Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Creation and destruction as one


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Thu, 28 Sep 2017 #61
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 766 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
In which way are we looking at that ugliness that abounds in the world?

With revulsion, with sadness that it is so , with pity, with the wish it could be different?

Juan E wrote:
in which way are we looking at that beauty that abounds in the world too?

We delight in it, thrilled by it, thankful for it?

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Thu, 28 Sep 2017 #62
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
If ugliness is beauty and beauty is ugliness, is there any inherent beauty, or ugliness in anything? ...

But I never said that , Juan. I think there's a language barrier. Love is not hate...false is not true. Sanity is not insanity. Order is not chaos or disorder. Truth is not illusion. Beauty is not the immense ugliness of the Holocaust or slavery.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 28 Sep 2017.

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Thu, 28 Sep 2017 #63
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 414 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
But I never said that , Juan.

No language barrier here, i didn't mention that you said that Tom, in fact it was myself who said it in #41 ("i only said that life is neither ugly nor beauty") and #50 ("There's no beauty divided from ugliness, because ugliness is contained in beauty and beauty in ugliness") :-)

Tom Paine wrote:
Love is not hate...false is not true. Sanity is not insanity. Truth is not illusion. Beauty is not the immense ugliness of the Holocaust or slavery.

False is not true when there exist 'true' and 'false', which is duality...

OK! ... Is there another way to look at life other than through two opposite labels (whichever they may be)? ... Because if there's no other way we are condemned to be in perpetual conflict (like Per. has said in another thread), until this ongoing Big Bang's Season 2.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Thu, 28 Sep 2017 #64
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 414 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

Juan E wrote:

In which way are we looking at that ugliness that abounds in the world?

With revulsion, with sadness that it is so , with pity, with the wish it could be different?

Juan E wrote:

in which way are we looking at that beauty that abounds in the world too?

We delight in it, thrilled by it, thankful for it?

Is this not duality then?

So, let me put again the same question i put to Tom in my last message to him (#63) ... Is there any other way to look at that which abounds in the world other than through those two labels, clinging to the feelings felt with one, and rejecting the feelings felt with the other? ... If the answer is not, i wander what are doing here trying to find out if it is possible or not to be free of our ever present conflicts? ...

Why nobody seems to see that looking at conflict through those labels never will end the conflict, on the contrary it will increase and increase until (again as Per. has said in another thread) this ongoing Big Bang's Season 2?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Thu, 28 Sep 2017 #65
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 414 posts in this forum Offline

Time to go bed ...
Good night (or Good morning) friends, listen to you tomorrow!

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Thu, 28 Sep 2017 #66
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
False is not true when there exist 'true' and 'false', which is duality...

Adolf Hitler: The Jews are an evil and inferior race.

Hitler's followers: This is true derr fuhrer.

Racist: Blacks are lazy and not as intelligent as Whites.

Are those statements true or false, Juan?

Juan E wrote:
OK! ... Is there another way to look at life other than through two opposite labels (whichever they may be)? ... Because if there's no other way we are condemned to be in perpetual conflict

There's no conflict when we see that war is ugly, not beautiful. There's no conflict when we see the beauty in the smile of a young child.

Let it Be

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #67
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 414 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Are those statements true or false, Juan?

Why are you forcing me to look at them as true or false, Tom?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #68
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Are those statements true or false, Juan?
Why are you forcing me to look at them as true or false, Tom?

No one can force you, Juan, if you don't want to see the fact...face the reality that the mind creates all the false images of Blacks being inferior or superior....or Jews being evil or good/better.

Let it Be

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #69
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 414 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Can't you discern between the beauty and love on the one hand and the hatred and horror on the other?

This discernment you mention is duality unless you're able to see that the beauty of the rose is based in its dying from moment to moment ... There's no beautiful rose, and an ugly withered rose, only the rose which ceases to be rose from moment to moment ... It's because we are not able to see that (or perhaps because we are afraid to acknowledge that it is the only reality, also of ourselves) that we've created the beauty of the rose, and the ugliness of a withered rose, still living in that duality after centuries trying to make the beautiful rose immortal when this is impossible ... But if we were able to see the actuality of the rose, we would be able to see also the beauty of a withered rose and not just its ugliness.

If you look at my words from that duality it will appear to you as if i was saying that there's beauty in the holocaust, whilst i'm just saying that there's neither beauty, nor ugliness in it but just ignorance ... your ignorance as well as mine, which is the real cause of any holocaust ... just because we are incapable to look at the beauty of a rose dying from moment to moment the same that we are dying from moment to moment.

And without that looking, love is absolutely impossible.

I think i should be sleeping, but maybe i'm sleeping already and i'm writing this from a dream :-)
Now yes, time to go to bed ... Good night for the third time ;-)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 29 Sep 2017.

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #70
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 414 posts in this forum Offline

@Tom and Dan,

I have already answered your #69 and #70 posts in my #71 post
Let me go to sleep, please!! ;-) ;-) ... 2:44 at night here!
I will respond any post tomorrow ... if i'm able to wake up! ;-)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #71
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 766 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
It's because we are not able to see that (or perhaps because we are afraid to acknowledge that it is the only reality, also of ourselves) that we've created the beauty of the rose, and the ugliness of a withered rose, still living in that duality trying to make the beautiful rose immortal when this is impossible ... But if we were able to see the actuality of the rose, we would be able to see also the beauty of a withered rose and not just its ugliness.

I see no ugliness in any stage of a rose's existence. But I do see the 'ugliness' that man has created.

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #72
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 414 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I see no ugliness in any stage of a rose's existence. But I do see the 'ugliness' that man has created.

Then, perhaps you should stop talking about man and just say "I do see the ugliness that *I* have created" and go on from there, forgetting about any other human being other than yourself ... But if one divides oneself from others (as we use to do all the time when we talk about 'man doing this or that'), if one thinks even for a moment "I have nothing to do with the ugliness man has created, with the Holocaust and so on", one is living in that very same duality that created that ugliness he is pointing out, thinking illusory that he is out of it ...

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 29 Sep 2017.

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #73
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 162 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Then, perhaps you should stop talking about man and just say "I do see the ugliness that I have created" and go on from there, forgetting about any other human being other than yourself ... But if one divides oneself from others (as we use to do all the time when we talk about 'man doing this or that'), if one thinks even for a moment "I have nothing to do with the ugliness man has created, with the Holocaust and so on", one is living in that very same duality that created that ugliness he is pointing out, thinking illusory that he is out of it ...

Mina: Yes, exactly. This is why unless it is directly seen that the observer IS the observed or in other words that you ARE the world of division that you seem to be talking about as if it was at some distance, (and you do so because it is the very division and distance in you then talking and looking) you are adding to that brutality, to that ugliness that you then may be persistently talking about, as if independent of your own inner state.

It is the world of division that is the ugliness itself, in the very concepts of ugly/beautiful (all opposites psychologically which are the creation of the observer separate from the observed) lies the only ugliness, the wrongness, because it divides man from man and is responsible for all the suffering of all.

When you see that you ARE the world, directly, and no thought can see directly without the twist of the observer and the observed, this division is not in the seeing!

You can still see the brtualities the divided mind is creating, when you come into contact with the energy of it, but since you are not looking from the place where division is born and maintained, there is nothing in you that resonates with that energy level, so it does not continue in you. This is not indifference, not that 'one does not care about the world', it is on the contrary the ultimate caring which can be fundamentally nothing other but the division ending in oneself.

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #74
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 766 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
It is the world of division that is the ugliness itself, in the very concepts of ugly/beautiful (all opposites psychologically which are the creation of the observer separate from the observed) lies the only ugliness, the wrongness, because it divides man from man and is responsible for all the suffering of all.

Yes, the division (of a self-image separate and apart) is the same now as it was a thousand years ago. As long as I maintain and perpetuate it, I am it and as such am responsible for everything that has been done as a result of that division.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 29 Sep 2017.

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #75
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
if one thinks even for a moment "I have nothing to do with the ugliness man has created, with the Holocaust and so on", one is living in that very same duality that created that ugliness he is pointing out, thinking illusory that he is out of it ...

Pointing out the ugliness of racism and Nazism, and authoritarianisn is not necessarily separating oneself, is it? K talked about those 'ugly' factors that destroy life, didn't he? We are not saying 'we' are out of it....above it. Unconsciously I may feel "It's not me....I'd never do that." Yet we may accept subtle forms of authoritarianism in ourselves....conform to it inward or outwardly. Force it on our spouse or child. I see that. K often spoke of beauty. The beauty of the natural world that he often observed on his daily walks. I don't see why you feel it's false or misleading to speak of beauty and false to speak of ugliness... the ugliness of the sweat shop or the factory....the exploitation and the misery of the workers. In Mary Zimbalist's diary she told of having dinner with K in a hotel restaurant when they were traveling and K being repulsed by the 'ugliness'(my word) of the diners stuffing themselves with plates full of large portions of meat. Well he found it quite repulsive, so I assume I can use the word ugly to mean essentially the same.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 29 Sep 2017.

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #76
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
It is the world of division that is the ugliness itself,

It is the cause of the ugliness, yes. Division in myself and between man and his fellow man. But you're using the word that Juan says we must not use...ugliness... because it divides. Best to just say division is 'what is' and look into the factors that bring it about. Look at it objectively without any labels.

Let it Be

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #77
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 162 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
It is the cause of the ugliness, yes. Division in myself and between man and his fellow man. But you're using the word that Juan says we must not use...ugliness... because it divides. Best to just say division is 'what is' and look into the factors that bring it about. Look at it objectively without any labels.

Mina: I used the word intentionally to point out that the 'ugliness' is in the act of division itself, like between the concepts of ugly and beautiful. So, the choice of word came from wanting to use the same word 'ugly', but NOT in any sense of label or judgement, not in a dualistic sense.

No word divides by itself, no, but only when identified with. There has to be an experiencer of division for any division to take place, which means a thinker separate from thought. By a mere act of using one word instead of another, we are not moving at the fundamental level, unless there is seeing beyond all words.

And no authorities please..."You are using the word that Juan says we must not use.." :-) This is not the reason not to use it. One has to see for oneself and act in that seeing, all else can go.

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Fri, 29 Sep 2017.

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Fri, 29 Sep 2017 #78
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
And no authorities please..."You are using the word that Juan says we must not use.." :-)

I promise I won't make Juan into an authority ;) Not sure I understand the rest of what you're trying to say. This thread has gone on too far with too many twists and turns for my brain to follow. If I find a strand that seems important to look into, I'll return. Otherwise it's gotten too confusing for my brain to sort through and make some sense out of. Poor Juan was up half the night trying to clarify his point/s, and I don't have his energy. May return later

Let it Be

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Sat, 30 Sep 2017 #79
Thumb_img-0590 Mina Martini Finland 162 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
I promise I won't make Juan into an authority ;) Not sure I understand the rest of what you're trying to say. This thread has gone on too far with too many twists and turns for my brain to follow. If I find a strand that seems important to look into, I'll return. Otherwise it's gotten too confusing for my brain to sort through and make some sense out of. Poor Juan was up half the night trying to clarify his point/s, and I don't have his energy. May return later

Mima_ :-) It is not about Juan, or anyone else, being authority or not, even, (because one does not see Juan as separate from oneself in the first place and then ask not to make him into an authority, that would be division/thought talking) but just about what happens at the moment we replace our own understanding, own perception, with words of others. We can then no longer be authentic and EMPTY, as some ideas, (either our own or coming from others, makes no difference) are already occupying a corner in the house which is in order only when totally empty from content.

Good, very good if your brain cannot follow 'twists and turns' of thought or make sense of things at the verbal or intellectual level. No thought is needed to be given into this. What liberation, what relief! :-)

Yes, Juan did good clarifying work in the thread indeed!

Be well dear. I have understood you have some health issues and often suffer from low energy owing to that condition. You also have Donna to take care of, if I have understood correcty, and that is continuous work also without any breaks....hope you can get enough rest. At least in the kitchen you are saving energy with your..ehem...rather simplistic cooking...:-) Love...

m

This post was last updated by Mina Martini Sat, 30 Sep 2017.

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Sat, 30 Sep 2017 #80
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2045 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
hope you can get enough rest. At least in the kitchen you are saving energy with your..ehem...rather simplistic cooking...:-)

Haha...glad you understand :) And we're staying healthy too. I may purchase a juicer one day to make fresh vegetable juice. Donna has a problem chewing so I don't make salads. Used to eat them a lot when younger. Thank you so much for your kind and understanding post, Mina. I needed to read that today, being tired and rather worn out again this AM. Haven't had my tea yet, so that will help a bit. But it's a bit like beating a tired horse that needs rest, not stimulating. Good points about authority...whether of Juan, K, Mina, Tom, Buddha, Jesus..... words and ideas essentially, replacing understanding....looking...listening. Now if those words are pointing to something real, they may bring some understanding to the listener....no doubt about that. But that's not making an authority of the one who is pointing. As K once said, if you are lost on the road and someone points you in the direction to get to your destination, you don't put him up on a pedestal and worship him/her.

Love you, too.

Let it Be

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