Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Subtlety


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Fri, 20 Oct 2017 #1
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

are not always the little subtle things that make the big difference ??

Ojai, California | 10th Public Talk 29th June, 1934

To me there is a reality, an immense living truth; and to comprehend that, there must be utter simplicity of thought. What is simple is infinitely subtle, what is simple is greatly delicate. There is a great subtlety, an infinite subtlety and delicacy, and if you use words merely as a means of getting to that delicacy, to that simplicity of thought, then I am afraid you will not comprehend what I want to convey. But if you would use the significance of words as a bridge to cross, then words will not become an illusion in which the mind is lost.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 20 Oct 2017.

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Mon, 23 Oct 2017 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Last week there was great excitement in the scientific world due to the evidence of the gravity wave, with time / space in motion by the unification of two neutron stars.
This great event far away had a minuscule measurable response here on earth.
This tiny measurable will have major consequences for how we look at reality. So they say.

It’s odd to see that talking over difficult things get so much attention on this forum and the obvious so little.

Lately some words lead to distortion while – in my view - not deepened there root for clarification of what might be the deeper meaning.

Take for example commandment used by Mina, who saw the obvious misinterpretation because of the Christian load on it by the connotation with the “ 10 commandments “ but if one take the trouble to look at the root of the word and depersonalize it, it is an assignment/dedication from a higher order, which was misused by Ceasar and after that in the whole pyramid structure of every organization and became a negative something while- if one also see the original naked form - one may also see it as something coming down from ‘ TRUTH ‘ being the highest of all orders !!

Quote Krishnamurti:
But if you would use the significance of words as a bridge to cross,
then words will not become an illusion in which the mind is lost.

Is this not also meant to be the gap between ” You and Me” to “WE”* ??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 23 Oct 2017 #3
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2040 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
which was misused by Ceasar and after that in the whole pyramid structure of every organization and became a negative something while- if one also see the original naked form - one may also see it as something coming down from ‘ TRUTH ‘ being the highest of all orders !!

There's two meanings to the word 'order' Wim. Not sure how you're using the word.

Wim Opdam wrote:
it is an assignment/dedication from a higher order,

This does sound like you're referring to authority....a 'higher' authority, which you believe in, perhaps. Sorry if I'm missing your point. It's not very clear what you're trying to say.

Let it Be

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Tue, 24 Oct 2017 #4
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
There's two meanings to the word 'order' Wim. Not sure how you're using the word.

Yes, that's why everyone has to approach it so carefully.

On the one hand there is giving and / or receiving assignments from a person and / or organization.
On the other hand, it is the sequence of levels within a structure.

We are as dependent on insects for the growth of our nutrition as well as for bacteria for the digestion. They are on different levels in the order of the one whole structure, aren’t they ?

Wim Opdam wrote:
it is an assignment/dedication from a higher order,

Tom Paine wrote:
This does sound like you're referring to authority....a 'higher' authority, which you believe in, perhaps. Sorry if I'm missing your point. It's not very clear what you're trying to say.

Yes this does sound like I’m referring to authority
but are we the authority of the bacteria or the insects ??
They do what they have to do, but are we ??

Did Einstein and/or Krishnamurti claim there authorities ??
No authority is given to them because of there extraordanairy work for humanity !!
Are we followers or following critical the evidence for what they informed us as a proposal, as a possibility ?

Does it not matter how or what one in particular is dealing with the proposed information ??
Is authority in itself bad or is it the way we handle it ….??

Following Blindly ........ or take advantage for our gain ......??

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 25 Oct 2017 #5
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Did Einstein and/or Krishnamurti claim there authorities ??

Another explanation of the word “authority” is ‘ taking the lead in an action ‘ !

Are we not taking the word ‘authority’ as a dead thing from the past
with all the load from that past with it ?
Putting it in a structure and thereby taking the wrong turn again ??
By the way psychology doesn’t have a past,
so if there is a wrong turn it’s always in the present !

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Wed, 25 Oct 2017 #6
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2040 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Another explanation of the word “authority” is ‘ taking the lead in an action ‘ !

Sure, and if we blindly follow we are not learning...we are a blind follower....still in the dark.

Are we not taking the word ‘authority’ as a dead thing from the past
with all the load from that past with it ?

I hope not. We are observing what it means in ourselves...as it manifests in ourselves, as a destructive influence. We can see it for ourselves, no....not just because K said it? K is just pointing to the danger of authority, and we are looking at what he is pointing to. That's not making him into an authority as I see it.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 25 Oct 2017.

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Wed, 25 Oct 2017 #7
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We can see it for ourselves, no....not just because K said it

yes, that's also the reason why he said:
' The speaker is not important ..but what he is saying is !'

Wim Opdam wrote:
By the way psychology doesn’t have a past,
so if there is a wrong turn it’s always in the present !

it became clear to me that even if one made a wrong turn in the past
and realy seeing that in the present, make sense !.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 30 Oct 2017 #8
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 590 posts in this forum Offline

More on Subtlety by K.

Benares, India | Fifth Public Talk, February 20, 1949

Questioner: You say the mind, memory and the thought process, have to cease before there can be understanding, and yet you are communicating to us. Is what you say the experience of something in the past, or are you experiencing as you communicate?

Krishnamurti: ... It is essential to have a still mind, a quiet mind, in order to understand, which is fairly obvious to those who have experimented with all this. The more you are interested in something, the more your intention to understand, the more simple, clear, free the mind is. Then verbalization ceases. After all, thought is word, and it is the word that interferes. It is the screen of words, which is memory, that intervenes between the challenge and the response. It is the word that is responding to the challenge, which we call intellection. So, the mind that is chattering, that is verbalizing, cannot understand truth - truth in relationship, not an abstract truth. There is no abstract truth. But truth is very subtle. It is the subtlety that is difficult to follow. It is not abstract. It comes so swiftly, so darkly, it cannot be held by the mind.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 30 Oct 2017 #9
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 162 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Krishnamurti: ... It is essential to have a still mind, a quiet mind, in order to understand, which is fairly obvious to those who have experimented with all this. The more you are interested in something, the more your intention to understand, the more simple, clear, free the mind is. Then verbalization ceases. After all, thought is word, and it is the word that interferes. It is the screen of words, which is memory, that intervenes between the challenge and the response. It is the word that is responding to the challenge, which we call intellection. So, the mind that is chattering, that is verbalizing, cannot understand truth - truth in relationship, not an abstract truth. There is no abstract truth. But truth is very subtle. It is the subtlety that is difficult to follow. It is not abstract. It comes so swiftly, so darkly, it cannot be held by the mind.

Mina: Yes, interesting to come across this quote at the moment when i was just feeling this subtlely of it all, actually had started writing something about it here when coming across these words. Yes, it is the subtlety that is involved in the ability to see the very very first appearance of thinker separate from thought, which demands completely silence of the mind, no step in the mind, for this to be realised.

We could say that the thinker is a relationship between thoughts and that is the place and the 'depth' where it moves, the content changing, but not the quality of this movement. It can only talk about itself and think about itself. It is only connected to itself, to its own limitation. Any step in thought/mind has already overlooked the subtlety of it.

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Mon, 30 Oct 2017 #10
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 162 posts in this forum Offline

part of the K quote in your initial post:

But if you would use the significance of words as a bridge to cross, then words will not become an illusion in which the mind is lost.

Mina: Yes..words coming from wholeness, and touching the human consciousness in the form of words of which the mind is made of, is like a hand of God being streched out amidst the mind that is lost in itself...that is the bridge, the shift in human consciousness... it is really a movement in timelessness that is the crossing, the shift..

But the mind cannot enter that bridge, actually, for the mind it will remain just another image to talk about.

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Mon, 30 Oct 2017.

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