming (along with its huge bank of collective memory - and of which we are not 'conscious' - meaning that it does interfere in our everyday living but we just assume that it's 'us' or maybe we don't even notice it. On the other hand, the world of dreams is more 'open' to it, in fact we get immersed into this collective memory of our past.

What is un-conscious John, is probably( surely) all what you bring here as part of racial and cultural back ground and memories yes indeed..and yes it interferes with the everyday living..it is us or we don't notice it ,yes .

the world of dreams is more opened to it yes...I would even say that the world of nightmares is opened to it, more than dreams but this is only my own experience in that matter..

the content of the unconscious I mention here is not that, there is an unconscious zone dedicated to our unsolved personal problems created by the superficial thinking,which are stored somewhere now out of reach of the thinking as we know it....even with a huge intellect and a big IQ, it is out of reach...

it is a sort of pond where all our frustrations, unreachable desires, fear, escaping, misunderstandings etc etc..are stored waiting to be solved the right way....

some roots of what is called suffering is an appeal from those zones, they say : let us do our job, we can and must solve all that, just leave this sensation of pain alone it will guide as it wishes..but you must no expect anything nor solve it, you cannot as an "I" do that...

All those unsolved matters are alive and kicking...and this is what mostly non consciously we try to escape without knowing it....it is a disaster leading to all insanities ....

John Raica wrote:
And I can see K's point in wanting to 'conscient'-ise the unconscious since there is a vast reservoir of psy energies which are dormant there. So basically this is one of K's potential tools : when these 'unconscious' zones are awake, they act ASAP- as we all do in case of a cataclysm, fire or other emergency.

there is a matter of timing and priorities here...solving the unconscious problems by seeing them somehow is one....this needs another capacity which is usually dormant..

about this

John: So basically he would like to
bring this latent 'intensity' in the
field of our daily action and
perception
. Which would be just great
if this very 'un-conscious' wouldn't
have assume a right to veto or to make
(ASAP) culturally biased choices. So
basically there is very often an open
or hidden conflict of interests - and
the 'observer' might also impersonate
some of these 'un-conscious' trends to
which we have identified ourselves
with

Yes for the first part in bold letters...As far as I know, and it is quite hard to be define here, even to be sure in fact, but something X in this unconscious zone KNOWS, has access to the roots problems , can show them to the whole being and then problem is solved,whether it is shown entirely,or partially, whether not shown at all but one feels that something was solved as it is unmissable moment of pure relief which contains sole bliss with it...not the big huge one but it has the same taste.........

When comparing to the superficial zones it is more powerful ,have more capacities, non analytical of course etc..

Recently I was back to that out of a need which was there..

Dan ...........

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Sat, 10 Sep 2016 #365
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 120 posts in this forum Offline

This seems a good way to look at it John. For myself, contemplating this 'idea' (fact?) that we are in essence 'awareness'...and our not 'realizing' that, leads to a multitude of results. The big one as I see it is our (mis) understanding of 'death'. We think there is something 'wrong' with it and there is, but the wrongness is not in that natural process but in our 'tortured' understanding of it. So much craziness has come out of that 'ignorance'... The 'I' process is fine up to a point and very practical for us but the rigidity in the 'belief' of its actual existence (the 'self') has been a disaster; an ongoing disaster. (I watched a 'war movie' last night and it shocked me a bit to hear a lulling, sweet music being played in the background while the combatants were killing each other!)... Something I have seen in myself and perhaps is somewhat universal is that in the dream state, a need for 'recognition' seems always present when in contact with others, to be liked, to be accepted etc. Also very often, trying to find my way 'back home'(always a frustrating journey that never is successful!) Anyway, it's all very interesting...

It seems tremendous to contemplate the idea that our lives and our resultant societies, and cultures are 'escapes' from a deep, hidden feeling of loneliness, insufficiency, emptiness...that these 'exist' beneath the surface consciousness and on the surface all our 'attachments, dependencies pleasures, entertainments are all just ways to keep them quiet, hidden. In reading this last post, a 'why' question arose: why are these feelings in the 'unconscious'?, Were we born with them or did they get instilled in us in child hood? Why such 'dark' things in us?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 10 Sep 2016.

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Sun, 11 Sep 2016 #366
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 305 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Hi, Dan, I just finished to reader-friendly edit the last post in the What are the K Teachings thread. And since it was about the 'psychological' dimension of fear I've (in brackets) stretched the concept towards our 'subliminal' fear of the unknown - and here we're joining our 'un-conscious' topic. For one thing, it is 'subliminal' - meaning that for one split second you intuit something quite destabilising at the core of your psyche and ASAP you turn away from actually dealing with that acute sense of inner emptiness/insufficiency/loneliness and focus outwardly on the 'securing' things of life (a nice cup of tea ?) . The reason (also subliminal) is that if you lose foot in this inner 'personality' ground, it seems quite improbable that you will be able to face the 'real' outer world -as it presently is (full of 'urban warriors', 'natural' exploiters, frustrated exploited and so on).

Well John possibly (surely) the relative physical secure aspect of the fact to be alive is not antagonistic of the inner when we have seen intelligently that cooperation and equal sharing is the only way...this cannot be forced to be...of course..

So not only we are not close right now to such relative security but possibly we are as totally distant as it is possible to be from such inner mental state....we have believed in evolution, in expansion, in competition etc without knowing anything about it like having the widest possible view about all that...is the oak seed expanding into a big huge tree or is it changing of aspect..? does the seed contains the tree ?? etc

what I mean here is that one aspect of being alive is not intelligently dealt with at all, survival in our ways is fear so suffering so inadequate because we are competing so fighting so creating inner-outer violence and wars as well as destroying and mass killing..not all the time everywhere of course..,as to the other aspect which is to live what is unknown like death it has become practically non existent...

seeking security by competing is one of the most stupid and dangerous thing we could chose..yet this is our choice...based on selfish greed amplification by each one of us and the powers to keep us divided so insecure so searching for security in fight etc

John: So, I've figured out that in K's 'holistic' terminology this avoidance to face the inner facts is generally called 'escape'. So not only the 'fear' may be subliminal or 'un-conscious' but also what was causing it, the ( deeper existential) 'facts' cleverly swept under the carpet.....

well yes I see it that way too.
As long as only the superficial thinking process which is vital to survive in the instant as well as is able to project what needs to be too, as long as this is the only program at work we have, then what is unconscious for this level will not be seen...and when we know (or not), that this unconscious already have more intelligent capacities than the superficial like is able to solve pain sorrow, and much more..well we are sure to fail...

Then life is shallow ,misery, sorrow, a bit of joy here for a few seconds when having sex and attained desires and joy for possessions immediately followed by the fear of loosing it and the craving to have it again etc all that is suffering!! .... this life is competition,business ,war....the way we live in the western world and now all over the place inevitably brings war to steal what is needed for our comfort from many countries , the best way is to destroy the country..etc etc as well as because we do not want to cooperate our only option is to fight each other all the time and everywhere...etc..

And of course this is no ones fault....but it is because the bird eats the worm....

this is going on for millennium now...and despite a few awakened people, nothing seems to have change at all..

so all inner facts are under the carpet indeed...

At the global level well this is out of reach as it needs a minimum of "people" to reach a critical level where a radical change can eventually take place..

is left the personal level

back to fear, unconscious and what is subliminal..this is not a theoretical talk, it is based on facts of having this unknown for the superficial mind, this unconscious being revealed somehow,certainly not never ever revealed by active thinking so analysing as far as I am concerned....

one difficulty is that our superficial thinking does not know that, and it is revealed may be by miracle may be by the miracle to have got the pint of suffering as THE catalyst...certainly not by thinking ...

John Raica wrote:
So in terms of living skills, this incapacity or avoidance to see the inner facts was ( surreptitiously ?) translated in terms of ' We don't want to think about it' and our whole civilisation moved 'outwards'

yes for most, I keep sensing that this is a clear choice..

John Raica wrote:
Who wants to face his or her own 'insufficiency' or loneliness or again no-thingness
Of course, they may sincerely pretend to do it in forums such as these, but as no tangible 'rewards' are showing up...

So in terms of these 'un-conscious' trends in the modern human psyche, have you noticed the ever increased speed of thinking/talking/ acting/ working/ organising/producing/ selling & buying, consuming etc ? Economically we may think it's quite convenient but inwardly it looks more and more as a 'cover-up' trend for a growing violence and a solid 'existential' sorrow

yes I have..I feel it. A cover up ? yes no doubt..a running away too...as fast as possible, I sense a state of deep untold panic all over the place..

John Raica wrote:
To sum it up, the 'active' component of our collective un-conscious is manifested outwardly as dynamic cultural 'trends' , as generating 'teen idols' and many other various modern myths . And if 'time would stand still' this whole cultural infrastructure would crumble for lack of any true basis of universality....

indeed, but this is about the collective superficial cultural unconscious, I see for myself a different unconscious zone which is not not that order and needs to be exposed..as it has keys to start with for another direction...as far as I know this is suffering job properly lived which can do something about it..

this is why I insist thoroughly ....because as I see it this is unknown and escaped most if not all of the time ...

thanks for the talk..

cheerio...

PS: No reread so it may be .....??

Dan ...........

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Sun, 11 Sep 2016 #367
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 305 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
The 'superficial' thinking, Dan, is usually dealing with the facts of the 'outer' reality, and in regard to technology it is pretty 'thoroughful' And probably this is where the 'right' role of thinking should be restricted. While in terms of dealing with the 'inner' facts - which are constantly in movement & shifting, a different perceptive instrument would be required.

yes, a different instrument (s) is required and it exists, I met it like some did or do...it works on its own, when superficial thought does its part rightfully, and unlike thought already contains when at work a light and unusual energy, but you know that, yet it is worthy to say I think

John Raica wrote:
But the inner implications of this 'new' approach is that the 'knowing' mind should learn to move along with the dynamic of the 'facts'. Or this represents a major paradigm shift, since the 'observer' itself is becoming 'relativised' rather than fixed in its 'ego-centric' position which we all took for granted (culturally ) . And if and when it starts 'moving on' ...where's the ages old sorrow of mankind? So, there's an actual possibility of recycling and making good use of that whole reservoir. And therefore the new 'directly perceptive' instrument is constantly re-creating itself through listening and learning.

I do not know all the implications of this instrument(s), how would I, but it seems to work immediately as well as on the long term, in a quit secret manner, is there a guidance around the corner ?? well it is one way of putting things..I see that happening from time to time,always out of the blue...any idea, desire ,plan or hope will prevent its functioning is my actual view..I said "actual" because all that can modifies itself ..

sorrow is only the amplified form of a tiny signal never perceived for what it is, it becomes sorrow and pain if not more because we do not listen...as we do not know...

this "old instrument",if turning itself on, this instrument deals too with what is unconscious, personal unconscious , our unsolved self created problems...each time I had this very strong presence it started each time by a gloomy repulsive sensation, a sort of sorrow-suffering so, which was properly lived and when so it disappear instantly ..then when it is so this other instrument works...as far as I am concerned it seems to work on its own

I am not able to develop more than that nor would I now...as this is already something which has to be personally done....

John Raica wrote:
So back to the un-conscious trends of our psyche, this 'ego-centric' presumption is possibly the deepest. And the exit from this major existential paradox is for the 'ego' to ( psychologically ?) jump into the moving waters and to learn to swim...as it goes.

Yes right..back to that. I like the way you put things here, it sounds very correct to say so in my view....this ego must learn where it is good at and where it is not...so can it be able to teach itself to freeze its action when meeting a field which is not of its competence? yes indeed but only if it has previously seen somehow about that for itself by itself...

well too simply put but this will do for now...

cheers..;-)

Dan ...........

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Sun, 18 Sep 2016 #368
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

Continuing with 'lost & found' pages from K's book of life as related by Mrs Jayakar

Creation can only be when the mind is completely empty; whatever is born of that emptiness is negative thinking. It has no root, no source.

*

Something new is going on of which we are not aware... You are not aware of the movement, the significance, the flow, the dynamic quality of this change. We think we have time... There is no (more ?) time,... the house is burning.

*

How does the religious mind enter the unknown? It cannot come to the unknown except by ‘jumping.’ It cannot calculate and enter the unknown.

*

(Speaking of the Unknown he said) “The mind cannot come to it; the mind that measures itself in time must wipe itself away and enter into That, without knowing That. You cannot know it. It has no color, no space, no shape. You cannot make a statement about it. All you can do is to jump out of the old, then you won’t even know, for you are part of that extraordinary state.”

*

The Mind is a vast thing. It is not a spot in the universe. It is the Universe. To investigate the ( Mind of the ?) Universe demands an astonishing energy. It is energy greater than all rockets, because it is self-perpetuating, because it has no center. This is only possible when there is an enquiry into the inner and outer movement of the mind (we've got ?) . The 'inner', the racial unconscious, in which are the urges, compulsions, the hidden dark fears, is the story of man. How do you observe it ? If the observation is direct, then you are observing 'negatively'. Then the mind has no conclusions, no opposites, no directives. In that looking it can see what is near and what is far away. In that there is an ending. Such a mind
is the new mind. It has exploded without direction. Such a mind is the religious mind.

*

The mind that explodes without direction is compassionate, and what the world needs is Compassion, not schemes.
The 'new mind' is not within the field of knowledge. It is that state of creation which is exploding. For that, all ( movement of ?) knowledge has to come to an end. The new mind cannot come into being with authority, with masters, with gurus. With a burnt-out mind, you cannot come to the new mind. You need a fresh, eager, live mind.

*

What releases ( the new mind's ?) energy is direct perception. The greater part of the brain is the residuary animal and the remaining part 'undefined'. We live our life in the very small part. We never investigate. Sensitivity arises when you watch a tree, bird, animal, ant. Watch how you walk, bathe, dress; watch yourself (pretending to ?) being important. If you so watch, if you so observe thought and every emotion, flowering, then the brain is very sensitive; out of that, the flowering of the Mind begins. That is mutation.

*

To watch, to observe everything (directly) , is to be aware of totality, never to limit any thought, to let everything flower. A mind that is completely quiet, without any reaction, is only an instrument of observation. It is alive, sensitive.

*

Mutation is only possible when you have brought this about through awareness,and without effort. The challenge of the present time and of every instant, if you are awake, is to respond totally to something that is new.

This post was last updated by John Raica Sun, 18 Sep 2016.

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #369
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 305 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
How does the religious mind enter the unknown? It cannot come to the unknown except by ‘jumping.’ It cannot calculate and enter the unknown.

Hello John, many dreams, actually turning into nightmares because we try to run away say such thing, such doing, so that even already in the nightmare itself something takes place..

Such nightmare like attempting to run away as fast as possible from something unknown , the runner is so slow that the unknown is always right behind and then the runner is just exhausted, usually one wakes up before the main event take place, which is when the runner stops running...because it can't run away any more..

same sort of advice brought by a nightmare where the sea level is rising up so quickly that one is submerged by it without having time to escape.....the one wakes up sweating, meaning I refuse the unknown...the jump !

same type when one falls from a high cliff, then one wakes up too before the message had been delivered...which is there when touching the ground where one should be smashed...

etc..

Dan ...........

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #370
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
john above post is from face book of j Krishnamurti

Thanks, David, and of course, 'everything goes' on this particular thread, but... maybe you can explain our readers from where did you get that K 'pilgrim book'and how is this whole wealth of information to be used ?

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #371
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 305 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
the 'dreamer's' interpretation of the 'dream situation' is changing the whole experience- no learning whatsoever but 'escaping'. But then , this is happening even in inidents of our daily life.

did you mean incidents instead of inidents?

if so yes...

John Raica wrote:
On a different note, from Mrs Z memos, it comes up that K was also having similar issues with 'negative' forces. So in one situation K is explaining Mrs Z that he is creating a '(magic ?) circle' around every new location they were supposed to stay for a while. And one morning he's telling her of a 'nightmare' in which he was followed by some 'un-holly spirits' (?) and Mrs Z (kind of jokingly) asks him : why didn't you draw the 'protecting circle' ? And he says, I was trying to do it during the nightmare but I did not have time to complete it. So, Mrs Z says- So...it doesn't always work ? To which K replied: but it did: I woke up !

this is a situation I do not know as such because when I wake up and whatever takes place did not reach its end, well there is nothing in it but fear and sweating..so I cannot say, because when I wake up there is no message delivered or vision or whatever..I just know the one when you stop running away, or allow yourself to drown without resistance or keep falling from the cliff without waking up etc

if and when it reaches its end, there is understanding ,or vision, or nothing major but a feeling of peace, relief, and that all this is really strange "good"...etc

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Mon, 19 Sep 2016.

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #372
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
this is a situation I do not know as such because when I wake up and whatever takes place did not reach its end, well there is nothing in it but fear and sweating..so I cannot say, because when I wake up there is no message delivered or vision or whatever.

Hi, Dan, yes it was a 'typo'.
Personally I don't have such 'panic dreams' since a vey long time. But quite often there are 'given' dream situations in which somehow you are stuck- like a theatrical character (you) who has to act within a specific scenery not necessarily unpleasant but...sticky, and being stuck within it you're looking either for an 'exit' or for meeting someone you haven't seen for a long time , etc. My semi-educated guess is that we are 'visiting' areas of our collective consciousness ( or the collective un-consciousness ?) to which we feel attracted for...unknown reasons. Like having some 'real life-lessons' except that they happen in a 'virtual reality'. Sometimes they are 'chosen' (by us or by 'others') for a very specific reason, but more often than not, our 'un-conscious' mind is freely interacting with the 'collective' un-conscious. And there may not be a 'specific lesson' to learn or psycho-problem to solve , if it were not the 'dreamer's' total lack of 'freedom' in that virtual environment. Now, this is not just a purely 'psy' issue since many ( presumably) awake people around us seem to be 'stuck' in their everyday reality, like 'thinkers' within a virtual 'known' space. And it's looking prety scary if people who are unaware of this can get in a position of power and decide of other people's lives

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #373
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 4 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
david sharma wrote:

john above post is from face book of j Krishnamurti
Thanks, David, and of course, 'everything goes' on this particular thread, but... maybe you can explain our readers from where did you get that K 'pilgrim book'

I searched Facebook for J Krishnamurti and came up with quite a few pages. Not sure which one David is referring to. Here's the search results:

https://m.facebook.com/graphsearch/str/J.%2BKri...

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 19 Sep 2016.

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #374
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 14 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
The Pilgrim and his Holy Pilgrimage
Part 2. The Pilgrim and his Holy Pilgrimage

Beautiful title I hadn't come across before, just wonder what this pilgrimage is about and on what grounds classified as 'holy'! These days we must wonder to what extent this material is originally from Krishmamurti or at least approved by him, as with so much editing there may be many distortions of the original meaning.
Just revisited Huxley's foreword of 'The First And Last Freedom' where the author extensively talks about language and how it works on people's minds, and he tackles the subject right at the beginning of the foreword:'Man is an amphibian who lives simultaneously in two worlds - the given and the homemade, the world of matter, life and consciousness and the world of symbols. In our thinking we make use of a great variety of symbol-systems - linguistic, mathematical, pictorial, musical, ritualistic. Without such symbol-systems we should have no art, no science, no law, no philosophy, not so much as the rudiments of civilization, in other words we should be animals. Symbols, then are indispensable. But symbols - as the history of our own and every other age makes so abundantly clear - can also be fatal. (...) In the second case symbols originally ill-chosen were never subjected to thoroughgoing analysis and never reformulated so as to harmonize with the emergemt facts of human existence. Worse still, these misleading symbols were everywhere treated with a wholly unwarranted respect, as though, in some mysterious way, they were more real than the realities to which they referred. (...) Even the best cookery book is no substitute for even the worst dinner. (...) «Only the spirit» said St Paul, gives life, the letter kills». «And why», asks Eckhart, «why do you prate of God? Whatever you say of God is untrue». At the other end of the world the author of one of the Mahayana sutras affirmed that «the truth was never preached by the Buddha, seeing that you have to realize it within yourself.»'...etc

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #375
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

The Pilgrim and his Holy Pilgrimage
Part 1. The Pilgrim and his Holy Pilgrimage
Chapter 4. Krishnaji cautions about the influence of his personality.
IF MY PERSONALITY CAN SWAY YOUR EMOTIONS...
If your search for that understanding which is based not on the charm or the grand phrases or the light of another individual, but on your own desire, then it will last, otherwise it withers away... If you are really following your understanding of the Truth, you are following me, you are understanding me.
If my authority or personality can sway your emotions and your thoughts so the authority or charm of another may upset your whole understanding...
Do not be carried away by my words but think deeply of the Truth I put before you. If you understand and are really living that understanding in your daily life, then there will be no corruption or limitation of the Truth.
You will spoil everything if you base your understanding on individuals, even on Krishnamurti. There is a much greater thing than this form which you call Krishnamurti, which is life, and of that Life I speak, and of that life I urge you to become disciples and with that life I would urge you to be in love.
Do not worship me, but worship truth. Those who worship truth will worship everyone, and have respect for everyone, including myself. Truth cannot be conditioned by a being, though that being may have attained to the fullness of truth, as I have.
If you merely worship the form which holds the truth, truth in its fullness, in its magnitude, in its greatness will vanish and you will be left with an empty shell. It is because you imagine that Truth is far away, conditioned in one being, that while looking up towards that which is far away you tread on those who lie across your path.
In the heart of everyone is the desire for happiness and liberation. If you follow that desire, you steel your heart against all petty, unessential things, you will attain your goal...
If you follow me, a time will come when you will be bound by me and you will have to liberate yourself from me. So it will be much easier if, from the very beginning, you follow yourself, because you and I are one.
TO FOLLOW ANOTHER IS THE UTTER DENIAL OF THAT WHICH YOU ARE TRYING TO REALISE
I have insisted over and over again that you cannot accept what I say. You cannot follow Krishnamurti, because there is no Krishnamurti. You can understand the significance of what I am saying and you can, if you will translate that for yourself in practical life. But do not say 'Krishnamurti says this', 'Krishnamurti says that'. Do you not see that you are setting up another standard? You have thrown away other standards, put away other teachers and you are setting up Krishnamurti as another guide and another saviour. I wish you would see the vital importance of this, that to follow another is the utter denial of that which you are trying to realise.
You are caught up in your own creations, in your own half-truths, in your own gods. And a man who would show you how to be free, how to be in love with the eternal, you reject, because you say, 'That is too difficult.' I hold that when you have devotion for mediators and interpreters, it becomes more difficult and more complicated for you to have the simple understanding of life.
Do not be held in these shelters whose decorations invite you to easy stagnation and easy comfort. Stay rather outside in the open air and be in love with Life.
CONCERN YOURSELF WITH WHAT IS SAID, NOT WITH THE MOUTHPIECE
Please bear it in mind even while I am speaking that you should not accept anything that I say on authority, but rather examine it, analyse it with intelligence and balance.
I am speaking of the whole, the unconditioned, and if you would approach that totality of life, that fulfilment of life, you must not concern yourself with the mouthpiece, the instrument, but with what is said.
You are bound by your old traditions of teacher and disciple, the idea that the teacher gives and the pupil must accept. A true teacher never gives; he explains, he points the way. If a person of little understanding stops and worships at the shrine or a sign post, he will remain there for many lives until suffering urges him onward.

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #376
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

above is taken from face book of j Krishnamurti and the post is by
Siddharta Maitreya
September 15 at 9:12pm

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #377
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:

john above post is from face book of j Krishnamurti
Thanks, David, and of course, 'everything goes' on this particular thread, but... maybe you can explain our readers from where did you get that K 'pilgrim book'and how is this whole wealth of information to be used ?
John this person has access to the book he is punting it on face book one chapter at a time ,i do not know him regards

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #378
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 10 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
And there may not be a 'specific lesson' to learn or psycho-problem to solve , if it were not the 'dreamer's' total lack of 'freedom' in that virtual environment.

Without drawing a very precise distinction between dream and a non-dream state, the lack of freedom is the delay (not as a measure of time interval, but possibly the start of it from where it was last left out before) in grounding into the sense reality not as a matter of choice of one over the other, but out of inevitability; failing in which he/she jeopardizes not only other's life but that of oneself. Freedom and responsibility has to go together. Talking about the dream analogy, the movie Life of Pi talks of such a dream where the boy moves to an island which looks all pleasant and comforting in broad day light but turns carnivorous in the night symbolizing death; and which the essential self (portrayed as a tiger) that ensures survival stays away from.

contraria sunt complementa

This post was last updated by natarajan shivan Mon, 19 Sep 2016.

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #379
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
John this person has access to the book he is punting it on face book one chapter at a time

Thanks, David- it's hard to tell whether it's an old or a new 'Theosophical' compilation of some early K writings or simply a modern 'cloning' . But somehow this reminds me of the answer K gave to 'Mahatma' Gandhi when asked whether the lower castes should be allowed or not to enter in the Brahmin temples: 'It doesn't matter who enters since God is not there'

Same with all these texts, authentic or 'cloned'- the discovery of Truth is taking place only within our 'innermost' forum - and the way I'm seeing it K is providing the 'right' quality of approach or in his own words, he's 'holding a light' in which we can see clearly. But what we're seeing is something strictly 'personal'. Anyways, I'm getting all my unedited texts at the following site
http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/expanded-l...

This post was last updated by John Raica Mon, 19 Sep 2016.

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Mon, 19 Sep 2016 #380
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
Talking about the dream analogy, the movie Life of Pi talks of such a dream where the boy moves to an island which looks all pleasant and comforting in broad day light but turns carnivorous in the night symbolizing death; and which the essential self (portrayed as a tiger) that ensures survival stays away from.

Thanks, Natarajan, it is indeed a pretty good simile for our 'waking' and 'sleeping' consciousness- in the first case our brain has worked out a lot of self-protective mechanisms (including the 'domesticated tiger') while in the 'sleeping' case the 'daily' protections are no more operating or they are not working so efficiently and a lot of unsuspected 'psychological' dangers are becoming quite 'real' . From where the necessity of exerting a 'responsible' freedom at whatever level of consciousness we happen to be aware of.

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Fri, 23 Sep 2016 #381
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

john you might like to see this
https://youtu.be/A62gTiniX6Y

Historical Film of Young Krishnamurti - 2.

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Fri, 23 Sep 2016 #382
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

david sharma wrote:
you might like to see this
https://youtu.be/A62gTiniX6Y

Historical Film of Young Krishnamurti - 2.

Thanks a lot, David and thanks to Mr Mendizza who made these old time 'videos' available to all. Totally worth watching by any K 'afficionado' !

Speaking for myself, these 'videos' from the mid 20's and 30's provided the necessary 'hindsight' and somehow confirmed my working hypothesis that he was a 'top of the line' spiritual medium or in TS terms, ' a perfect vehicle for the World Teacher'. A man with a 'mission' rather than a man with a personal message- the mind of the vehicle being empty, the 'universal message' was just passed through undistorted (at least the spiritual 'light' of it) . Of course his brain gave it the 'overtones'- intensely emotional at first to totally 'compassionately stern' towards the end of his life, and on the side, enjoying life as it came to him - the R&R(&R !) joyful rationship in the 30's and early 40's as well as the TS sophisticatedly staged 'show' , and...we all know how it ended.

Which reminds me the first impressions about the young K, reminisced by one of his early reluctant 'followers'- he went to see K for the first time in 1936 at Ommen and as he and an older friend were entering the camp, they were jovially saluted by a young man riding very fast on bycicle- "who is this guy ?" he asked his more knowledgeable companion ? ' Why, that's Krishnamurti !'

To which the newcomer thought for himself: " What ? I've come all this way just to see a handsome 'Armenian', and by the same stroke missing the prestigious TS Convention that was going on at the same time in Bruxelles ? I can see everyday such nice looking Armenians in my own hometown !"

Needless to say that in the folowing days he got totally fascinated by the 'charismatic presence' of K, getting so addicted as to stalk him and peep through the small window of his tent. Until K noticed him and came out smiling: "Do you want to ask me something ?" " No, Sir, just to look at you !" And at that very moment he felt so terribly ashamed that the next morning he left Ommen for good. But later on the same gentleman, who was a also a pediatric doctor started studying very seriously K's talks and tried (alas, unsuccessfully !) to introduce highlights of K's Teachings , in the medical world as elements for a new... 'mental hygiene'. End of story

This post was last updated by John Raica Fri, 23 Sep 2016.

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Fri, 23 Sep 2016 #383
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 10 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
Of course his brain gave it the 'overtones'- intensely emotional at first to totally 'compassionately stern' towards the end of his life

An accurate observation imo, the risk (which runs even now) with the emotional overtone is that listeners could be carried away or get hooked by the emotions and miss discerning the element of force which moved him towards living the teachings.

contraria sunt complementa

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Fri, 23 Sep 2016 #384
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

john thanks for your input
Questioner: You say that your teachings are for all, not for any select few. If that is so, why do we find it difficult to understand you?
Jiddu Krishnamurti: It is not a question of understanding me. Why should you understand me? Truth is not mine, that you should understand me. You find my words difficult to understand because your minds are suffocated with ideas. What I say is very simple. It is not for the select few; it is for anyone who is willing to try. I say that if you would free yourselves from ideas, from beliefs, from all the securities that people have built up through centuries, then you would understand life. You can free yourselves only by questioning, and you can question only when you are in revolt - not when you are stagnant with satisfying ideas. When your minds are suffocated with beliefs, when they are heavy with knowledge acquired from books, then it is impossible to understand life. So it is not a question of understanding me.
Please - and I am not saying this with any conceit - I have found a way, not a method that you can practice, a system that becomes a cage, a prison. I have realized truth, God, or whatever name you like to give it. I say there is that eternal living reality, but it cannot be realized while the mind and heart are burdened, crippled with the idea of 'I'. As long as that self-consciousness, that limitation, exists, there can be no realization of the whole, the totality of life. That 'I' exists as long as there are false values - false values that we have inherited or that we have sedulously created in our search for security, or that we have established as our authority in our search for comfort. But right values, living values - these you can discover only when you really suffer, when you are greatly discontented. If you are willing to become free from the pursuit of gain, then you will find them. But most of us do not want to be free; we want to keep what we have gained, either in virtue or in knowledge or in possessions; we want to keep all these. Thus burdened, we try to meet life, and hence the utter impossibility of understanding it completely.
So the difficulty lies not in understanding me, but in understanding life itself; and that difficulty will exist as long as your minds are burdened with this consciousness that we call 'I'. I cannot give you right values. If I were to tell you, you would make of that a system and imitate it, thus setting up but another series of false values. But you can discover right values for yourself when you become truly an individual, when you cease to be a machine. And you can free yourself from this murderous machine of false values only when you are in great revolt.
Talk in university Hall, Oslo, September 5, 1933

This post was last updated by david sharma Fri, 23 Sep 2016.

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Fri, 23 Sep 2016 #385
Thumb_avatar david sharma Ireland 25 posts in this forum Offline

john wrote
Which again, is leading us to your 'topic of choice' - in order to 'see beyond the I' one would have to let go one's 'strong attachments' to its traditionally 'securising' role. Which in turn would imply creating ASAP a new inwardly direct-perceptive instrument- to provide for this very basic necessity of the human brain for a sense of inner well being and stability - which the 'I' was supposed to provide in the first place.
yes sir this is real problem for man to let go self and its self centered ways he wants to keep self yet go beyond he can never do that,this self as time must end ,

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Fri, 23 Sep 2016 #386
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 305 posts in this forum Offline

John Raica wrote:
in order to 'see beyond the I' one would have to let go one's 'strong attachments' to its traditionally 'securing' role. Which in turn would imply creating ASAP a new inwardly direct-perceptive instrument-

hello John..my own experiments at this level and what is factually lived so seen from there says that this instrument(s) already is ...

what we call thought is just preventing it to function..it acts like a dictator on the brain so like it does with others too...

This was and is there when properly living the effects of the weight, whatever the causes are, of a life spent in thought only , life with thought only being repulsive, for me on purpose, if one has or has kept enough common sense and sensitivity to...one self...

thought is not in charge of those other functions is what I see...etc

Dan ...........

This post was last updated by Daniel Paul. Fri, 23 Sep 2016.

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Sat, 05 Nov 2016 #387
Thumb_stringio Jess S Portugal 14 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti also wrote about the 'marvellous earth'and because autumn has arrived and he meant places like Brockwood Park to be part of it here it is from 'Beginnings of Learning': 'We had been walking through the English countryside among the open fields; there were pheasants, a clear blue sky and the light of the early evening. The slow quiet autumn was coming in. Leaves were turning yellow and red and dropping from the huge trees. Everything was waiting for winter... Walking along the fields and climbing over a stile you came to a grove of many trees and several redwoods... There were great blooms of hydrangeas and rhodendrons which would flower in several months, but none of these things mattered or rather they gave a benediction to this spot'

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Sun, 20 Nov 2016 #388
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

'So Spoke (the young) Krishnamurti'

Know Yourself by J. Krishnamurti ( printed in the May 1925 issue of The Herald of the Star magazine).

I think there is no more interesting or more promising subject, none more exciting, than the study of oneself. At the age 15 or 16, one is usually immersed in oneself. There is nothing else that interests a person so much. Later he falls in love with somebody; but still he is wrapt up in himself. There is, you find, much more intelligence shown in the study of himself, and very little thought given to somebody else. He quite willingly pays a palmist 15 Rupees to get him to tell us all about ourselves. And we feel quite comfortable in the thought that we are going to be great one day - without, apparently, having to struggle to achieve greatness. There is only one subject that really appeals to us and that is ourselves. We discuss ourselves, and in an approving sort of way consider how we behave, in what manner we evolve, and so on.

It seems to me that if we think entirely from that point of view, from the point which interests ourselves alone, we shall not understand why we exist, or why anything in the world, at all, exists. Of course it is true that one has to understand oneself first before one can find out anything about life in general. Philosophy, religion and other subjects have no real value, no real sway over an individual, or have only a modicum of influence, when they only point out how he can escape certain things, how he can avoid evil, and so on. But those of us who are Star members, or belong to such other organisations, should have some conception of a definite plan in evolution.

We are in a position to examine things roost valuable to the self - things that produce in the self the desire to evolve. In all of us there is the desire to find out for ourselves how far we can understand ourselves and what affects us. The average person is far more interested in himself than in anybody else. Luxury, comfort, happiness, everything must subserve his ends. When everything has been done to satisfy himself, then only one thinks of others. When I have had enough food and sleep, I turn to think about others. That is the average view. If you have had a surfeit of love, or of happiness, you are led to think of another.
But to achieve that happiness, we must find out how far we fit into a definite plan. We must be conscious that there is a plan in which each one of us has a role to play, and must have determination with which we shall act, with which we shall create the environment into which we shall either fit - or not; and if we are willing to look at it with the right attitude we shall be able to find out how far we shall fit into that plan. For me, I can imagine that the Gods that be have said that Krishna shall fit into a certain definite plan, and that whatever else he does, shall have no value, and as long as he fits into that plan, Krishna shall evolve and be happy. I was interested and watched myself, and I could see from year to year a definite change, a definite orientation, a definite transformation and I could see what my definite role was. And so each one of us must find out what path we shall tread and what shall be our special work.
It often happens that most of us are willing to go up to the altar and pour forth our devotion. Devotion however is, in varying degrees, in most of us, but it cannot and must not satisfy us. If I went to Dr. Besant and told her: "I am willing to serve you in any capacity. I am willing to sacrifice everything and my only desire is to work at the cost of comfort, independence, and so forth," she would say, "Oh, very nice; what capacities do you bring with you. In what manner can you render service to the Master?'' Devotion must have an outlet in physical work; and so if we have to determine what role we each one of us have to play, before we offer ourselves, we must find out what are our capacities. When to a Theosophist or a Star member or anyone, the call comes to "sacrifice everything and come to the Master," it is not enough to ask the Master merely to accept our devotion; we must give Him something that will enable Him to guide us. In other words, you must have certain capacities to bring with you to the Master and not go just empty-handed. If I can go to the Master and say "I can do this or that, I can write or paint or compose music or act," He will say: "All right, that is your way. Go and find out, discover what your talents are, and once you have found that out, you will know how to suffer and to serve." For there are very few indeed who can say, "I can do this; along this line lies my sacrifice in the work of the Master. We consider that we have sacrificed when we have done without something which we can easily give up.

If I had a vision of something particular that the Teacher wanted done, I would go about with a different mind. And if I needed wealth, I would go and accumulate it, not for myself but for the Master, and in accumulating it, I should know that I have to sacrifice, and have to put up with a great deal of suffering and misunderstanding. But it is the attitude that matters. We are afraid that our capacities may not lead us along the path laid down for us. So we have to find out before we can truly serve, in what manner each one of us can serve Him, in what manner we can offer our sacrifice, and in discovering what our path is we shall find out to which type we belong, whether to the type which goes to the world and evolves in the world, so to speak or is kept in a hot-house and evolves, like a plant, equally strongly. There are people who work in the world for a number of years, who work and do everything without finding out what the real purpose of life is. They discover what their purpose is by chance, but they have accumulated all that the world has to give, and when they come into contact with the spiritual realities they give up their all that they have gained, whereas those who have grown in the hot house apart from the world reach the goal by another path.
So it does not matter as long as you have learnt what both the war Ids can give, and not till then will you be able to serve the world. Just imagine a person who is brought up, say, in a temple where he is suppressed, where he develops complexes. When such a person goes out into the world, he has a thundering good time; and it is the same with the person who works in the outside world. You cannot evolve along one definite line. You must evolve all round and until then we shall only hinder and not help.

As I know my own path, so we must each one of us discover our own path and until that discovery is made we shall not be able or fit to serve the Master. Those of us who have imagination, who have in any degree the capacity to take an impersonal view of life, can find this out. But most of us have neither the desire to serve, nor the desire to attain our path or goal.
The trouble with us is that as in the outside world, we have our own vested interests. And as long as there is the element of selfishness, we shall not discover the path. Each one of us wants the Master to come down for us; but what we have not learnt is that even if, as we imagine, He came down from the clouds, we shall not be able to serve Him, because we have not equipped ourselves for rendering Him service.

We must find out in what way we can serve, and that means the complete upsetting of oneself, one's relations, &c. It is not that we have not the desire, not the same longing that great people have; but with us it is not constant. There is not the continuous pressure that keeps us going on and on and on. It means real sacrifice, means subjugating oneself in everything and not letting the self get on top. Then we shall not warp things to suit our prejudices, but we shall understand them in a complete way; in other words, become really simple.
We must have the courage and determination to give up; and when one has achieved and climbed some distance, one discovers how foolish is one who is struggling about what is so trivial, so common. There are so many subjects with which we are struggling in a complicated manner; but if we but let ourselves expand a little, all these subjects become simple, all complications vanish. But it requires constant watching of oneself, being on the look-out to see if one is doing the right thing or the wrong thing.

Each one of us knows these things through and through, and yet if the Teacher came and asked what each one of us could do, in what way we had acted during His absence, in what way we had fulfilled our role, what would our answer be? It is astonishing how we cannot change, as we should, like a flower. Our belief though strong, is not the belief of a man who acts with a fixed determination. Those are the people, however, that the Master wants for His service, and not those who are merely devoted, without that devotion leading to action. If one can set aside one's own evolution, and work and forget oneself in the work, then one is a true server and gets nearer to the Master. It may be that I am young, that I have not suffered as the old have suffered, but if suffering can damp out enthusiasm, it is not worth having. But what has suffering taught us?
As I said at the beginning, there is nothing so absorbing as the study of ourselves. That is the only subject that is worth thinking about; because it means change. There is nobody to force the older, and so they become crystallised. What matters is to find out what we can do and how far we can sacrifice; what our strength is and what our capacities are. When one sees people in an attitude of reverence, I often wonder what they have done by way of sacrifice.

In the coming years, either one has to adapt oneself quickly to the changing current, or go right out of it all. When you have definitely caught a glimpse of the Plan, however passing that glimpse, and know that you have to go on, you just go on, because it is much more fun than just marking time. What matters is that one must do something to change. Old age does not mean that you cannot change. On the other hand, it ought to be easier for the old, because they have had experience, and they have had suffering; and yet one goes on in the same old way of perpetual neglect. If you want to earn money, go and earn millions and offer them to the Master, and you can do it if you have the right attitude. And it is the same with whatever else you want to do - type-writing, shorthand or anything else you wish to make your special work for the Master. The attitude is what matters and when once you have attained this all the rest will follow.

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Sun, 20 Nov 2016 #389
Thumb_open-uri20161112-29145-yeg5ny-0 steve schuler United States 2 posts in this forum Offline

Very interesting to me, thanks for posting this, John. I have not previously read anything from this time period.

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Tue, 22 Nov 2016 #390
Thumb_photo_reduite John Raica Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

steve schuler wrote:
Very interesting to me, thanks for posting this. I have not previously read anything from this time period.

Thanks, Steve, I'll try to continue this 'sampling' of the Teachings in small steps - of one or a few years- just to see how K himself 'matured' along with his teachings. Here's a 1926 excerpt:

SO SPOKE (the young) KRISHNAMURTI IN 1926

THE VOICE OF INTUITION

I want, if I can, to put before you certain ideas, which you should cultivate, and which would give you a definite and intelligent conception of true spiritual life. I think all of you realize that to create, as you must create if you would live, there must be struggle and discontent; and in guiding these to their fruition, you must cultivate your own point of view, your own tendencies, your own abilities; and for this I desire to arouse in each that ( special ?) voice, the only true guide that will help you to create. The noblest guide each of us has is this Voice ( of spiritual Intuition ?) and it is in cultivating, in ennobling, and in perfecting this, that we arrive at the goal. Now what is this goal? To me it is to attain the Ultimate Truth. I want to reach a state where I know for myself that I have conquered, that I have attained, that I am the embodiment of that Truth, so that all the little struggles, the little disturbances of life -though they have their (relative ?) value- do not upset me, do not cloud the vision of the Truth. And in attaining this Truth I attain at the same time what I desire -the peace, the perfect tranquillity of mind and of emotions. This is the "goal" for me, and in cultivating and in ennobling (our spiritual ?) Intuition we must learn to think and act for ourselves. The cultivation of this voice of intuition means a life according to its edicts.

I want, if I can, to rouse in each one of you this (Inner) Voice, that shall guide you along the line you want to follow, that is your own life, the path of your own making. And as long as you obey that Voice, that Intuition, you cannot err. I can lay down the ( basic ?) principles of Truth, but through your own Voice, through the obeying of that Voice, you must develop your own intuition, your own ideas, and so you will come to the 'goal' where we shall all meet (eventually ?)

This is for me the 'big thing' in life: Instead of being the ordinary and the mediocre, (if ?) you will listen to this Voice and cultivate this Intuition, to discover new avenues of life instead of being swept aimlessly along the path of another.

In realizing this ideal, as I said, you must develop your (own ) Intuition. A perfect harmony of emotions and of mind is essential, so that intuition, the voice of your true self, can express itself. Intuition is the whisper of the soul; Intuition is the guiding word in our life. The more we harmonize (integrate ?) our strong feelings and keen mind by perfecting and purifying them, the more likely are we to hear that Voice, the Intuition which is common to all, the Intuition which is of humanity and not of one particular individual. You must have strong feelings, whether of love, of intense happiness, of real kindness. A person who has no feelings at all is useless; a great lover (of Life ?) is never mediocre or small. The more feelings you have, the better; but at the same time you must learn control, because emotions are like weeds, and unless you restrain them, they will spoil the garden. If you have weak emotions, but give them nourishment day by day, they will strengthen and grow. The idea that we should have no feelings and emotions is absurd and unspiritual. The more you are bubbling over with feelings, the better; but you will find you have to control them, and if you do not, you suffer. If you do not control them you are going farther away from your Intuition, you are wandering away on the bypaths instead of walking on the main road towards your goal. Have tremendous feelings. Sport yourselves with them.

Do not be negative, but go out and be 'adventurous'. I feel this so strongly, because we all tend to become of one type (inwardly standardised ?) ; we all want to think along the same lines, we all want to flock around the same person, we all fear that if we do not belong to this or that movement we shall not advance. What is advancement? It is your own happiness -advancement is only a word. I would rather be happy than gain all the petty satisfaction that the world can give. What does it matter to which religion you belong, what glories you bear, so long as you 'feel really happy' and can keep your goal absolutely clear and undimmed? Imagine for the moment the Lord Buddha and His disciples. They were the great exceptions of their Age. They all had one Master, one goal, one ideal, and that was He. And yet they ( were supposed to have ?) had, every one of them, the spark of genius; they were not mediocre, because they followed Him who was the exception, the flower of humanity, and such examples must we all become.

This post was last updated by John Raica Tue, 22 Nov 2016.

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