Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

A question to Olive to be shared with all...


Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 33 in total
Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #1
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Olive,

You say in another thread about threads :-), the following:

"I would love to begin a ton of new threads, but I have a slightly different point of view than K "

-m: your sentence puzzled me some, because 'this' (life in its totality!) is not clearly about any limited point of view.

All 'great thinkers' (who do not think) are pointing to the same one Reality, beyond all opinions and points of view (beyond thought)..and all have their own unique ways of expression, but the source is the same.

In this light I am curious to ask you further, what is implied in this 'slightly different point of view than K'.

Love
Mina

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #2
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 892 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
In this light I am curious to ask you further, what is implied in this 'slightly different point of view than K'.

Hi

I'm not Olive either:) but I think it is important to remember that one has to be a 'light unto oneself', there is no other way. No-one can be that light for you. Only we can 'illuminate' what it is that is in our mind, no-one can force us to do it and obviously no-one can do that for us.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #3
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
m: your sentence puzzled me some, because 'this' (life in its totality!) is not clearly about any limited point of view.

'Point of view' seems to imply 'knowledge of'...or interpretation of....so I can see why it seems puzzling here.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #4
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 723 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
'Point of view' seems to imply 'knowledge of'...or interpretation of....
so I can see why it seems puzzling here.

Hi Tom

Is it not much simpler 'Point of view' is the center from which it's seen.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #5
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
That's, i think, why Olive (and probably many others) have not posted any thread here trying to express an 'slightly different point of view than K' ...

Did K have a point of view? What does that phrase actually imply....when observing oneself....or worse, when observing a friend or neighbor? Do we observe from a point of view?

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #6
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Do we observe from a point of view?

What I meant in the be a 'light to yourself' was that then there is no 'point of view' only the seeing (illumination) of what's there. The 'point of view' 'normally' would be judgement, comparison, etc. The 'point of view' of the 'me', the 'self'. If I try to 'adopt' K.s or anyones 'point of view', it is imitation...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 22 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #7
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Did K have a point of view?
Well...

THE DISSOLUTION OF THE ORDER OF THE STAR
Ommen, Holland, 1929
That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally.

II don't want to play with words here, but I think he was speaking of an understanding rather than a point of view. When K said that "Truth is a pathless land", was that a point of view? Perhaps you see it that way, Juan, but I question that. If we're sharing our understanding here....of conflict....of fear....of desire....craving....then we're not sharing points of view, are we?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 22 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Maybe it would be best if Olive would clarify her meaning. Then we are not misinterpreting her intended message....or point of view.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #9
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
You see Tom, how is it that you are able to understand what K was trying to express there by going beyond his words, and you're not able to do the same with the words of our friend Olive?

Guilty as charged :) But, I'm familiar with K for many, many years, so I can pretty much assume he meant 'understand'. Olive's been here for a few months and shes never yet said "I have a different understanding of 'X' than K".
But,let's put it to rest...if Olive has a different understanding than K, then let's move on to that. Perhaps she'll share how she understands something differently than K. So far she's not explained how she sees things(anything) differently than he did.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #10
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 4369 posts in this forum Offline

A pity that Olive herself has not come to the party yet :-)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #11
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Elwell wrote:
A pity that Olive herself has not come to the party yet :-)

Mina: I, for my part, feel like leaving the party!

-Amazing how many words and speculations were provoked by the post and how the spirit in which it was written, and the fundamental quality of my initial question, felt lost in the replies. I have difficulty in pointing my finger to the delicate points where speculations/opinions seem to take over...

The issue was really about whether it is ever possible that beyond reflection, thought, fragmentation, there could still remain anything separate, any 'point of view'? -By the 'point of view' I mean, as Wim said, the center, the 'me', that looks, from and in thought always.

(Perhaps better to forget 'what olive meant by saying this or that', it seems to increase the speculative nature of the discussion and is not the point really. It is the looking together that matters.)

In seeing the limitation of ANY point of view (no matter how much they appear to differ, it is always the centre looking, so there is no fundamental difference at all), none can survive.

ONly then can there be true relationship between us that is not divided by opinion, or the 'being a light unto oneself' to which Dan referred..

This post was last updated by Mina Martini (account deleted) Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #12
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
a slightly different point of view

Mina Martini wrote:
Amazing how many words and speculations were provoked by the post and how the spirit in which it was written, and the fundamental quality of my initial question, felt lost in the replies.

Hi Mina,

Yes Mina, it is amazing to see what happens here.

But those speculations are answering your question about my words:”slightly different point of view”.

Do we know ourselves as limited separate self, or

Do we understand ourselves to be unlimited everpresent awareness?

If we know ourselves as limited separate selves, we keep searching for answers we keep asking why?

And yes I say searching as in an activity, as in something to achieve, because the fact that we know ourselves as separate selves IS already an activity, the resistance of the unlimited everpresent awareness that we realy are.

If we understand ourselves to be unlimited everpresent awareness, the questions and searching stops, because there is understanding.

And about 'great thinkers' :

For example Descartes, he said: “ I think therefore I am”

Is he pointing to the one reality?

No, he stopted to early with his investigation.

He clearly knows himself as a separate entity.

So, experience alone must be the test of reality.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #13
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Yes Mina, it is amazing to see what happens here.

But you are 'what happens here', no? We all are. I read your post about 'ever present awareness'. It does seem to depart from K's statement that 'you are the world'....the conflict, the brutality, violence, greed, fear, etc. Is there any way that you see any commonality with what K constantly tried to point out....that the observer is the observed? That the violence/conflict in the world is not separate from the violence/conflict in me?

Olive B wrote:
If we understand ourselves to be unlimited everpresent awareness, the questions and searching stops, because there is understanding.

Understanding or a religious belief? It's quite easy to brainwash oneself and to have religious experiences based upon one's belief/s.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #14
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 892 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
If we understand ourselves to be unlimited everpresent awareness, the questions and searching stops, because there is understanding.

Hi Olive

Wouldn't it be more accurate to rephrase your statement as: "I understand myself to be unlimited ever-present awareness and because I have this understanding, my questions and searching has stopped".

I think Tom's point about "religious experiences" is that we're all just a 'stone's throw' from delusion. That we'll latch onto anything that we think can help us out of this 'mess'. So I would say for myself that though I have a strong intellectual attraction to the idea of being "unlimited ever-present awareness", I do not "understand" myself to be that (though there are insights and intimations etc.) and therefore the "questions" and the "searching" continues.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #15
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 892 posts in this forum Offline

No Juan the point I was making was her using "we" instead of 'I'. You'll have to ask her why she put in the "gap".

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #16
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I think Tom's point about "religious experiences" is that we're all just a 'stone's throw' from delusion. T

Actually K himself said something very similar....and he was including himself. But it's not just that... we may in fact have had some great 'experience' of being that formless, infinite, awarenes; but then we turn it into dead knowledge.... a new identity. Our questioning is over....along with our listening to one another.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #17
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
we may in fact have had some great 'experience' of being that formless, infinite, awareness;...

I think Olive as well as K. is pointing out, that we are in fact that. So from that 'point of view', everything else is an 'escape'. The questioning, the conclusions, the beliefs, the search,the desire to 'become' (the self, the ego) are all 'escapes' from being what I already am, and always have been, and couldn't not be, "naked, unadorned, awareness".

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #18
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 892 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
but i wonder if there will be an answer after us having been labeled already as 'speculators' ... ;-)

Not to mention 'escape' artists. :)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #19
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I think Olive as well as K. is pointing out, that we are in fact that. So from that 'point of view', everything else is an 'escape'. The questioning, the conclusions, the beliefs, the search,the desire to 'become' (the self, the ego) are all 'escapes' from being what I already am, and always have been, and couldn't not be, "naked, unadorned, awareness".

Did K say that? If he did I wonder why Olive said she has a 'different point of view'. Does it make sense if I'm angry to say 'I am formless, infinite awareness'? In a moment of anger, I am that anger, no? That would be only a belief or idea to say 'I' am something else.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #20
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Not to mention 'escape' artists. :)

Escaping from conflict...'what is'.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #21
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Does it make sense if I'm angry to say 'I am formless, infinite awareness'?

No. The idea as I understand it is that that is what we are in
"essence" (as well as every other living thing.) I can't 'know' it or 'grasp' it since I am it. But if you 'contemplate' yourself as 'being no-thing' say, then your attachments and your image of yourself as 'something' may make it clearer as to why we become angry, addicted, anxious etc. when things go 'wrong'. Things 'go wrong' because the brain/thought has created this myth of the 'me' and the 'mine'.
(Trying to make psychologically, something out of no-thing?)

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #22
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 723 posts in this forum Offline

THE DISSOLUTION OF THE ORDER OF THE STAR
Ommen, Holland, 1929

That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally.

And he shared his point of view with everyone absolutely and unconditionally
and not because he wanted to disturb or not to disturb others nor he owned it or kept it for himself.

So what's the drive one is going by.... is one afraid or challenging,
what's the force behind this activity ??
Is this from the center or for the whole, shouldn't that be the question ??

My mother had a wise saying:
"When we had little we could share, now we have so much we cannot."

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #23
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The idea as I understand it is that that is what we are in
"essence" (as well as every other living thing.)

Yes, that is an 'idea', Dan. What good is an idea when faced with the fact ...the reality of daily life...the reality of fear or anger or loneliness? The fact is real, no? The idea is .....well, an idea, not actuality.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #24
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Yes, that is an 'idea', Dan. What good is an idea when faced with the fact ...the reality of daily life.

'Idea' is my word, I think that it's more than that but thats my opinion. So what is 'reality', what we are in 'essence' or this confused , troubled, violent, searching, 'self'?

And though I can't 'grasp' it since I am in essence 'it', 'it' can grasp the whole of 'me': body, feeling and thought, even if for only an instant.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #25
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
So what is 'reality', what we are in 'essence' or this confused , troubled, violent, searching, 'self'?

Whatever we are, we won't get very far by speculating, I don't think. Or thinking about our formless essence, which is only an image. It seems to me that what is is the 'trouble'...conflict....violence....confusion. And we don't want to look at that, but want to imagine we are NOT that.

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 24 Jun 2017 #26
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 892 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Whatever we are, we won't get very far by speculating,

I really think that this wanting to "get very far" is the problem. Where do we want to get to? Somewhere other than where we are? Wanting to 'get somewhere' (psychologically) is what I understand to be 'becoming'. How about you? Doesn't that wish bring in 'time'...I'm not this now but I want to become it in the future...

You don't seem to care for this 'airy-fairy' stuff, because you have 'real' not imagined problems and that imaginary stuff is just another escape...so what is it that keeps you having these problems? Why don't you just walk away from them? Why do you 'put up' with them?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 24 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 24 Jun 2017 #27
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
..I'm not this now but I want to become it in the future...

So what are we now, then? Can we look at it without wanting to become something else.....without speculating whether we are formless awareness or something else in 'essence'? What exactly are we if we eliminate becoming? Or are we always trying to be something other than what actually is? Something other than the fear, the anger or confusion....and the escaping from that to the ideal?

Let it Be

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 24 Jun 2017 #28
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Why don't you just walk away from them? Why do you 'put up' with them?

The state we're in is the fact....the reality, no? Is there someone separate who can 'walk away'? The anger is a part of me, no? Can I walk away from what I am?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 24 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 24 Jun 2017 #29
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2256 posts in this forum Offline

Dan: You don't seem to care for this 'airy-fairy' stuff, because you have 'real' not imagined problems and that imaginary stuff is just another escape..

Tom:
"Airy fairy"? Hahaha....if you mean imaginary, yes. If I get angry at my spouse, my anger isn't imaginary, is it? The fact of anger is real. When I'm craving a smoke, that's imaginary in your view? Or isn't the craving very real? (Not saying I have those particular issues myself). Are the alcoholic beggars in my town imaginary? We'd like to believe so, most likely....believe that their suffering is imaginary.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sat, 24 Jun 2017.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 24 Jun 2017 #30
Thumb_open-uri20171115-31086-13da1wu-0 Dan McDermott United States 892 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Yes, anger is real ... What follows next?

Thinking about this morning...my first question is do I really want to end 'anger' in myself? I think some people don't, they seem angry all the time. So lets say I see how destructive it can be and like conflict, jealousy, etc. I want an end to it in myself. I think that would be first. Then I realize that 'anger' is an effect, so in order to understand how and why it arises, I have to discover the cause or causes. For me, anger arises when something happens that I 'feel' is wrong. When I feel wronged, misunderstood, under appreciated , humiliated, etc. But whatever the 'cause' turns out to be, it seems to affect something negatively that I am attached to: my 'self' esteem, my sense of 'right and wrong', my sense of 'fairness', my 'image' of myself, etc...So from that, my question becomes: "why am I attached to anything"? Is it necessary to be attached psychologically, identified, with anything? It's logical that if I am attached to something and that 'something' is questioned, threatened, flouted, etc that this can bring about this response called which results in 'anger'. This is 'analysis' but self-knowledge is the actual observing in myself of the causes that lead inevitably to conflict and anger. Just always trying to observe 'anger' in myself is too late...the train is already coming down the track. I have to discover the things in myself (attachment, identification, beliefs...) that ultimately bring about this destructive response. But this 'learning' can't be done with a 'motive',(self-improvement) it has to be done, I think, in 'meditation' and without any goal to 'become'.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 33 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)