Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

The gift that lies in the heart of all suffering


Displaying posts 31 - 42 of 42 in total
Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #31
Thumb_17fb3c103b15073d6425c2d272aac133l-w1xd-w1020_h770_q80 Who am..... I? United States 24 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I must have missed something but how did the bacterium get into the discussion? Sorrow is related to thought, no? Do bacteria think? Do they have a self image? Isn’t this a meaningless diversion from the topic?

If English is your first language and one isn't lazy then they can scroll a few comments up and read for themselves the progression of the thread and find out for themselves. You will also find out that the last few comments actually served to bring the topic on sorrow more into focus, than the abstractions and diversions prior to them. Good luck.

This post was last updated by Who am..... I? Fri, 28 Jun 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #32
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

Looking at this further, pain and suffering are qualia, like the redness of red.

A machine can identify the color red by its wavelength, but it doesn't see the color red. There is no color red until a sentient being emerges. So also pain and suffering, these don't exist until there exists an experiencer, someone, some being, or something (?) sentient.

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Fri, 28 Jun 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #33
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 657 posts in this forum Offline

An interesting question arises: how far down does sentience go? I think I've mentioned before that I am confident that my dog is sentient. And also the nearby squirrels and crows. Well, I'll include all the animals with backbones. And just when does it arise in an embryo? Animals are put down one hopes without suffering.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #34
Thumb_17fb3c103b15073d6425c2d272aac133l-w1xd-w1020_h770_q80 Who am..... I? United States 24 posts in this forum Offline

As was said earlier, the bacteria had just enough sentience, just enough mobility and just enough memory to perceive pleasure and pain and go through the process of expansion and contraction to serve nature’s blueprint and pave the way for other life forms to come about in the course of evolution. It seems like this awareness of pain and pleasure is inbuilt with sentience/life from the very first expressions of it, such as in the case of the bacteria example used earlier. Therefore pain and sorrow are the bedrock of life as we know it. An "experiencer" is a very new thing to nature in the scale of evolution and the used example perfectly illustrates that the mere presence of sentience in whatever life form is enough for the perception of pain and sorrow and to facilitate nature's design.

As in previous comments. it is again urged to verify this information with a competent biologist. If one is not able to fathom the implications and consequences of what is being highlighted then perhaps it is best to let it go and not worry too much about it.

This post was last updated by Who am..... I? Fri, 28 Jun 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #35
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2829 posts in this forum Offline

Well the cockroach feels pain, but do they suffer or feel sorrow if their spouse cheats on them or if another roach calls them fat or ugly? I assumed we were concerned with psychological suffering, not physical pain. Psychological suffering is a result of thought. It's distinct from purely physical pain that the insect or goldfish feels.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 28 Jun 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #36
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5351 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
. Otherwise the 'staying with' is just another cunning way to 'avoid' i.e., we 'stay with' in order to 'get rid of'.

Yes, I find this an important point. The same for much of our action.

Thought is endlessly cunning, isn’t it? Perhaps it can only maintain the self through self deception. And insensitivity to its own contradictions. An example I notice a lot is in its attempt to ‘become something’, become other than it is. At times, as the movement becomes untenable, it recognises that it has to give up all becoming – but it is actually turning that very “giving up” into an attempt to give up, ie, another form of becoming.

Another example, in thinking that it is putting aside desire, it is merely continuing desire.


I woke up in the night with this strong realisation: “The self is not some problem to be solved, for me to solve – the self is what I am” And yet the self is so cunning that it simultaneously pretends, it is pretending, it is deceiving itself, that it is the entity that will do the solving.


I woke up a second time, and it seemed this division in the mind had ceased. Thought was still there, but there was no me separate from that thought. Whatever thought did, it was still me. There was no ‘me and my thoughts’. There was no great bliss or anything like that, but the mind was free of duality, of contradiction. This is an entirely different state of being from the usual.


Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #37
Thumb_17fb3c103b15073d6425c2d272aac133l-w1xd-w1020_h770_q80 Who am..... I? United States 24 posts in this forum Offline

My Comments between posts #12 through #34 have already addressed the above point being made at #35, especially my comment #25 addressees it.

This post was last updated by Who am..... I? Fri, 28 Jun 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 29 Jun 2019 #38
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2829 posts in this forum Offline

“Sorrow is self-pity”, J.K. “Attachment leads to suffering”, paraphrasing the Buddha. Let’s please distinguish physical pain from sorrow and the suffering caused by fear, anger, hate, greed, attachment, craving, and other psychological movements of thought/emotion.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 29 Jun 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #39
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5351 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Let’s please distinguish physical pain from sorrow and the suffering caused by fear, anger, hate, greed, attachment, craving, and other psychological movements of thought/emotion.

I would use the word “conditioning” in its broadest sense, to include biological conditioning. Others may not agree. I checked the etymological meaning of the word, and found it interesting but rather obtuse. Perhaps even the laws of Physics may be regarded as a sort of conditioning of matter, although this may seem far-fetched. Basically we mean by conditioning, do we not?, to respond with a pre-set program. Automatically. And it seems that on one level at least nature does this?

I think Tom is right to distinguish between physical pain/discomfort/insecurity, and all the suffering that arises in the psyche. After all, isn’t the latter, in essence, imaginary?

But isn’t the real question that arises: do we have to be slaves to pain, and its companion, pleasure? Do our lives have to be determined by these things? Is it not possible to see them for what they are?

I tentatively answer that by careful observation of these movements, their grip on us can lessen. Is it a matter of instead of being caught up in the little picture, we become concerned with the bigger picture?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #40
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2829 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I think Tom is right to distinguish between physical pain/discomfort/insecurity, and all the suffering that arises in the psyche. After all, isn’t the latter, in essence, imaginary?

The latter is caused by thought and image....imagination, yes. The later doesn’t exist in the lower animals. They don’t suffer from the inner conflict caused by images of good and bad, should and shouldn’t....ideals, beliefs, etc. which are the cause of outer as well as inner misery.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #41
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2829 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Basically we mean by conditioning, do we not?, to respond with a pre-set program. Automatically. And it seems that on one level at least nature does this?

I once saw conditioning defined as being influenced, affected, and accustomed. Yes, nature is physically conditioned as well as mentally...in the mammals, at least. The porcupine or skunk responds to a threat to its physical safety in set ways. But I think we can say that when there’s no physical threat perceived, that the porcupine doesn’t have worry or anxiety, guilt, fear, pride, or other psychological problems like man does. Those are all the product of thought. When the threat is absent there’s no fear in the porcupine or skunk. Not sure about all this, so please feel free to question or challenge.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sun, 28 Jul 2019 #42
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5351 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
Whatever psychological reaction, which is the appearance of a self-image, might occur in any of us, together with it there appears an opportunity to understand oneself totally through the observation of oneself without judgement/thought.

That is the Gift that lies in the heart of all mental disturbance, of all suffering.

I am going back to the beginning of this thread of Mina's, as I do not think that I ever understood her words. This issue was re-awakened in me recently when I came across two quote from K: Here is one:

Ommen Camp 1938 talk 2:

When you are aware integrally, with your whole being, of this confusion and suffering, without any hope of escape, then there will arise spontaneously that which is real. But you must love, be enthused by that very confusion and suffering. You must love with your own heart, not with another's.

If you begin to experiment with yourself, you will see a curious transformation taking place. In the moment of highest confusion there is clarity; in the moment of greatest fear there is love. You must come to it spontaneously, without the exertion of will.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 31 - 42 of 42 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)