Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Your daily life - QOTD


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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #1
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

I’m putting this up for discussion because a couple of forum members as well as members of the General Forum have said that you are NOT all that K is describing, but you are Awareness or formless awareness or something similar. K always steered clear of making any ‘positive’ statement like that about what we are, and instead, talked about understanding what actually is...the actions and thoughts in our daily living.

Group Discussion 6th December, 1947 | Madras, India

“It is very important to free the mind where it is, in your daily life, and to be aware of the words you use, the gestures, the attitudes, the motives, and the intentions. After all, what does it matter whether you believe in a Master or not, or what kind of ceremonies you perform? What does matter is what you are thinking, what you are doing.

A man who came to see me, wanted peace of mind. When I asked him what he was doing in his daily life, he said "That does not matter, I am only speculating". He is a speculator, dealing in money, bullion. How can such a man have peace of mind and how can he have God when he is hoarding, cheating, making people miserable by his actions? If at all he thinks he has peace, that will only be a deception, a self-deceit. To have peace, he must not speculate, he must not destroy others.

Similarly, those who wish to find Truth must free themselves from all bondages.”

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 29 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #2
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

If my wife says she wants to leave me, there’s an instant reaction, be it fear or anger or despair . If someone insults the Jews or Muslims I react. It’s this conditioned reaction that needs to be understood, no? Not imagining that I am in essence pure Awareness. For the mind that is conditioned that would only be an idea or speculation or belief, no?

Let it Be

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #3
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
If my wife says she wants to leave me, there’s an instant reaction, be it fear or anger or despair . If someone insults the Jews or Muslims I react. It’s this conditioned reaction that needs to be understood, no? Not imagining that I am in essence pure Awareness. For the mind that is conditioned that would only be an idea or speculation or belief, no?

Isn't the point of 'choiceless awareness to "understand" it all, rather than pick and choose which activities to understand?

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #4
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Isn't the point of 'choiceless awareness to "understand" it all, rather than pick and choose which activities to understand?

As I understand K, the point is to understand what actually IS now...whatever is present in you now , be it fear or greed or anger or ambition or ....

Let it Be

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #5
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
As I understand K, the point is to understand what actually IS now...whatever is present in you now , be it fear or greed or anger or ambition or ....

your ideas about speculation, about not being awareness in essence, about not believing...your belief in "evil" etc., etc."There's no division" as he says. It's all conditioned, isn't it?

Check out John R's post today Tom of the K.-Bohm talk, if you haven't already.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 29 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #6
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
. It's all conditioned, isn't it?

Yes I’m quite certain

Let it Be

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #7
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine quoting K wrote at #1:
It is very important to free the mind where it is, in your daily life, and to be aware of the words you use, the gestures, the attitudes, the motives, and the intentions. After all, what does it matter whether you believe in a Master or not, or what kind of ceremonies you perform? What does matter is what you are thinking, what you are doing.

Tom,

To say that I am “really” something else than what I am in this moment is also speculation. Whatever I am, whatever I feel, whatever I perceive in this moment is what I “really” am. If that is so, the only thing one can say about "what I really am" is that it is constant movement or change. To say that, beyond, above or beneath this constant movement, I am really ONE thing - that I am really love, or part of God’s plan, or awareness - is an idea. That is, it is not directly perceived. I can have an idea for a new recipe, for a new technology, a new process, and so on, and it can turn out to be useful. If useful, I use it. If not, I discard it.

But is there a need for an idea about what the human being “really” is? Doesn’t the idea itself appeal to the discontented mind? Is it of any interest to the harmonious mind? When the present is unpleasant, the mind wants to BE “something else”. When the present is agreeable, the desire to be something else is absent. Do I care what I am beyond, above or beneath anger, fear, and so on? Or do I want to understand the root of fear and anger?

I DON’T understand or perceive that I am “really” awareness, and no amount of repetition, no argument, no opinion, no authority makes me see it. My clear understanding is that it is an idea. Of course, someone else can and will say that “my clear understanding” is also just an idea or speculation. That is the difficulty. There is no “proof” either way. But if, as you and K suggest, we merely observe our daily life - what we think, feel and do - then we don’t waste energy clashing over esoteric ideas.

There does have to be a shared interest and "intensity" to talk these things over with another. And one obviously doesn’t HAVE to talk things over with others. One can observe and learn quietly by oneself.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #8
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 212 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
the point is to understand what actually IS now...whatever is present in you now , be it fear or greed or anger or ambition or ....

There is Nothing present in me now. Being, Naming, Holding is just more confusion. Do not try to observe what the observer is observing. Nor try to observe the observer. Neither try to grasp them nor try to let go of them.

I Don't know is a more accurate place to start.

Look, see, let go

This post was last updated by Douglas MacRae-Smith Wed, 29 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #9
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
I Don't know is a more accurate place to start.

And finish?

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #10
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Tom,

To say that I am “really” something else than what I am in this moment is also speculation. Whatever I am, whatever I feel, whatever I perceive in this moment is what I “really” am. If that is so, the only thing one can say about "what I really am" is that it is constant movement or change. To say that, beyond, above or beneath this constant movement, I am really ONE thing - that I am really love, or part of God’s plan, or awareness - is an idea.

Yes, that’s what I’ve been trying to get across to Dan and others who’ve been saying, “You are Awareness” or “You are always in the embrace of pure Awareness or Silence”. This kind of statement was uttered countless times on the General Forum a while back and one member was banned for repeating it so many times he was like a gramophone record with the needle stuck in the grove.

Let it Be

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #11
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
There is Nothing present in me now. Being, Naming, Holding is just more confusion. Do not try to observe what the observer is observing. Nor try to observe the observer. Neither try to grasp them nor try to let go of them.

Douglas,

Whatever was present in you in the NOW, in the actual moment you said the above words - you say “nothing” - is it constant? Is every "now moment" nothing? Never anger, fear, confusion, pleasure, joy, etc?

Looking carefully at your words, it also occurs to me that your words came from something. Or did they come from nothing? Where did your statements come from: - “Do not try to observe the observed or the observer, neither try to grasp or let go”? Is the source of those statements “nothing”?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 29 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #12
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I DON’T understand or perceive that I am “really” awareness, and no amount of repetition, no argument, no opinion, no authority makes me see it.

No, agreed that none of the things you mention will make you see it...but can you allow for 'insight'? That someone glimpses the 'truth' of it and then wishes to share it. (As Douglas said, we're herd animals) But the sharing of course, will not be the insight, it will be words attempting to describe what was seen, perhaps in only a flash. No proof is possible and it may be some sort of fantasy or hallucination. It may all be wishful thinking or... it may be as simple as someone trying to share an insight they had. And as a result of that insight, a change takes place in them?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 29 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #13
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
But is there a need for an idea about what the human being “really” is? Doesn’t the idea itself appeal to the discontented mind? Is it of any interest to the harmonious mind? When the present is unpleasant, the mind wants to BE “something else”. When the present is agreeable, the desire to be something else is absent. Do I care what I am beyond, above or beneath anger, fear, and so on? Or do I want to understand the root of fear and anger?

And the idea that I am fear or I am anger is an idea. But beneath the idea is a fact.....a strong feeling or conflict or emotion. That’s ‘what is’...what I am at the moment of conflict... underneath the labels

Let it Be

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #14
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 212 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Is the source of those statements “nothing”?

Good question! I won't try to answer. I can't see how to make a correct statement.
Would it be better if I said that the source of those statements was not a thing ? If I said that I was the source, would that be more, or less confusing?

"There is Nothing present in me now" is trying to indicate that any idea the self has about itself should not be reified.

Look, see, let go

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #15
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote at 12:
can you allow for 'insight'? That someone glimpses the 'truth' of it and then wishes to share it. (As Douglas said, we're herd animals)

ARE we herd animals? I don’t see it that way. I see that we have the tendency to conform, to accept, to believe, and so on, all for the sake of security.

Even if we ARE herd animals, are we bound to that? Is it an inescapable condition? If we are herd animals, can we have insight?

As you say, it may not be insight that is shared but an experience, a vision, a conclusion, a belief, a delusion. Then what good is it to me if someone shares a description of their insight, which might be delusion?

The only insight that matters is my own insight, my own understanding. I don’t understand everything K says but I don’t listen to him because he claims to have insight. I listen to him because there's a part of what he says that I completely see and understand and it has fundamentally changed my perception and understanding of myself, of the human mind, of relationship, action, consciousness, and so on. It has fundamentally changed my approach to action and relationship. I think K might be mistaken about certain things. I think he was not always truthful. I think he was afraid at times.

I’m not implying or claiming that I have been completely transformed or that I’m totally free. I could be fooling myself. I could be crazy.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 29 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #16
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
I won't try to answer. I can't see how to make a correct statement.

Don't answer then. Can't one look inwardly and see what is fueling our words? It can be fear. It can be insight. It can be compassion. It can be anger. And so on.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #17
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
what I am ... underneath the labels

Yes. Underneath the labels, there is movement within. There is life.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 29 Jan 2020.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #18
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
As you say, it may not be insight that is shared but an experience, a vision, a conclusion, a belief, a delusion. Then what good is it to me if someone shares a description of their insight, which might be delusion?

The only insight that matters is my own insight, my own understanding.

Yes, I'd say thatwe can have insight after years of approaching these K. ideas and others. But they come as far as I can see through one's experimenting. If you see them in yourself, they're no longer K.'s or anyone's. Whether in the sharing they are any "good" to someone else, I don't know, but this is a forum and that is a place I suppose where this kind of sharing can happen.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #19
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Whether in the sharing they are any "good" to someone else, I don't know

If you share food with me, I can eat it. If you share your car with me, I can go places. But how can you share insight (if it IS insight) so that I can have it too? You can't, can you?

We can "share" our interest and passion in the sense that we both have the same interest and the same passion. Beyond that, we can talk and listen to each other, look into it together. Not share insight, as I see it.

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Wed, 29 Jan 2020 #20
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3260 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Yes. Underneath the labels, there is movement within. There is life.

Right. There’s an explosion of anger, for example. Before I even have a chance to think, “I’m angry”, there is the actual feeling/emotion. If you tell me, “You are not the anger...you are formless Awareness...you are Silence”, that doesn’t do away with the actual fact of the anger...fear...etc. Again from the QOTD: “It is very important to free the mind where it is, in your daily life...”

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 30 Jan 2020.

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 #21
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1718 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
If you tell me, “You are not the anger...you are formless Awareness...you are Silence”, that doesn’t do away with the actual fact of the anger...fear...etc. Again from the QOTD: “It is very important to free the mind where it is, in your daily life...”

Tom nobody is "telling you that you are not the anger", of course you are. And it seems you also want to "do away with the actual fact of anger" Well there is the conflict isn't it? Can you be aware of that conflict in yourself without any movement? Until that conflict of 'you' against yourself, the battle of the opposites,is ended, whether or not you are in essence 'awareness' or anything else is beside the point. That's what "freeing the mind means isn't it, ending this battle of you wanting to end what you object to in yourself? Any motive pollutes the investigation, doesn't it?

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 #22
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Until that conflict of 'you' against yourself, the battle of the opposites,is ended, whether or not you are in essence 'awareness' or anything else is beside the point.

Dan,

I can’t speak for Tom but that's what I’m also saying: that “whether or not you are in essence 'awareness' or anything else is beside the point”.

And if conflict does end, then does it still matter what you really are in essence? If conflict ends, then you are what you really are. And that might still be a constant movement, as the universe is in constant motion.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Thu, 30 Jan 2020.

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 #23
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5683 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
“whether or not you are in essence 'awareness' or anything else is beside the point”.

I feel it is as Huguette says.

It may be that “ultimately”, “beyond what I appear to be”, there is another reality, or an actuality, beyond thought. And some person might claim that there is. But what does that mean to me? What effect does it have on my life? Am I to “believe” the person’s claim? Surely not. There is no sustenance in a belief. Why should I believe this person to be ....trustworthy? How do I know he is not deluding himself?

This is not to say that I entirely dismiss what the person is saying. It may be true. But unless I can perceive it myself, it is worse than useless.

Let us imagine that it IS true, that we really are “pure awareness”. That is our true nature. (although to imagine that, one has to ignore the basic question, how do I know if it is true or not). And let us further imagine that I, in some way, accept this as a fact. So we have a situation where it is both true, and I accept it as true. But this is still useless, isn’t it? My acceptance is still not the actual thing. The actual thing is not permeating, enthusing, my life. The actual fact is still the fears, the suffering, the ambition, the conflict, the passing pleasures. And perhaps the added complication, an additional conflict, has now crept in – that I SHOULD BE different, I SHOULD experience life as pure awareness. This is why I say accepting such a premise is worse than useless.

So whether I am pure awareness or not does not seem a significant question. What has significance, does it not, is to enquire into what we are? Which may not be a fixed thing anyway.

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 #24
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5683 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
And the idea that I am fear or I am anger is an idea. But beneath the idea is a fact.....a strong feeling or conflict or emotion. That’s ‘what is’...what I am at the moment of conflict... underneath the labels

Hmmm. Can I suggest the following (Probably I am repeating K):

At some instant, as a reaction, anger comes. It can be felt in the body, there are various symptoms. Can one then say "I am anger" - asking that question not from a state of anger, but sitting here now.

Then comes the recognition of that anger. "Recognition" implies words, does it not? Like "I am angry". But these words are not actually the state of anger, are they? They are a description. Can one then say "I am that description", those words? Which implies what I am has already changed. I am no longer anger. Although that anger may return, perhaps immediately.

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 #25
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5683 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
I think he was not always truthful. I think he was afraid at times.

I find this interesting, with perhaps the potential for real enquiry. Would you like to take this up, Huguette?

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 #26
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 832 posts in this forum Offline

Clive,

I’m not asserting that my perception of K sometimes being afraid is right. Whether or not he WAS afraid at times, it doesn't change anything for me. If he did feel fear or conflict, it doesn’t darken the light that his words shine on self, mind, action, relationship, sorrow, and so on. I don't listen to K because I believe that he was infallible. I listen to K because his words actually shine a light on the human condition such that I can see for myself the truth of what he says (not everything).

So I don’t see the need to enquire into whether he felt fear or conflict. Such an enquiry can only be speculative. It also can’t shed any light on what really matters, which is self-understanding. Do you see it differently?

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 #27
Thumb_open-uri20200202-16653-rg2qz5-0 Mina Martini Finland 418 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Dan>Isn't the point of 'choiceless awareness to "understand" it all, rather than pick and choose which activities to understand?

Tom:>As I understand K, the point is to understand what actually IS now...whatever is present in you now , be it fear or greed or anger or ambition or ....

Mina: Yes, to understand actually whatever appears to 'be there' at any moment...but to understand ACTUALLY anything at all (versus reacting by more thought to any experienced condition Tom listed above) can only happen by being choiceless aware, which is NOT an acitivity of thought at all because thought is choice that it makes within itself. The choiceless awareness is no different from 'pure awareness' which Tom mentions earlier in his replies and which is of course something altogether different than creating an idea out of it.

To understand anything fully is the ending, the transformation of it.

So there is no contradiction or real gap between talking about awareness and greed for example. They are not in any opposition, only for contradictory thought that might appear so. At the heart of the greed itself lies freedom from it.

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 #28
Thumb_open-uri20200202-16653-rg2qz5-0 Mina Martini Finland 418 posts in this forum Offline

A part of what Huguette says in her previous reply to Clive, worth quoting again..

So I don’t see the need to enquire into whether he felt fear or conflict. Such an enquiry can only be speculative. It also can’t shed any light on what really matters, which is self-understanding.

Mina: Yes, absolutely..

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 #29
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5683 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
o I don’t see the need to enquire into whether he felt fear or conflict. Such an enquiry can only be speculative. It also can’t shed any light on what really matters, which is self-understanding. Do you see it differently?

I did not make myself clear, Huguette, sorry. What interested me was your saying:

I think K might be mistaken about certain things.

Would you care to go into those things? That may have relevance to our self understanding.

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 #30
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5683 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
At the heart of the greed itself lies freedom from it.

At last i understand this statement, which you have made before, and similar statements.

It is contained in the QOTD, is it not:

You will know what is freedom when you are deeply conscious of the walls of your prison, for that very awareness dissolves the self-created limitations.

.

Mina: To understand anything fully is the ending, the transformation of it.

Yes, I feel it is so, only in understanding is there complete ending of something. or rather the ending of the false.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Thu, 30 Jan 2020.

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