Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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How to advise a young person?


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Mon, 07 Oct 2019 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

How to advise a young person?

I am in contact with a young person, a girl, 17 years old. She is a sort of relative, by marriage and lives in England. From time to time I met her, and her young brother, as they grew up. They were lovely children, bright, cheerful, interested in many things, communicative, enquiring.

As – let us call her A – went into early teens, she changed greatly. Although I hardly saw her, I had reports about her from a near relative. She could not ‘fit into’ her school, and also her relationship with her mother became – well, perhaps non-existent is the best description. Certainly stormy, with very little sympathy, empathy, between them.

At times A would write to me, and at one point we moved our communication to Whatsapp. I would get desperate messages from her, but she would abruptly disappear for weeks. At first I would write her quite long emails, but as these seemed to elicit no response, I gave up on that, and just talked to her whenever she appeared on Whatsapp. There were things she would not go into, or just made cryptic reference to you, but I got an overall picture from my relative. Visits to this relative of mine seemed to be the only respite for A, a place where she could relax, feel happy. But at home and school she was becoming more and more alienated. Her messages to me were mostly despairing, desperate. And she would instantly withdraw if I inquired into certain areas of her life – as she did with my relative. She would disappear from school, or after school. Eventually there was what seemed to be a near-suicide incident, near a railway bridge. She was referred for counselling, to see a psychiatrist, she was prescribed some ‘medication’. She once described to me how there was a voice in her head; “a lady”. I think I was the only person she told this to. She finds me sympathetic, non judgemental.

I may have drawn a picture of a typical rather depressed young person, but that is not the case, I feel. A has some special qualities. She sees the world around her for what it is , the hypocrisy the conformity, the lack of caring

“How does knowing about electro magnets equate to how much value I hold as an individual?”

“I find myself often very saddened at human relationships and how artificial they are”

“you need not know all the facts perfectly to care. But you certainly do not need become satisfied in what you believe. No, I’m just annoyed at everyone. Me included”.

“I fear myself.There are parts of me that I fear and yet I cannot even see them fully. They just feel within me like this deep humming. I do not know myself fully. I fear who I am.

“I am not willing to become satisfied and numb into my surroundings”

She saw the education system that she was in, that she is in, for what it was. The false, destructive values that it tries to inculcate into her, of selfishness, competition, conformity.

She seems to have a feel for nature, and certain powers of observation.

At times I find it very difficult to understand what she is writing. At times there is just a plaintive “Why can’t I just be happy?. Why can’t people show me how to be happy?” for her

There is a great deal more I could write. But basically, as I see it, here is a perceptive, sensitive young person, creative, but with no outlet for her feelings. There is no one around her with whom she can truly communicate, share, and so she withdraws. She has very valuable traits, but far from being encouraged, they are regarded as something inappropriate, wrong. She sees the world as it is, but this perception is overwhelming her, she does not the strength (or whatever the quality is) not to be overwhelmed by her perceptions.
She had pinned her hopes on changing her school after ‘O’-level examinations, but she quickly saw that the new school is like the old one.

Why am i writing all this. Really I am asking if anyone has any useful suggestions on how to respond to her. How to advise here, although I am not entirely happy with that word “advise”. And perhaps beyond this particular case, one is asking what to say to all the young people that one meets? They have to grow up, meet a world that is utterly ..... well, you know what it is. If they at all sensitive, what can they do? The education system does not help, it is a major part of the problem. Their parents, for the most part, are only concerned with their own petty security, or the semblance of it. They are in denial of what is happening in the world, its collapsing. What can one possibly tell children? Is there any profession, any work they can do that is not corrupt?

So, both relating to this particular example of the problems of the young, and in general, does any one have any suggestions?

I finding writing this has helped me, certain suggestions, a an idea of a certain approach, have arisen in me. But I am interested to see what others have to say.

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Tue, 08 Oct 2019 #2
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1433 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
What can one possibly tell children?

Well aren't most of us 'A'? What did we do? I think that "advice" is pretty useless unless it's about practical things. I would say that probably 'listening' with love is the only thing we can do for each other. The exposure to love may work in ways that we can't imagine.

Also involvement in the wonders and the beauty of nature seems to me so important.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Tue, 08 Oct 2019.

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Tue, 08 Oct 2019 #3
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

From an email from A today:

Should I change myself so much for a system? What if I can't get that back you know? I don't want for it to be changing me for the worst and for so I not even realise

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Tue, 08 Oct 2019 #4
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 737 posts in this forum Offline

For dear "A", perhaps something like this:

For me, these are good and valid questions.

When you ask why you should change yourself, what is this “myself” you don’t want to change? Is it that you don’t want to “change yourself" or is it that there is something within which prevents you from conforming to a system which is clearly corrupt, unfair, unjust and brutal? It is your freedom which is in question, isn’t it? Freedom is to be true to one’s inner understanding, not to conform to what authority imposes. Freedom is not given to anyone by a system. One’s inner understanding is “the voice” or flame which guides us.

We are pressured from all sides to conform to a brutal and corrupt system. We are told that our system is the best possible system, that it is not perfect yet but that “eventually” it will be if we conform to it for the common good. In effect, we are told to disregard the corruption we see for ourselves and to fall into line.

You are not alone in feeling this way. There are many who reject the conformity that society demands. There need be no anger in this rejection. One simply finds oneself unable to comply in blind obedience. To comply would be living in pretense, inner contradiction and falseness.

But still we must act in life. Life demands that we act, that we “do things”. What does someone DO who finds that he or she is unable to conform, that there is an inner flame which prevents it?

I have no easy answers for you. This is the life into which we are born and it is up to each one of us to find out what is the right action in all our relationships as we move through life. It is up to each one of us to understand what our actions are based on, what is right action and what is false. If we merely rebel against the system out of hate, anger, despair, disgust, then we are merely replacing the pattern to which we are pressured to conform with another pattern. Then we produce another system which is just as corrupt and unjust as the one we rebel against. Then we produce another system on which to base our relationships. And this other system - like all systems - will also demand conformity. Isn’t it so?

So, as I see it, the very observation of the falseness of the system is only the beginning of an enquiry to which there are no predetermined answers. To enquire demands patience and honesty. It is an endless enquiry born of the refusal of inner contradiction which comes of conformity, and of the passion for truth.

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Tue, 08 Oct 2019 #5
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Well aren't most of us 'A'?

In what way, Dan? Of course we are all each other really, all part of the common human consciousness. And in particular we share with 'A', as I see it, the perception that the world is insane and corrupt. But I think most of us here are not overwhelmed by that perception, at least not most of the time. I should not speak for others, but don't we have a certain .... can we say resilience.

Hmm, what 'qualities' does 'A' need to 'cope' with the world? That is part of what I am asking on this thread. Of course Huguette has dealt with the issue comprehensively and sensitively above.

Dan McDermott wrote:
I think that "advice" is pretty useless unless it's about practical things.

Why so Dan? I did use the word "advice" rather reluctantly in my first post, I must admit, but what would you call "practical things"? And what would be non-practical?

Dan McDermott wrote:
I would say that probably 'listening' with love is the only thing we can do for each other. The exposure to love may work in ways that we can't imagine.

Yes.

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Tue, 08 Oct 2019 #6
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
For dear "A", perhaps something like this:

Thank you for this sensitive and penetrating response, Huguette. I will pass it on to "A".

Would you mind if she writes back to you, through me?

Huguette . wrote:
. This is the life into which we are born and it is up to each one of us to find out what is the right action in all our relationships as we move through life. It is up to each one of us to understand what our actions are based on, what is right action and what is false.

Yes, this very much resonates with me also, Huguette, thanks.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Tue, 08 Oct 2019.

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Wed, 09 Oct 2019 #7
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1433 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I did use the word "advice" rather reluctantly in my first post, I must admit, but what would you call "practical things"? And what would be non-practical?

Take care of the body. Don't do things that you wouldn't want someone to do to you. If you have a child, don't drop it on its head, etc...The non-practical is more like the advice given in Sunday morning sermons: believe this or believe that...I'd say that for someone to find themselves interested in the words of K., it may take a certain 'initiation'. I don't know how that works and whether it's true or not...

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Wed, 09 Oct 2019 #8
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1433 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Hmm, what 'qualities' does 'A' need to 'cope' with the world?

Well Clive, let's go directly to K.'s secret: "I don't mind what happens". That's for all of us, isn't it, not just 'A'?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 09 Oct 2019.

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Wed, 09 Oct 2019 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 14 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I would say that probably 'listening' with love is the only thing we can do for each other. The exposure to love may work in ways that we can't imagine. Also involvement in the wonders and the beauty of nature seems to me so important.

To me, this is a wonderful response. And I feel that Clive Elwell is listening to A with caring.

Clive Elwell wrote:
...what is happening in the world, it's collapsing. What can one possibly tell children? Is there any profession, any work they can do that is not corrupt?

It is quite easy to feel that the world is corrupt and problematic. It is hard to turn the microscope 180 degrees and look at myself. Do I harm others? Do I harm myself? What are my thoughts and feelings? Can I watch them? I am the world, in that I share so much with all of humanity. With awareness, there can be transformation. Awareness begins with watching myself, yes?

A wrote:
Should I change myself so much for a system? What if I can't get that back you know? I don't want for it to be changing me for the worst and for so I not even realise.

You cannot get back. The past is gone. You are free and not bound by any imagined continuity.

But when I want to change myself, a curious division happens. There's what I want to be and what I am. Part of me wants change, sees that it is necessary. And part of me resists change, fights it. Is the division real? Am I the part that wants change AND the part that resists? Am I neither?

Don't I have to start with what actually is? Watching the desire for change and the resistance, seeing that they are just different pulls of thought. I must be quiet. I must take time to just watch it all, like watching a stream. If I am so caught up in it, how can I see what is? I must go to nature or sit down quietly. Somehow there must be direct seeing of what is. When what is is clearly seen, then true action happens out of that seeing, yes?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 09 Oct 2019.

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Wed, 09 Oct 2019 #10
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:

Don't I have to start with what actually is? Watching the desire for change and the resistance, seeing that they are just different pulls of thought. I must be quiet. I must take time to just watch it all, like watching a stream. If I am so caught up in it, how can I see what is? I must go to nature or sit down quietly. Somehow there must be direct seeing of what is. When what is is clearly seen, then true action happens out of that seeing, yes?

And similar comments. And also Dan wrote:

Dan McDermott wrote:
Well Clive, let's go directly to K.'s secret: "I don't mind what happens". That's for all of us, isn't it, not just 'A'?

Yes, I feel all these comments are true. But my question is, how can communicate such truths to the young, even when the occasion arises?

Probably - I should not speak for others though - it has taken us many years, perhaps decades, of 'inner work',self observation, to begin to see these truths. Can we reasonably expect a young person, who has gone through the usual upbringing, usual education, who has mentally inherited the great burden of human suffering, human conflict, chaos, to begin to understand these things? I am faced with the immediate challenge of ‘A’, but also, through that, enquiring into the wider problem of young people in general.

But maybe I should only concern myself only with the immediate challenge, with ‘A’, and not generalise? As I say, through ‘A’ I meet the whole issue of the young who have to live in a deteriorating world. Although clearly ‘A’ is more sensitive to this, in particular she sees the hypocrisy in adults, she begins to grasp the whole conditioning/conforming process.

I will go address myself to her messages

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #11
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1433 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
But my question is, how can communicate such truths to the young, even when the occasion arises?

Maybe you can't. How many have listened to K. and walked away without 'seeing' the fact that the 'thinker' is the thought. Then or now. Probably thousands (or all... except a few?) The 'truth' is communicated by 'living' the truth, is that so? Whether it is received is not up to you or anyone. If the 'perfume' is there, who smells it, has nothing to do with the flower. I'd say Listen to what is being said, asked, etc. and realize that everyone must come to the truth themselves...there can be no leader, no guide...all that has to be thrown aside. It is a very lonely pursuit.

I wonder if the idea of the perniciousness of belief can be communicated as well as its pernicious opposite, non-belief...? What is this need we have to be 'connected' with something or someone psychologically? Is it the security we derived from the breast and when once weaned, then we go searching for something similar in the outer world? The need to 'belong' is so ubiquitous, so familiar, so taken for granted that it's rare to have it questioned, isn't it? Almost blasphemous. No-one could have told me any of this when I was young and if they had, I doubt I would have listened to any of it.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 10 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #12
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2725 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: Visits to this relative of mine seemed to be the only respite for A, a place where she could relax, feel happy

It seems like she sorely needs a place of refuge....a place where she can be herself without pressure from school and mother. She wouldn't be having such unhappiness if she had a place like that. K once said something like a very sensitive person needs protection....a place of refuge. Not sure the exact quote. But when young, I was fortunate to have an, at least somewhat, understanding family....a place to relax and 'be myself' without the pressure of conforming to the workplace as well as the ridiculous pressure of social conformity young people often feel with friends. I would have been lost without some kind of place of refuge when young (in my 20's). Later on I learned to conform to the necessities of the workplace without feeling I was betraying my 'real self'. It took many years though before I could be comfortable around 'normal' middle class folks with middle class values. Going to read over your OP more carefully before replying further as I may have missed understanding the gist of her problem...the problem of a thoroughly corrupt society and the need to conform on some level. Re-reading, I see that she's 17 years old. Here in the US one can drop out of high school once one becomes 16. Perhaps a year or two of freedom from the conformity of a typical public school would help her to relax and 'find herself' a bit. But if her parents are not open to understanding her as she is, then perhaps that's not an option.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 10 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #13
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 14 posts in this forum Offline

When I was about A's age, I found Think On These Things and it had a very strong impact on me. A big takeaway was to do what you love. I soon changed my college major and have since always worked in the field that I love. Had I not changed, I might have earned more money and led a more conventional life. I am grateful that I have been able to survive well doing what I love.

Today, I encourage young people to do what they love. But I also add that what you love may change. When you are young, you may not value having a family and earning enough to support one. When you are older, this may be a primary value.

Do what you love, but realize what you love may change. And these days, just attaining a survival level of income is not so easy. Obviously, you must tend to basic needs like food and shelter first.

To give advice to young people is rather easy. But they are the ones who have to live their lives. They are living through a challenging and important time. They are making decisions about career, romantic relationship, escapism including intoxicants/substances, and discovering a philosophy of life.

To play the adviser is in some way to play the teacher, the guru. And we all know what K said about that. But despite his disparagement of the spiritual teacher, K also said that the best teacher points someone back to themself. (Which renders the teacher extraneous.) This is key. Self knowledge, the beginning of awareness, the beginning of meditation, is vital. It is up to each of us at any age to discover what is true and to live. We are ever in relationship. And ever on our own.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 10 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #14
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2725 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Today, I encourage young people to do what they love.

That's fine if you can pay the rent from that, idiot? When young, I loved art and music, but was not able to make a living at either. I had to find work in department stores, health food store, etc....very low paying jobs, but I did enjoy meeting new people every day ....interacting with the customers. But if I simply tried to follow the advice of 'do what you love' I would have been homeless. But just doing what was necessary to survive I found something I actually enjoyed. However the money was really crap and I could barely keep a roof over my head. Later I found another field of work that paid a bit better but there were definitely conformity issues and I had to eventually quit. I'm very skeptical of this 'do what you like' advice, whether given by K or whoever. Someone needs to fix the roads, pick up the trash, clean the public restrooms, fix sewer pipes, etc. ONe may not be doing one's most favorite thing in life, but with the right attitude one can enjoy basic survival tasks too....doing laundry, cleaning house, fixing the car, or roof, etc. Not everyone can find a job 'doing what they love'. Of course some people love car repair work, or fixing up houses...remodeling ...fixing computers, electronics, etc. But who really loves being a garbage collector or working in the sewer system?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 10 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #15
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2725 posts in this forum Offline

Oh...I forgot a job I had when quite young....loved it so much it wasn't even like work. Driving a large van for a summer camp and also for a private school....taking the kids back and forth from home to school and back. But if I had followed the do what you love advice I would never have tried that particular job....and found what I loved. At times it was pure joy overflowing.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 10 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #16
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 14 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
and found what I loved.

In other words, you had a number of professions and discovered love in doing them in various ways.

Like I said, what you love may change. You found that clinging to your initial loves, music and art, wasn't working, so you discovered other interesting, loving activities for work. Although you may not have earned a living doing music and art, I bet that you have continued to do them with fulfillment! Am I right?

To do includes everything you do. Some of that earns money, some not.

The interesting thing about love is that it doesn't involve preconception. By contrast, career planning can be the ultimate in preconception. Yes, we need long term training for certain professions. But love doesn't have to stick to a plan, it doesn't have to be consistent, it doesn't have to make sense to other people. It's just love. It finds it owns way.

It may be impractical and stupid to take career advice from K, who was taken care of by others his entire life. Had he not been, he might have ended up homeless. But a very different world begins when young people free themselves from traditions, from expectations, from the place that has been carved out for them by their parents. It is your life. You don't know what will happen. Life is discovery. A place to begin is what you love.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 10 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #17
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2725 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:

Life is discovery. A place to begin is what you love.

I think you missed my point. What we love doing may not be practical....or even possible to do. I’d say that’s probably the case for most of us. We may love basketball but after countless hours of practice we get cut from the team. So we can’t begin there. We know what gave us fulfillment in the past. Then we want to do more of THAT. But life doesn’t often work out that way....so we find that we have to do something to pay the rent. I had no idea I’d love sales but I was practically penniless so took whatever job I could find that I thought would be tolerable. I never dreamed working in a store would be something I’d love. Well I loved it at times anyway.....much of the time it was a terrible bore. So perhaps we have to just jump in the water (the unknown) and try to swim. And we learn from that. Whether that’s something Clive’s young friend can do or not, I can’t say obviously. She may be too young to work or may be stuck in a very difficult situation at home.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 10 Oct 2019.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #18
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 14 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
What we love doing may not be practical....or even possible to do.

I don't think we are really in disagreement. For you, "doing what you love" seems to imply excluding the practical. For me, it must include the practical. So we agree that food, shelter, clothing are necessary. We also agree that doing what you love is not just saying, "I love poetry. I'll only do that." You can love poetry, and have a life that includes it, but it will also include other practicalities, too.

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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 #19
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1433 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
For you, "doing what you love" seems to imply excluding the practical. For me, it must include the practical. So we agree that food, shelter, clothing are necessary. We also agree that doing what you love is not just saying, "I love poetry. I'll only do that." You can love poetry, and have a life that includes it, but it will also include other practicalities, too.

Is there really any control over any of this? Or does it just happen and thought with its 'thinker', 'experiencer', imagines that there is (creates) a controller, a judger, a 'me' (with all its past) navigating all this?...Is that true or an illusion?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 11 Oct 2019.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #20
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2725 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
For you, "doing what you love" seems to imply excluding the practical. For me, it must include the practical.

Why so? If I love painting and can't sell any paintings I have to find some other way to pay the rent....something more practical....something I may not love. I loved playing the guitar, but I had to forgo it for the most part to find work that paid my bills....and had little time or even desire for music for quite a while. OK I don't want to belabor this since it's probably not germane to the questions in the OP. HOpefully Clive's young friend will find time and a quiet space (if needed) to do something she loves. Or perhaps something not so quiet like doing child care.

Let it Be

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #21
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Is there really any control over any of this? Or does it just happen and thought with its 'thinker', 'experiencer', imagines that there is (creates) a controller, a judger, a 'me' (with all its past) navigating all this?...Is that true or an illusion?

Is there NEVER a place for a controller? Are there areas of our lives that need a certain amount of 'control'? And does control ALWAYS imply the existence of a controller? I am not asserting, I don't know the answer to these questions. I believe K said control never played a part in his life.

The alternative to control seems to be intelligence. And awareness. But perhaps also necessity. It may be when the self, the ego, developed in the human brain, there was a certain necessity for it - can we say as an organiser of the brain's activities. And looking after the physical security of the brain.

Dan McDermott wrote:
Or does it just happen and thought with its 'thinker', 'experiencer', imagines that there is (creates) a controller, a judger, a 'me

Yes, this organiser is still created by thought.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #22
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It is quite easy to feel that the world is corrupt and problematic. It is hard to turn the microscope 180 degrees and look at myself. Do I harm others? Do I harm myself? What are my thoughts and feelings? Can I watch them? I am the world, in that I share so much with all of humanity. With awareness, there can be transformation. Awareness begins with watching myself, yes?

I'd be happy to investigate this further, Id (calling you 'Id', rather than 'Idiot ?'), if you would care to start a new thread.

I don't feel this "I am the world" is so black and white. Yes, in essence it is so, and this is felt deeply. Yet when one does look at what is going on in the world, the vast conflict between ideologies, the power-grabbing, the brain washing,the ruthlessness, there seems some justification in saying "I'm not like that"

But only some.

What does it mean to you, Id, to say "I am the world"?

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #23
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Here in the US one can drop out of high school once one becomes 16. Perhaps a year or two of freedom from the conformity of a typical public school would help her to relax and 'find herself' a bit. But if her parents are not open to understanding her as she is, then perhaps that's not an option.

In the UK, where she is, people have to stay in education until they are 18, unless they have a full time job or an Apprenticeship.'A' has in fact asked about apprenticeships as a way out of school. I am told Sunday nights, and many nights, finds her weeping about the prospect of going to school the next day.

But if her parents are not open to understanding her as she is, then perhaps that's not an option.

The relationship between her mother and herself is very stormy indeed. Sometimes they are not even on speaking terms. From what I gather, her father is in some sort of denial that there is a problem.

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Fri, 11 Oct 2019 #24
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

The following is from the start of a booklet called "Have Strong Feelings, don't be frightened of them". It is from a talk given by K to students at the Rajghat school in 1964. I cannot find the text online, I have typed it out (with some editing), and I may do some more. I just sent the excerpt to "A".:

Have Strong Feelings, don't be frightened of them – part 1

Most of us have very little feeling about anything. You know what it is to feel,to care, to look at the moon for a long time? To feel the movement of the trees, to see a bird, how it flies, how delicate its wings are and yet how extraordinarily strong they must be to support that bird through a storm.

To watch the river, to watch all that, demands a great deal of feeling. Do you know what it is to feel? To feel the movement of a tree, to hear the breeze among the leaves and to feel for those poor women from the village going to town day after day, day after day, in their dirty clothes, unwashed, never having a hot bath, never having clean clothes, never having a full meal, never stopping working, working, working. To feel for all this makes one very sensitive and if you don't feel when you are young, when you are alive, if you don't see everything, if you don't notice the people about you, the poor people, the rich people, your teachers, your friends; if you don't notice all these things from now on, then when you grow up you will notice nothing. You won't feel anything. All your emotions will be destroyed. You will have no strong feelings about anything - about your children, about your brother, about your family, what happens to the people around you. You won't notice the birds, the river, the trees, the pollution. You will see nothing.

To be continued

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Sat, 12 Oct 2019 #25
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2725 posts in this forum Offline

Clive:
In the UK, where she is, people have to stay in education until they are 18, unless they have a full time job or an Apprenticeship

That’s absurd! What do they do if they refuse to go, put them in prison? What a violent world! Perhaps there’s something going on at school that she is ashamed or embarrassed to tell you Clive. What about a counselor or social worker, though they are likely to take the side of the school and parents. This is a situation where I think a good psychotherapist might help....someone who wouldn’t take ANY side, or say right or wrong, but simply listen.

Let it Be

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Sat, 12 Oct 2019 #26
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
That’s absurd!

There is much about the world that is absurd, Tom.

I believe she is seeing a psychiatrist, monthly I think. And is on "medication", I'm afraid. After the perhaps-suicide incident there was some movement towards counseling, but it seemed very desultory.

Tom Paine wrote:
Perhaps there’s something going on at school that she is ashamed or embarrassed to tell you Clive.

She is recently attending a new school, one of her choice, to do "A"-level exams. She does not seem to have made any friends there. It is true that there is much that she does not tell me, and I only learn about from my relative.

Yes, I would say she is surrounded by people who do not listen to her. Only tell her what she should be. is this 'advising her'?

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Sat, 12 Oct 2019 #27
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

Have Strong Feelings, don't be frightened of them – part 2

I wonder why the grown-up people, as well as the children, don't feel for anything, don't care. Why? You know what I am asking? Are you following what I'm talking about? Why don't you feel for anything, very strongly? Not about nationalism, not about ideas and flags but about little things, not big things.

And I wonder why there were people like this who don't care what happens to their children, what kind of human beings they will be when they grow up, what kind of thoughts they will have, what kind of feelings, affections, sorrows, miseries, what they will be when they are married and have children. because if you don't care now, while you are young, now in school, when you are playing, laughing, amusing yourself, if you don't care, if you don't have tremendous feelings, then when you grow up, naturally you won't have any feeling at all. Because, life will be much more difficult when you grow up. there will be the husband there will be the wife, there will be the children, there may be poverty, or a little house where you have to cook, wash, do everything yourself. And so it goes on and on.

To be continued

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Sun, 13 Oct 2019 #28
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

Have Strong Feelings, don't be frightened of them – part 3

So why is it, when life demands that you must have strong feelings - strong not cold, indifferent, uncaring - why is it that you have not got it?

Have you noticed the garden? I know you can't do anything about it: you're too young. But just notice it, how ill kept it is what few flowers there are, what few trees. Just notice it, because by noticing you will learn. And when you grow up, then you will be able to do something in life, not just go to the office, earn a livelihood, come back to your house, quarrel with your wife, have a few children, and all the rest of that business.

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Wed, 16 Oct 2019 #29
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5268 posts in this forum Offline

Have Strong Feelings, don't be frightened of them – part 4

(At this point Krishnamurti talks about the tremendous changes going on in the world, the technological developments, the population growth, the increasing competition and demands on people, the ever-increasing stress. This was in 1964).

“And outside there is a storm going on, at terrific speed of change. And as you grow up, you will be thrown into that storm, and you won't know what to do. so you will carve out, cut out, a little space for yourself, for your little family, and live there, rotting, quarrelling, bitter, unhappy, wanting more children, more money, more this and more that, and that's all.

So seeing all this extraordinary change going on in the world, one asks ones self - which you must have, the teachers and the grown-up people must have asked - how to prepare a student, a young boy or girl, to face all that, to understand it, to live with it, not just to succumb to it, not just to say “Well it's alright you can walk over me”. Not just to become a cog in this stupendous machine, but to understand it, to live with it, to fight it, to do something with it”.

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