Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

The personal IS the collective


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Tue, 11 Jul 2017 #1
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive:>What is this personal mind, Mina?

I am not convinced that there is any such thing.
Just the common human mind, manifesting in you, in me, in everyone.

Mina: It is the illusion of the personal manifesting as the 'commom human mind'. If you really see there is no personal mind, there can be no common mind either, because the personal is the collective, without division.

By what you say, you seem to separate the two, or rather say that there is only the collective. And I am saying that neither the personal nor the collective can survive in seeing the whole, because both come to existence only when the observer appears as separate from the observed.

So if it is really seen there is 'only the common human mind', that mind cannot survive!

Whatever is understood/seen, not from thought/knowledge but in silence, disappears, because in silence there can be nothing but silence. Subject/object (personal/collective in this context) exist only for thought, both as its creator and as its experiencer.

Is anyone with me?

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Tue, 11 Jul 2017 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 553 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
Is anyone with me?

dear Mina,

Realizing that you didn't mean it in such a way, I prefer a 'particular' instead of a 'personal' mind. It gives the suggestion of possession of a person.
It does not matter if someone is with me or not.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Tue, 11 Jul 2017 #3
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Wim Opdam wrote:
Realizing that you didn't mean it in such a way, I prefer a 'particular' instead of a 'personal' mind. It gives the suggestion of possession of a person.
It does not matter if someone is with me or not.

Mina: I was talking of the personal mind, the illusory mind, also appearing as the collective personal mind, without division between the two.

I was saying that in seeing the illusory nature of the personal at the level of the particular, is therefore also seeing the collective illusion, because they are inseparable.

Beyond the psychological mind (personal and collecively personal), the 'particular' is a good word, no longer carrying any psychological meaning to it.

Of course fundamentally it does not matter 'if anyone is with me', as there is no me, or you, in seeing what is true. I did not use the words in any particular sense, just perhaps as an invitation to possible discussion. Not presenting opinions and asking others to agree with me! :-)

m

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Tue, 11 Jul 2017 #4
Thumb_avatar P Sylvan United Kingdom 16 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
Whatever is understood/seen, not from thought/knowledge but in silence, disappears, because in silence there can be nothing but silence.

Hello Mina,

When you say that:

“Whatever is understood/seen … in silence, disappears”

I am understanding you to mean that everything that is the consequence of a movement away from what is actual, disappears when “understood/seen” in silence. In other words, it is the movement away from what is actual that disappears and what is actual remains within that silence.

“because in silence there can be nothing but silence.”

Does this silence exclude any-thing arising within it?

Paul

In the spirit of dialogue

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Wed, 12 Jul 2017 #5
Thumb_avatar P Sylvan United Kingdom 16 posts in this forum Offline

“And the freeing of the mind from its conditioning through self-knowing brings about a new mind which is neither individual nor collective; that mind is something totally new.”

VARANASI 7TH PUBLIC TALK 14TH JANUARY 1962

Paul

In the spirit of dialogue

This post was last updated by P Sylvan Wed, 12 Jul 2017.

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Thu, 13 Jul 2017 #6
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

P Sylvan wrote:
“And the freeing of the mind from its conditioning through self-knowing brings about a new mind which is neither individual nor collective; that mind is something totally new.”

M: Glad to read those words, pointing to the same.

I seems to me from many posts I have read here also, that the word 'collective' is used as if 'beyond the individual' or 'more than the individual', but actually there is no separation between the two. Yes, the 'collective' perhaps becomes an idea of the whole, but the whole is not to be found within the fragmentation of thought and its creations.

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