Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Donald Trump's responses to the recent massacre


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Mon, 09 Oct 2017 #31
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 720 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

Amsterdam is crying where it once was laughing
and with her the whole country even the other city Rotterdam
from left to right from high to low from diplomat to criminal
from native to immigrant, from heterosexual to gay
a mayor died and a show of unprecedented togetherness

also that exists in a world like ours !!!

You seem to be referring to an incident of which I am not aware, Wim.
But it came to me and this is a tangent) if you take away the last line, the poem has quite a different meaning. A more universal one, reflecting the basic sorrow of humankind.

Hi Clive,

Immediately understanding that it was not understood
it took a while for the reason for it to become clear.

the meaning of the word show must be searched in the verbs: 'to express, to utter, to demonstrate, to enunciate, to emit or to predicate'

It was a spontaneous expression of appreciation for the seven years that the man was mayor and for which he was valued both locally and nationally.

So, among other things, he has - against the pressure of the national government - refused to receive President Putin in Amsterdam because of his anti-gay policy.
He was wars of all sorts of exaggerated protocols, and he received both the appreciation of the ordinary man and of the King, who physically supported him in one of his last public appearances.

At the same time, it is clear that without knowing facts, one can not understand and pass into integration into the own conceptual framework.

It was not meant to write a poem merely to describe how compassion and gratitude the people connected without any distinction !!.

It was not a cynical poem but a light in a changing world, it's not all bad and at the same time it can not be used as an escape argument for the bad state in which humanity is occupied, that is also happening !!

P.S..:After 15 minutes:

all what is, is an expression of love or a cry for love.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 09 Oct 2017.

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Mon, 09 Oct 2017 #32
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 234 posts in this forum Offline

Juan,

Mina:>if something is seen and lived as an absolute fact (anything absolute cannot be a creation of relative thought), there is no question, no doubt, no thought about it.

Juan:May i ask who resolve about its relativity or absoluteness within oneself?

Mina: If there was anyone, then that 'someone', would be an image, right? And could an image see and live anything absolute, anything that is beyond itself?

Juan: ... May i ask how many steps there are from this statement: "(anything absolute cannot be a creation of relative thought)", to "I have the absolute truth, follow me"?

Mina: Thought that is measure, contains the more and the less, the greater and the lesser degrees of something, the steps from one imagined state into another imagined state, in the form of becoming.

So, what is being seen here is that it is only if 'my' initial 'statement' was already an utterance from thinker/thought/measure, that taking more steps in psychological becoming, was possible.

But that which is not of thought and measure, can never become anything else than what it is! It never takes steps in time, in becoming. It never becomes divided, so it could never claim to have anything, (let alone those heavy words about having abolute truths and following someone'). There is never anything else but it, in it. That is why it can never be corrupted.

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Mon, 09 Oct 2017.

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Mon, 09 Oct 2017 #33
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 234 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Entertainment is not just about laughing, it's also about crying, commiserating, feeling sad, frightened, enthralled, outraged, etc. It is all a form of 'stimulation' isn't it?

Mina: Yes. We could say that entertainment is thought feeding and occupying itself, at large. It can happen in so many ways, as you point out above.

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Mon, 09 Oct 2017 #34
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 234 posts in this forum Offline

Wim!

Wim:>all what is, is an expression of love or a cry for love.

Mina: Wow Wim i love this!!! So true!!!

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Mon, 09 Oct 2017 #35
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 234 posts in this forum Offline

Juan,

MIna:>if you say such a thing, it is the reality you are creating for yourself and all humanity.

(Juan had said that it seems we are all continuing in the same psychological worn out path)

Mina:..that no compromise at any level with the world of thought/sorrow, is being made within you, when saying what you said about continuing in the same old path...

Juan:What are you doing, Mina? ... It's not you who says "I see only you and me or whomever, as the whole of humanity"? ...

Mina: Yes, talking to you as the whole of humanity indeed! This is why there is no distance or division between us. I am also the whole of humanity. :-)

(not talking about me and you as images. These clarifications, although at times tiring to keep referring to because it is so obvious already, but thinking about the readers mainly).

Juan: However you divide yourself from the other when you start interpreting his words putting later those interpretations in his mouth as if he had said what only you think he said ...

Mina: I am genuinely sorry if that is what you felt or what happened. I truly cannot say more because all I remember was the passion of insight that was somehow triggered by your words. And insights are never personal. Very difficult to go back to anything, but we can look afresh at what you said, if you want. Actually it already happened, on its own..:-) Posted it as a new thread.

Juan: This world does not need any saviors, but people who truly listen ... Are you one of them?

Mina: In receiving your question in silence, only silence remains. Not possible to see oneself as anything in it...because only silence is there. And it comes to me now that that is listening without a listener...and if there is healing for all, it is in the silence.

Love

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Mon, 09 Oct 2017.

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Tue, 10 Oct 2017 #36
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4328 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But what exactly causes this 'vulgarity' would you say, Clive?

The word “vulgarity” is an interesting one. According to my favourite website, http://www.etymonline.com/
vulgar means:

"common, ordinary," from Latin vulgaris, volgaris "of or pertaining to the common people, common, from vulgus "the common people, multitude, crowd, throng,"

So in essence vulgarity is simply what most people do.

It was not until the 17th century that the meaning of "coarse, low, ill-bred" came into use.

The dictionary quotes this example:

“What we have added to human depravity is again a thoroughly Roman quality, perhaps even a Roman invention: vulgarity. That word means the mind of the herd, and specifically the herd in the city, the gutter, and the tavern.” [Guy Davenport, "Wheel Ruts"]

K referred to the stream of human consciousness as “the vulgar stream”

So in this sense of the word, nothing has caused vulgarity especially, it is always there. A better question might be, “can one step out of the vulgar stream?”. And obviously this means much more than simply refining one's habits. What does it mean. That is a question I would like to go into.

Considering the other meaning of the word, the more specific meaning of coarse, crude, crass, unrefined, rude, even obscene, ….... where does it come from? I look into myself for an answer, and I would say it is too great a concern with sensation. The pleasures of the senses, distorted by thought, image. In his early talks, K used to talk of" being ruled by sensate values".

Perhaps this is our animal instincts, which are clearly still very dominant in us.

As to the example of Bruce Springsteen you mention, is that not more a question of being hurt? You do not say what he felt was the outcome of his gross mistreatment.

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Tue, 10 Oct 2017 #37
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2252 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Considering the other meaning of the word, the more specific meaning of coarse, crude, crass, unrefined, rude, even obscene, ….... where does it come from? I look into myself for an answer, and I would say it is too great a concern with sensation. The pleasures of the senses, distorted by thought, image

But all of that is an escape from conflict...from suffering....even if unconscious. That's why I said that suffering is the root of it. But I may be mistaken. How does a young child become crude? I noticed as a little kid that some boys were picking up this vulgar and crude behavior and speech from their older family members and older peers at an early age. Others were still a little shocked by it. Some boys would laugh when another boy tripped and fell or bumped their head or fell down in a sporting event or game. They got amusement, entertainment, from someone else's hurt. Isn't that because they feel relief from their own hurts (inner) by laughing at another's pain?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 10 Oct 2017.

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Tue, 10 Oct 2017 #38
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4328 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But all of that is an escape from conflict...from suffering....even if unconscious. That's why I said that suffering is the root of it. But I may be mistaken. How does a young child become crude? I noticed as a little kid that some boys were picking up this vulgar and crude behavior and speech from their older family members and older peers at an early age. Others were still a little shocked by it. Some boys would laugh when another boy tripped and fell or bumped their head or fell down in a sporting event or game. They got amusement, entertainment, from someone else's hurt. Isn't that because they feel relief from their own hurts (inner) by laughing at another's pain?

As I just touched upon in my last post, I would say the dominant force here is the 'instinctive” drive to conform to the group around one. And I would say this is an inherited animal instinct. It was a matter of physical survival. And now with modern mankind what has been added to that is the drive to conform psychologically.

This conformity often takes the form of turning on some weaker member of the group, doesn't it? As with dogs, wolves. I'm not an expert on this (except I certainly was a victim of the phenomena at school) but one can see how such behavour tends to increase the bond between the pack members. Ie, one feels more secure.

And one see that fear is the motive of conformity, not wanting to stand out, be vulnerable. And if one doesn't join in with the attacks on others, on might well find oneself the victim of such an attack oneself.

As for your question: “Isn't that because they feel relief from their own hurts (inner) by laughing at another's pain?”, - I don't honestly know.

“ I noticed as a little kid that some boys were picking up this vulgar and crude behavior and speech from their older family members and older peers at an early age” I think this can be explained by what I say above, but the explanation may not be complete. This phrase “picking up” is interesting. It obviously means “being conditioned”. Fear is a factor of conditioning, isn't it (along with pleasure). But I have a theory, a conviction, that what we appear to “pick up” is already in the stream of human consciousness. Somehow, given the right stimulus or circumstances, it manifests in us, that is, in a particular brain.

Hence, vulgarity.

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Wed, 11 Oct 2017 #39
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2252 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
As for your question: “Isn't that because they feel relief from their own hurts (inner) by laughing at another's pain?”, - I don't honestly know.

I'm a weak, insecure, unhappy little German in 1930. I join the Nazi party, and suddenly I gain an identity with something great in my mind. I am myself, suddenly larger in stature. I instigate the harassment of some Jews and I am admired by my peers....my fellow comrades. I grow even more in stature. My fears and insecurities are no longer in the forefront of my consciousness. I have an identity as something great...powerful...important now. I am somebody with a purpose instead of an insecure nobody floundering in the turbulence of life.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 11 Oct 2017.

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Thu, 12 Oct 2017 #40
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 720 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I'm a weak, insecure, unhappy little German in 1930. I join the Nazi party, and suddenly I gain an identity with something great in my mind.

why going back in time, Tom ??

Isn't going on here and now, Democrats, Republicans .....
Populists, Liberals and not to forget the state-capitalists in communism ??

Is this not obviously the same energy?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 12 Oct 2017 #41
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2252 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Is this not obviously the same energy?

Same, yes. We were discussing the violence of tge school kids here at one point.....actual physical violence as well as verbal taunting and abuse... that's the only reason I brought up the Nazis as an example. It's the way they treated the Jews even back before Hitler came to power.

Let it Be

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Thu, 12 Oct 2017 #42
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4328 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I'm a weak, insecure, unhappy little German in 1930. I join the Nazi party, and suddenly I gain an identity with something great in my mind. I am myself, suddenly larger in stature. I instigate the harassment of some Jews and I am admired by my peers....my fellow comrades. I grow even more in stature. My fears and insecurities are no longer in the forefront of my consciousness. I have an identity as something great...powerful...important now. I am somebody with a purpose instead of an insecure nobody floundering in the turbulence of life.

Yes, this would be pretty much the same thing that goes on in the playgrounds of schools, or later among the street gangs. Even in the relationships in offices, institutions, in somewhat more subtle ways, as I have heard.

The word "scapegoat" has significance in this, also.

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