Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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An open letter to you all (answering a Mina's PM) ...


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Sun, 29 Oct 2017 #1
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

I've seen just today that Mina sent me a PM few days ago asking me with great friendship what was keeping me away from participating in the forum ... And i must say that i started writing her a PM, but after some minutes writing i thought to my self to share my answer not only with her, but also publicly in the forum with you all ... So here it is, for you to share also, if you want, your thoughts/feelings/perceptions openly about my words, no only with me but also with many others here and all those who decided to remain in the back just listening ...

Only allow me to say one thing about that sharing ... I decided to do that NOT TO TALK neither about Catalonia, nor Spain, nor whatever related to this conflict, i just decided to do so because this forum is a place where we talk about the conflicts in human beings which has only one color, not multiple colors ... So, i hope you to respect my decision.


Hi Mina!

Sorry for the delay in answering you, but my absence in the forum (and so in watching my PMs there too) has nothing to do with the forum ... I live in Catalonia and we are living a difficult process here this days (as you maybe has heard in the media) ...

So i spend my time participating in other forums (i.e.: mainly whatsapp and in my daily living with people i met in my daily rounds with letters and parcels), and i can tell you it is quite intense (more or less the same intensity we share in the forum ;-) as the same is here than there ...

There are many things one can observe, things one share due to those observations with others, but there's no listening, or better said, there's a listening but it's a biassed listening, in the way that people wants you to be on one side or the other ... Most of the human beings do not accept someone walking free alone without a fix view, pointing contradictions in either sides, not to dismiss one or the other, but to go deep into the living reality we all are living.

One can observe how people believe anything their leaders (of whatever kind) tell them without any questioning, and you and i know that without questioning none can see neither the contradictions in the leaders they follow, much less in oneself ... and without seen that, conflict is invited to be there all the time.

But i must say also that despite that i have had very deep and interesting conversations with some friends of mine, which of course doesn't mean anything because although they can observe the contradictions (their own, and others) during the conversation, after that the mind usually goes back to the cherished old pattern quite easy ... which is made obvious when i receive the next whatsapp they send me after some minutes from the conversation we have had.

So, everybody's talking always about the truth as one of those leaders is doing right now before thousands of people that need to believe in that truth without any questioning ... because if they question it, even just a little, they would realize how the words "love", "democracy", "respect", and so on are used in vain, just as mere convenience and interest of those who put them in their dirty mouths.

So, let me end this letter with the words of a Pope that show all that:

"Man can in no wise be counted among the Children of God unless they take Christ Jesus as their Brother and, at the same time, the Church as their Mother".


Pope Leo XIII

How many Christians do you think questioned "Who are you to talk in the name of God", "Who are you to tell who's children of this or that father?", "Who are you to condemn this or that child to a fatherless life because not following your BIASSED HUMAN premises?" ...

We are lost in a lost world as The Moody Blues sung in early 70's.
Now, would you be so kind to dry my tears? ... Because i'm crying.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Sun, 29 Oct 2017.

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Sun, 29 Oct 2017 #2
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3818 posts in this forum Offline

That you for writing Juan. Indeed there is much to be seen and understood in the Catalonia so called “independence” crisis (What a limited and misleading use of the word). But there is in all aspects of the world of course. It seems that the whole is contained in every part – just as all relationship is contained in each relationship. And one sees all that goes in “the world out there” has its counterpart in the inner world that manifests in each of us (Dan said something similar recently). Perhaps when the inner and the outer are seen together, then there is a completeness about learning.

Certainly I have no problem with people taking up particular issues of the world to discuss, as nothing is really separate from anything else.

Juan E wrote:
There are many things one can observe, things one share due to those observations with others, but there's no listening, or better said, there's a listening but it's a biassed listening, in the way that people wants you to be on one side or the other ... Most of the human beings do not accept someone walking free alone without a fix view, pointing contradictions in either sides, not to dismiss one or the other, but to go deep into the living reality we all are living

Yes, Juan, been feeling similar things as a result of the “K meetings” I have been organising. So little questioning, and one wonders why, as one sees the tremendous energy in question, its power for change. I am lead to the conclusion that people find some sort of security in holding on to opinions, conclusions, convictions, beliefs ….... But it seems a very dubious sort of security, to say the least.

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Mon, 30 Oct 2017 #3
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
I am lead to the conclusion that people find some sort of security in holding on to opinions, conclusions, convictions, beliefs ….... But it seems a very dubious sort of security, to say the least.

I was looking something for your request in the thread you opened few minutes ago before going to bed, and in one of the videos i was looking for i've found this dialogue in the comments that says it all (video is called "How do we gather the energy needed to change?"):


  • Andrew Ortiz: Since I've awakened I find myself on a unexplainable path which my conscious awareness takes me beyond the norm where I'm able to "be" without distraction. Unfortunately this only lasts 2 or 3 days simply because of the surroundings. Whether it be my family, friends, people whom I have contact with because of there un awareness and incapability to understand my motive and there for bring there negative energy into our relationship leading me to fall back on my old ways. My whereabouts of myself?


  • Friendly yours: it takes PRACTICE to maintain a state where distraction cannot be anymore, so keep practicing?


  • James Roycroft: See that there is only this "awakeness" as such and there is no "one" central entity to awaken. Then there is just awakeness, tremendous and attentive.?


  • Julian Hartley: Try meditation!?


  • James Roycroft: +Julian Hartley if there is any techniques, any mechanical process where there is a goal or an effort to do something it's not true meditation, one can't know that one is meditating, because that creates conflict and the illusion that there is a mediator who is doing the meditation. And that prevents the emptiness that is pure energy. That prevents truth from coming into being. One must see that the observer is the observed as krishnamurti put it. That the thinker is the thought. There is no separation. There can only be the meditation itself, and this is constant, it is not separate from daily life, from the moment. When there is actual meditation, then the limitless, the ground is and the distortion dissipates. If it is conditioned by some motive, effort or technique than it is not the limitless.?


  • Nazim Kilic: +Andrew Ortiz I understand you very well. I know of a very special person, of a calibre like Mr. Krishnamurti, who has developed working techniques exactly for this purpose. They work like a charm. If you're interested, write me.?


  • Thomas Pieters: not the other does that, but youre motive gives away youre couse whom does this. Love..or the Truth as what you speak of does never wonder off. There is nothing 'higher' than that, AS IT IS ALL THAT. :-)?



As i said, i'm going to bed now, i'll continue searching something for your request tomorrow, and also to follow any comments in this thread (and others) ... Good night (or good morning) to you all.

Ah yes! I forget to mention that in the middle of sterile dialogue in tweeter between some people about the conflicts in catalonia, someone posted today a quote from J. Krishnamurti (an excerpt from 'The Art of Listening, Talks in Omen, Holland (12 talks), talk #12 - 13 August 1933', talks that curiously are contained in the spanish version of Collected Works, vol.01 but not in the english version)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Mon, 30 Oct 2017.

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Mon, 30 Oct 2017 #4
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 162 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Juan!

Thank you for replying. I sent you that private message quite some time ago, cannot remember now. Have not been participating here for some time now either because of feeling little resonance in others, culminating in some people's interpretations of my trying to be some authority. It initiated a profound feeling of sorrow really, in being so crucially and seriously misunderstood, not because of personal desires 'to be undersood' as some separate entity, (! There is no understanding if there is any experience of separation!) but the sorrow of not sharing in relationship fully, beyond images coming in the way as veils between us. That is what is the root and nature of all sorrow fundamentally...as is seen here.

It does not matter where you or anyone is living and acting, including this forum or not, but what matters absolutely is the quality, the how, we live and interact with others, which of course is directly dependent on the degree (or perhaps beyond all degrees) of our understanding of ourselves/the world.

So, just good to hear all is well with you, that you are alive and 'active', in fundamental ways, that is all I wanted to know!

Juan:There are many things one can observe, things one share due to those observations with others, but there's no listening, or better said, there's a listening but it's a biassed listening, in the way that people wants you to be on one side or the other ... Most of the human beings do not accept someone walking free alone without a fix view, pointing contradictions in either sides, not to dismiss one or the other, but to go deep into the living reality we all are living.

Mina: Even the 'people not accepting someone walking free alone without a fixed view', comes from this fixed view that you mention. The fixed view is the observer, the thinker, which also creates the observed. It is not possible for the mind in this dualistic state to exist without a fixed point keeping it all together, that is its very nature. Identification, choice, is inherent in this fixed point, so that is why thinker/thought can only take sides, through indetification. Even when it tries to 'go global', it is just 'widening' the range of identification within its own limits! The mind can never ever see or be the whole! That is the cause for all the misery, for all the misery!!!! It is what creates the world of division!!

JUan:One can observe how people believe anything their leaders (of whatever kind) tell them without any questioning, and you and i know that without questioning none can see neither the contradictions in the leaders they follow, much less in oneself ... and without seen that, conflict is invited to be there all the time.

Mina: Clear.

Juan:But i must say also that despite that i have had very deep and interesting conversations with some friends of mine, which of course doesn't mean anything because although they can observe the contradictions (their own, and others) during the conversation, after that the mind usually goes back to the cherished old pattern quite easy ... which is made obvious when i receive the next whatsapp they send me after some minutes from the conversation we have had.

Mina: It may be that the people that you describe have not been completely involved with discussing with you, meaning that the understanding has remained at the level of intellectual acknowledgements. It may have not felt that way for you if you have been 'completely there'. One lives these kinds of things with people often...

Juan:So, everybody's talking always about the truth as one of those leaders is doing right now before thousands of people that need to believe in that truth without any questioning ... because if they question it, even just a little, they would realize how the words "love", "democracy", "respect", and so on are used in vain, just as mere convenience and interest of those who put them in their dirty mouths.

Mina: WE have to go deeper than the conceptual reality which is the reality created by the divided mind. Otherwise we will never come to live anything directly, wholly, sanely, beautifully, gracefully. Even all questioning must come to an end, ultimately, as its purpose is really the burning away of the questioner/questions/mind. Only the love for what is true can do that, the mind can also use 'questioning' as a subtle way to continue itself.

Juan:"Man can in no wise be counted among the Children of God unless they take Christ Jesus as their Brother and, at the same time, the Church as their Mother".
Pope Leo XIII

How many Christians do you think questioned "Who are you to talk in the name of God", "Who are you to tell who's children of this or that father?", "Who are you to condemn this or that child to a fatherless life because not following your BIASSED HUMAN premises?" ...

Mina: For as long as we have not profoundly understood the nature of our mind as division, when there is a 'me' separate from 'you', there will the one who acts as an authority and the others who follow and believe him etc...And it is not enough, not even possible to just deny the aurhotity of the Pope or any outer authority because that is still partial!!! That would still separate the inner and outer and it is exactly in this separation that the destructive authority of the mind, on the mind again, can survive!!

So, we have to go within us to find, to fully see the very origin of all authority, of all madness, and it is seen to be in the authority of an observer, of this fixed point, that thought creates out of itself. It is both the leader and the follower! This is the reality in any human brain where thought has taken over. This is where we have to go, and not merely point to 'outer authorities'. It is the division between the inner and the outer which has to die for Peace to be in our hearts and on Earth.

Thank you for listening.

Mina

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Mon, 30 Oct 2017 #5
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Now, would you be so kind to dry my tears? ... Because i'm crying.

Dear Juan,

Thank you for your honest description of the situation at home,
which obviously is not in order.
Where power struggle is present, impotence also occurs.

Spain, as well as the Catalans, are based on a Christian culture
and apparently one have not understood the words:
"What you don't want one do to you, don't do that to them too."

I wish you all the strength to stay straight !!
My hart is crying with you. LOve.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 30 Oct 2017 #6
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 162 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
"What you don't want one do to you, don't do that to them too."

Mina: Yes, those words describe really of our being One in Reality beyond the division created by thought. So, whatever you do to 'anyone else', including yourself, you are really doing to all. This is what the mind cannot see of course. No matter how 'deeply' the mind would try to indulge in division, it will forever remain a false reality. There is really no escaping the fact of oneness.

There was a wise man who received a guest who wanted to donate money to him. She stayed with him for a while and then decided she wanted her money back. This wise man (Ramana Maharshi) gave her the money and insisted on giving even more money back. When he was asked why he had acted the way he did, he said: "When the woman gave the money, she gave it to herself, and when she it took it away, she took it away from herself."

Was just reminded by these words after reading what also Jesus, and all wise men and women on earth, have been teaching.

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Fri, 03 Nov 2017 #7
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 399 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
It initiated a profound feeling of sorrow really, in being so crucially and seriously misunderstood, not because of personal desires 'to be undersood' as some separate entity, but the sorrow of not sharing in relationship fully, beyond images coming in the way as veils between us.

I understand quite well this feeling as it has been with me since i was 5yo until now that i'm 58yo

Juan E wrote:
what matters absolutely is the quality, the how, we live and interact with others, which of course is directly dependent on the degree (or perhaps beyond all degrees) of our understanding of ourselves/the world.

Agree with what you say, but if you let me i will add something more to your words ... To me it also depends on the degree one is attached to that understanding of oneself/the world ... You know what i mean, i.e.: to think that one has the truth because that suposed understanding and that due to that one is able to help others to reach that truth.

Which means that the sorrow you mention above may or may not be 'genuine' ... I mean, there are two types of sorrow in relation to what we're talking here ... One is caused by having some understanding and therefore seeing the 'ignorance' in others (and of course in oneself too) as a fact without any judge ... The other being caused by "I know the truth, how is it that they don't allow me to help them?" ... The former is genuine, while the later is false.

Mina Martini wrote:
The mind can never ever see or be the whole! That is the cause for all the misery, for all the misery!!!! It is what creates the world of division!!

Yes, agree with you ... Mind can never ever see or be the whole, which is itself with all its beauty and ugliness not divided from one each other but as a whole, without a single division produced by any label it can create to try to understand itself ... because labels have no meaning beyond the functionality to comunicate with one each other in this dual world.

Mina Martini wrote:
It may be that the people that you describe have not been completely involved with discussing with you,

This is not the point to me ... To me it doesn't matter if they are completely involved with me or not (do you remember what i've said above about genuine and false sorrow?) ... No, what matters is up to what point they are involved with discussing with themselves.

Time is over and i must get back to the post office
I'll continue later when i come back home

"Supper's Ready" from Genesis has been the music, and a coffee made with heart by the waitress has been the company while writting all this ... Until now! (don't know if this is a right expresion in english to convey "see you in a while")

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 03 Nov 2017.

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Tue, 07 Nov 2017 #8
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 162 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Mina:>what matters absolutely is the quality, the how, we live and interact with others, which of course is directly dependent on the degree (or perhaps beyond all degrees) of our understanding of ourselves/the world.

JUan:Agree with what you say, but if you let me i will add something more to your words ... To me it also depends on the degree one is attached to that understanding of oneself/the world ... You know what i mean, i.e.: to think that one has the truth because that suposed understanding and that due to that one is able to help others to reach that truth.

Mina: If there is attachment, there is no understanding. Understanding is freedom (not thought) and attachment is to thought, by thought, in the separation between thinker and thought. So, when talking about understanding in the first place, it is cleat that attachment has no place in it.

Juan:>Which means that the sorrow you mention above may or may not be 'genuine' ... I mean, there are two types of sorrow in relation to what we're talking here ... One is caused by having some understanding and therefore seeing the 'ignorance' in others (and of course in oneself too) as a fact without any judge ... The other being caused by "I know the truth, how is it that they don't allow me to help them?" ... The former is genuine, while the later is false.

Mina: Yes, either genuine, which is universal, or false, which is related to self/ego. Clear.

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Tue, 07 Nov 2017 #9
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 162 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Mina:>It may be that the people that you describe have not been completely involved with discussing with you,

Juan:This is not the point to me ... To me it doesn't matter if they are completely involved with me or not (do you remember what i've said above about genuine and false sorrow?) ... No, what matters is up to what point they are involved with discussing with themselves.

Mina: I of course meant what you say in your last sentence of the above paragraph. The understanding of oneself, or the degree of it, (if it is not absolute and therefore beyond all degrees and measure) IS the same as understanding another who again does not divide between oneself and the other. :-) (sounds complicated!! :-) ).

But everything is just clear...We can say in short that there is only the understanding of oneself, because when it is full, there is no other in it psychologically.

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