Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Displaying posts 91 - 109 of 109 in total
Thu, 06 Dec 2018 #91
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4639 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
there would be no wars if we were wholly satisfied with our daily needs. But we are not."

And we would not be destroying ourselves and the environment.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #92
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 999 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
K.:there would be no wars if we were wholly satisfied with our daily needs. But we are not."

So why are we not 'satisfied' with our daily needs? (Because we're not cattle, or pigs or birds?) Why are humans not satisfied with just our daily needs?

It is mind boggling to contemplate a world where humans could actually live together peacefully, without war and with a level of equality. What one person is 'satisfied' with now can be quite different than what would satisfy another. And the ones who want 'more' will vanquish those who try to keep it from them...So it seems to me that our 'desires' can not be 'regulated' by any outside entity like a form of government or moral code but only by a fundamental change in us. Which means the ending of 'greed' and desire which is the result of seeing ourselves as 'individuals'. Could such a radical change come about before we destroy ourselves and many forms around us? Obviously it can't unless that change can take place in me. That would be the first step it seems to me.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 08 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #93
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4639 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:

So why are we not 'satisfied' with our daily needs? (Because we're not cattle, or pigs or birds?) Why are humans not satisfied with just our daily needs?

One answer is that we are conditioned not to be. The whole thrust of our upbringing, education, is to compete, to be ambitious, to strive for more. But this is not a complete answer. Why are our teachers, parents, those who conditioned us, themselves conditioned into ambition?

Another answer is that it is natural to improve one’s conditions materially – at least it was for our cave-men ancestors. And like all the natural movements, it became internalised into the psyche. As thought developed (I presume with the development of the cortex) the self developed, through a process of identification. It identified with the process of material development, with all the terrible consequences of that.

It is mind boggling to contemplate a world where humans could actually live together peacefully, without war and with a level of equality.

Yes. Actually I find it deeply moving. Whenever I have read Aldous Huxley’s book “Island” I can be reduced to tears, just to contemplate that human beings could live together sanely, intellegently, with compassion for each other, and all focused on the need for self-understanding and transformation.

What one person is 'satisfied' with now can be quite different than what would satisfy another.

But isn’t that satisfaction always an image? Real satisfaction is always short-lived, is it not? The desire for more quickly reasserts itself. Look at those who gain a billion dollars, and then immediately set their sights on a second billion.

And the ones who want 'more' will vanquish those who try to keep it from them...So it seems to me that our 'desires' can not be 'regulated' by any outside entity like a form of government or moral code but only by a fundamental change in us. Which means the ending of 'greed' and desire which is the result of seeing ourselves as 'individuals'. Could such a radical change come about before we destroy ourselves and many forms around us?

Well, this is the question, isn’t it? The crucial question for mankind, although very few are considering it. If I have to answer yes or no, I would say, after much study of the world, NO.

All the evidence – the scientific evidence, not the propaganda, is pointing to terrible environmental collapse, the destruction of most varieties of life on the planet, and the breakdown of society, the structures that have kept the majority of us at least supplied with the basic necessities of life. This is happening now, it not some prediction for the future. I don’t think I have to produce figures. And what is being revealed is mankind's inability to act, to get together to solve the existential threats. He doesn't seem to even care very much.

In Krishnamurti’s first talk at Madras in 1973 he talks of the necessity for mankind’s survival, but how much more dire is the situation now than then?

If anyone can show me how this perception is wrong, I’d be very very happy to hear it.

Obviously it can't unless that change can take place in us.

Just to clarify, who are you referring to as “us”, Dan?

That would be the first step it seems to me.

Perhaps strangely, despite my pessimism – I would not call it pessimism, but realism – I still accept the responsibility of a fundamental change in myself. What else is there? And I certainly cannot rely on anyone else. Of course such acceptance does not show one ‘how’ to change. it’s not a matter of applying greater effort. There is no method. I suppose this is is similar to K’s “truth is a pathless land”.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #94
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 999 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Just to clarify, who are you referring to as “us”, Dan?

Me, you and anyone else interested in what we speak about here.

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Sat, 08 Dec 2018 #95
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2325 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:

K.:there would be no wars if we were wholly satisfied with our daily needs. But we are not."
So why are we not 'satisfied' with our daily needs? (Because we're not cattle, or pigs or birds?) Why are humans not satisfied with just our daily needs?

Tom:
Pleasure? Is the whole thrust of the self the pursuit of pleasure and fulfillment....and more, more, more, because we are never satisfied? Also the pursuit of psychological security? All this is based upon thought/memory, of course.

Let it Be

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Sat, 08 Dec 2018 #96
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 999 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Pleasure? Is the whole thrust of the self the pursuit of pleasure and fulfillment....and more, more, more, because we are never satisfied? Also the pursuit of psychological security? All this is based upon thought/memory, of course.

Is it like this: the driving force to live , to continue, has passed from every cell in the physical body into the psychological? 'I' want to continue because the alternative is oblivion? 'I' see death all around me in nature but hear no objections from there...only from me, a human saying in effect 'I' should not end, 'I' am somehow special and above all that...?

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2 days ago #97
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4639 posts in this forum Online

I was with the person I mentioned in #75 above, yesterday. He really just wants to discuss domestic issues, but rather deliberately, as an experiment really, I tried to bring up the issue of climate change. In the past he has been somewhat of a denier. I repeated something I had read earlier in the day:

The last time that atmospheric carbon dioxide levels were this high the sea level was about five to 40 meters (16 to 131 feet) higher than normal. Average temperatures were roughly 3 to 4 degrees Celsius (5.4 to 7.2 degrees Fahrenheit) warmer than today – except that North and South poles were even warmer still – as much as 10 degrees Celsius (18 degrees Fahrenheit) hotter than today. This was 3 – 5 million years ago.

The figures are from the NASA website.

It is frightening to see human being avoid the facts, just turn away from them, but that is what happened with him. And if the people I meet are a representative sample, that is what the vast majority of people are doing, in various ways. Just carrying on, in the belief that they will be able to keep carrying on. And their children can carry on in the same way. I don’t know what it will take, what sort of catastrophe, to shake this assumption.

Sometimes the only word that seems to describe the human species is insane.

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2 days ago #98
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4639 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
Pleasure? Is the whole thrust of the self the pursuit of pleasure and fulfillment....and more, more, more, because we are never satisfied? Also the pursuit of psychological security? All this is based upon thought/memory, of course.

Certainly the pursuit of pleasure and security are integral to the self. And they are not entirely separate, of course. But which is cause and which is effect?

There is the pursuit of physical security, which all life does, although ultimately it fails, with death. (Which make my post above even more puzzling). But as you say, psychological security is based on idea, and that is entirely different. It is the pursuit of phantoms.

I think the desire for security is a major issue for mankind, and for each individual. It is absolutely necessary, and yet it seems unobtainable. We act in entirely the opposite direction. How can it be found? Not in the things of thought, I am sure - although thought has a role to play, as in the development of medicine and surgery. K says it is found in the operation of intelligence, but how is this intelligence to be come upon? Thought, psychologically, is the essence of unintelligence, isn't it? As was said above, it is insane.

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2 days ago #99
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4639 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
Is it like this: the driving force to live , to continue, has passed from every cell in the physical body into the psychological?

That is a penetrating way of putting it, Dan.

Dan McDermott wrote:
'I' want to continue because the alternative is oblivion?

Yes, that is certainly a movement. But that seems to imply that there is no 'way out', if the self will always act so as to continue itself.

Would you say that actually the self is always ending, always dying? Because it is composed of thought, and each thought has its existence, its duration, and then can but end? But often this is not seen. Is it in the seeing of this fact that the 'way out' lies?

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2 days ago #100
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 999 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Would you say that actually the self is always ending, always dying? Because it is composed of thought, and each thought has its existence, its duration, and then can but end? But often this is not seen. Is it in the seeing of this fact that the 'way out' lies?

This is the mystery of 'identification'. What you say about each thought that it has a birth and a death is true,..but something (the 'I'?) sees not birth/death but an illusory continuity of itself. Is that the 'trick' of the thinker? That he feels himself to be the author, responsible for each and every thought, when in actuality, they simply arise and disappear on their own?

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2 days ago #101
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2325 posts in this forum Offline

Clive: But as you say, psychological security is based on idea, and that is entirely different. It is the pursuit of phantoms.

And the pursuit of an idea or ideal leads to all our inner and worldly conflicts, which just exacerbates our insecurity. The idea that I very badly want to be a great tennis star is in opposition to the fact that I’m not really that talented at the sport. Or the fact that I might be better off spending my time on my studies....or with my family. Or the fact that I’m tired today and really don’t want to practice. Same would go for trying to be a great artist, writer, musician, and so on. Trying to be a great artist is pursuing an idea (”phantom “). Painting for the shear joy of it is not.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine 1 day ago.

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1 day ago #102
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2325 posts in this forum Offline

Dan: but something (the 'I'?) sees not birth/death but an illusory continuity of itself. Is that the 'trick' of the thinker?

T: Yes, he doesn’t realize he is just a thought....he thinks ‘he’ is directing his thoughts and actions. This trick of thought is very pervasive!

Been having trouble with quote function on my iPad. The website doesn’t work that well with iOS 11 apparently.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine 23 hours ago.

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21 hours ago #103
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4639 posts in this forum Online

Dan McDermott wrote:
Is that the 'trick' of the thinker? That he feels himself to be the author, responsible for each and every thought, when in actuality, they simply arise and disappear on their own?

I think so. But this perception/idea does not stand up to the light of awareness, does it?

Watching some documentary recently, it suddenly came to me that the general conception of the self, the ego, is quite different from how I have come to see it, and probably most people who have been exposed to K. It certainly is not seen as something created by thought. To them it actually exists, and it can be strong or weak, up or down. Problems are generally seen as originating from a 'weak' ego (we could go into what that means) and the solution - including solutions prescribed by psychoanalysts, counselors, and the like, is to somehow strengthen, enlarge the ego. It is really a matter of so called self esteem. So psychological problems are seen as a matter of replacing low self esteem with higher self esteem.

Do people agree with that analysis? So called 'positive thinking', as opposed to 'negative thinking' comes into it.

Yet fundamentally, is not all that stuff a movement in illusion?

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21 hours ago #104
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4639 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
And the pursuit of an idea or ideal leads to all our inner and worldly conflicts, which just exacerbates our insecurity.

How would you explain to a person, say a politician, a social activist, that their pursuit of security, order, only brings about more disorder, less security, Tom?

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21 hours ago #105
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4639 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:
Yes, he doesn’t realize he is just a thought..

This seems to be the essence of the human problem.

So how does thought realise its limitations, its true nature? Really realise it, not just as an idea?

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18 hours ago #106
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2325 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
How would you explain to a person, say a politician, a social activist, that their pursuit of security, order, only brings about more disorder, less security, Tom?

I think it's pretty obvious how identification with a political party leads to disorder....the liberal vs the conservative, right wing vs left, etc. Same goes for nationalism or my religion vs. your religion. The social activist may be a different story. He may be working to improve working conditions in the factory or to get affordable housing for the poor, or to protect the air or water from pollution, etc, etc. That’s not necessarily the pursuit of psychological security.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine 14 hours ago.

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14 hours ago #107
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2325 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Yes, he doesn’t realize he is just a thought..
This seems to be the essence of the human problem.

Can you elaborate on how this is so?

Let it Be

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11 hours ago #108
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4639 posts in this forum Online

Tom Paine wrote:

Clive:Yes, he doesn’t realize he is just a thought.. This seems to be the essence of the human problem.

Can you elaborate on how this is so?

elaborate on not realising one is just a thought, or on how this is the essence of the human problem?

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4 hours ago #109
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2325 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
elaborate on not realising one is just a thought, or on how this is the essence of the human problem?

On the latter part. Is that what keeps the fragments (me vs. not me) battling with one another? This is the crucial issue, I would agree....the fragmentation in consciousness and therefore division and conflict/violence in the world/society.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine 2 hours ago.

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