Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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A question to Olive to be shared with all...


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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #1
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Olive,

You say in another thread about threads :-), the following:

"I would love to begin a ton of new threads, but I have a slightly different point of view than K "

-m: your sentence puzzled me some, because 'this' (life in its totality!) is not clearly about any limited point of view.

All 'great thinkers' (who do not think) are pointing to the same one Reality, beyond all opinions and points of view (beyond thought)..and all have their own unique ways of expression, but the source is the same.

In this light I am curious to ask you further, what is implied in this 'slightly different point of view than K'.

Love
Mina

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #2
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
what is implied in this 'slightly different point of view than K'.

I'm not Olive, but i would like to share also my feelings about Olive's words ...

When i read them few days ago, my inner feeling was that Olive was trying to avoid misunderstandings and therefore unnecessary conflicts by starting a thread with a "slightly different point of view than K" ...

So, regarding the question you put to him/her i would say that those words could imply an own vision of life, that perhaps one would like to share/discuss/dialog with others not in the way of accuser/defender somehow, but openly, without any walls ...

In a word, to me Olive is bringing up the whole question of true relationship between the members of a forum in which its members try to discuss K's "teaching" ... And to me also, you have taken over this task by opening this new thread ... that is in our hands (in every member's hands), to take advantage of it or not.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #3
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 740 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
In this light I am curious to ask you further, what is implied in this 'slightly different point of view than K'.

Hi

I'm not Olive either:) but I think it is important to remember that one has to be a 'light unto oneself', there is no other way. No-one can be that light for you. Only we can 'illuminate' what it is that is in our mind, no-one can force us to do it and obviously no-one can do that for us.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #4
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2003 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
m: your sentence puzzled me some, because 'this' (life in its totality!) is not clearly about any limited point of view.

'Point of view' seems to imply 'knowledge of'...or interpretation of....so I can see why it seems puzzling here.

Let it Be

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #5
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 554 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
'Point of view' seems to imply 'knowledge of'...or interpretation of....
so I can see why it seems puzzling here.

Hi Tom

Is it not much simpler 'Point of view' is the center from which it's seen.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #6
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
'Point of view' seems to imply 'knowledge of'...or interpretation of....so I can see why it seems puzzling here.


Wim Opdam wrote:
Is it not much simpler 'Point of view' is the center from which it's seen.

That's, i think, why Olive (and probably many others) have not posted any thread here trying to express an 'slightly different point of view than K' ...

LONDON 2ND PUBLIC TALK 9TH OCTOBER 1949


Probably most of us have definite views, or we have come to definite conclusions from which it is very difficult to deviate or to look at another point of view;

What do you think he's referring to with "another point of view"? ...
... to his own, to Olive's point of view, to yours point of view ... or?

LONDON 2ND PUBLIC TALK 9TH OCTOBER 1949 (cont.)


because most of us have lived quite painfully, have suffered, and we have come to certain points of view which we find difficult to change; and if we listen to another at all, we listen through the screen of our own conclusions, of our own experiences, of our own knowledge, and so it is extremely difficult to understand another fully and completely.

Are you sure that your observations about the words used by Olive are not a "point of view" too?

LONDON 2ND PUBLIC TALK 9TH OCTOBER 1949 (cont.)


And, if I may suggest, we should, for the time being, or at least for this morning, put aside our particular conclusions and points of view, and try to consider together the problems that confront us.

How many of us are willing to listen to Olive's point of view without any point of view?
Raise your hands, please! ;-)


As i've said in #2, all this is directly related to our actual relation between one each other in the forums ... To look at if we are really related one each other despite all our particular "points of view", or not due to our (gross or subtle) attachment to them ...

Is there anybody interested in going deep into this?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Thu, 22 Jun 2017.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #7
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2003 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
That's, i think, why Olive (and probably many others) have not posted any thread here trying to express an 'slightly different point of view than K' ...

Did K have a point of view? What does that phrase actually imply....when observing oneself....or worse, when observing a friend or neighbor? Do we observe from a point of view?

Let it Be

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #8
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Do we observe from a point of view?

Absolutely everything we observe is from a point of view until it is seen directly ... Are you trying to say that you're able to observe a friend or neighbor without absolutely no conceptualization?

Tom Paine wrote:
Did K have a point of view?

Well...

THE DISSOLUTION OF THE ORDER OF THE STAR
Ommen, Holland, 1929


That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Thu, 22 Jun 2017.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #9
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 740 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Do we observe from a point of view?

What I meant in the be a 'light to yourself' was that then there is no 'point of view' only the seeing (illumination) of what's there. The 'point of view' 'normally' would be judgement, comparison, etc. The 'point of view' of the 'me', the 'self'. If I try to 'adopt' K.s or anyones 'point of view', it is imitation...

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Thu, 22 Jun 2017.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #10
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2003 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Did K have a point of view?
Well...

THE DISSOLUTION OF THE ORDER OF THE STAR
Ommen, Holland, 1929
That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally.

II don't want to play with words here, but I think he was speaking of an understanding rather than a point of view. When K said that "Truth is a pathless land", was that a point of view? Perhaps you see it that way, Juan, but I question that. If we're sharing our understanding here....of conflict....of fear....of desire....craving....then we're not sharing points of view, are we?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 22 Jun 2017.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #11
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2003 posts in this forum Offline

Maybe it would be best if Olive would clarify her meaning. Then we are not misinterpreting her intended message....or point of view.

Let it Be

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #12
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
II don't want to play with words here, but I think he was speaking of an understanding rather than a point of view.

Aaaah!

You see Tom, how is it that you are able to understand what K was trying to express there by going beyond his words, and you're not able to do the same with the words of our friend Olive?

Does anybody see now how this thread talks about our relationship here as participants of this forum?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #13
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2003 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
You see Tom, how is it that you are able to understand what K was trying to express there by going beyond his words, and you're not able to do the same with the words of our friend Olive?

Guilty as charged :) But, I'm familiar with K for many, many years, so I can pretty much assume he meant 'understand'. Olive's been here for a few months and shes never yet said "I have a different understanding of 'X' than K".
But,let's put it to rest...if Olive has a different understanding than K, then let's move on to that. Perhaps she'll share how she understands something differently than K. So far she's not explained how she sees things(anything) differently than he did.

Let it Be

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #14
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3743 posts in this forum Offline

A pity that Olive herself has not come to the party yet :-)

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #15
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 614 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Clive Elwell wrote:
A pity that Olive herself has not come to the party yet :-)

Mina: I, for my part, feel like leaving the party!

-Amazing how many words and speculations were provoked by the post and how the spirit in which it was written, and the fundamental quality of my initial question, felt lost in the replies. I have difficulty in pointing my finger to the delicate points where speculations/opinions seem to take over...

The issue was really about whether it is ever possible that beyond reflection, thought, fragmentation, there could still remain anything separate, any 'point of view'? -By the 'point of view' I mean, as Wim said, the center, the 'me', that looks, from and in thought always.

(Perhaps better to forget 'what olive meant by saying this or that', it seems to increase the speculative nature of the discussion and is not the point really. It is the looking together that matters.)

In seeing the limitation of ANY point of view (no matter how much they appear to differ, it is always the centre looking, so there is no fundamental difference at all), none can survive.

ONly then can there be true relationship between us that is not divided by opinion, or the 'being a light unto oneself' to which Dan referred..

This post was last updated by Mina Martini (account deleted) Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #16
Thumb_rodin_de_denker Olive B Netherlands 238 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
a slightly different point of view

Mina Martini wrote:
Amazing how many words and speculations were provoked by the post and how the spirit in which it was written, and the fundamental quality of my initial question, felt lost in the replies.

Hi Mina,

Yes Mina, it is amazing to see what happens here.

But those speculations are answering your question about my words:”slightly different point of view”.

Do we know ourselves as limited separate self, or

Do we understand ourselves to be unlimited everpresent awareness?

If we know ourselves as limited separate selves, we keep searching for answers we keep asking why?

And yes I say searching as in an activity, as in something to achieve, because the fact that we know ourselves as separate selves IS already an activity, the resistance of the unlimited everpresent awareness that we realy are.

If we understand ourselves to be unlimited everpresent awareness, the questions and searching stops, because there is understanding.

And about 'great thinkers' :

For example Descartes, he said: “ I think therefore I am”

Is he pointing to the one reality?

No, he stopted to early with his investigation.

He clearly knows himself as a separate entity.

So, experience alone must be the test of reality.

Experience alone must be the test of reality.

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #17
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2003 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
Yes Mina, it is amazing to see what happens here.

But you are 'what happens here', no? We all are. I read your post about 'ever present awareness'. It does seem to depart from K's statement that 'you are the world'....the conflict, the brutality, violence, greed, fear, etc. Is there any way that you see any commonality with what K constantly tried to point out....that the observer is the observed? That the violence/conflict in the world is not separate from the violence/conflict in me?

Olive B wrote:
If we understand ourselves to be unlimited everpresent awareness, the questions and searching stops, because there is understanding.

Understanding or a religious belief? It's quite easy to brainwash oneself and to have religious experiences based upon one's belief/s.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #18
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
The issue was really about whether it is ever possible that beyond reflection, thought, fragmentation, there could still remain anything separate, any 'point of view'? -By the 'point of view' I mean, as Wim said, the center, the 'me', that looks, from and in thought always.

I heard you say that you feel like leaving the party Mina, but before you leave let me ask you: What tells to you the following statement from K with regard to your question quoted here? ...

THE DISSOLUTION OF THE ORDER OF THE STAR
Ommen, Holland, 1929


That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #19
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
Amazing how many words and speculations were provoked by the post


Olive B wrote:
But those speculations are answering your question about my words

Maybe none of you two have the energy ...
... but anyway i would like to know in which way these two assertions are related to one each other
Thanks!

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #20
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 740 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:
If we understand ourselves to be unlimited everpresent awareness, the questions and searching stops, because there is understanding.

Hi Olive

Wouldn't it be more accurate to rephrase your statement as: "I understand myself to be unlimited ever-present awareness and because I have this understanding, my questions and searching has stopped".

I think Tom's point about "religious experiences" is that we're all just a 'stone's throw' from delusion. That we'll latch onto anything that we think can help us out of this 'mess'. So I would say for myself that though I have a strong intellectual attraction to the idea of being "unlimited ever-present awareness", I do not "understand" myself to be that (though there are insights and intimations etc.) and therefore the "questions" and the "searching" continues.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #21
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
"I understand myself to be unlimited ever-present awareness

Why this gap between 'I' and 'unlimited ever-present awareness' in the form of understanding?

Dan McDermott wrote:
because I have this understanding, my questions and searching has stopped".

And with them, understanding too.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #22
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 740 posts in this forum Offline

No Juan the point I was making was her using "we" instead of 'I'. You'll have to ask her why she put in the "gap".

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #23
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2003 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I think Tom's point about "religious experiences" is that we're all just a 'stone's throw' from delusion. T

Actually K himself said something very similar....and he was including himself. But it's not just that... we may in fact have had some great 'experience' of being that formless, infinite, awarenes; but then we turn it into dead knowledge.... a new identity. Our questioning is over....along with our listening to one another.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #24
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 740 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
we may in fact have had some great 'experience' of being that formless, infinite, awareness;...

I think Olive as well as K. is pointing out, that we are in fact that. So from that 'point of view', everything else is an 'escape'. The questioning, the conclusions, the beliefs, the search,the desire to 'become' (the self, the ego) are all 'escapes' from being what I already am, and always have been, and couldn't not be, "naked, unadorned, awareness".

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 23 Jun 2017.

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #25
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 388 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
No Juan the point I was making was her using "we" instead of 'I'. You'll have to ask her why she put in the "gap".

Yes, although i used your words the question was put for everybody, included her ... but i wonder if there will be an answer after us having been labeled already as 'speculators' ... ;-)

I must leave now, i'll come back home late at night ... listen to the forum then.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #26
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 740 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
but i wonder if there will be an answer after us having been labeled already as 'speculators' ... ;-)

Not to mention 'escape' artists. :)

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #27
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2003 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I think Olive as well as K. is pointing out, that we are in fact that. So from that 'point of view', everything else is an 'escape'. The questioning, the conclusions, the beliefs, the search,the desire to 'become' (the self, the ego) are all 'escapes' from being what I already am, and always have been, and couldn't not be, "naked, unadorned, awareness".

Did K say that? If he did I wonder why Olive said she has a 'different point of view'. Does it make sense if I'm angry to say 'I am formless, infinite awareness'? In a moment of anger, I am that anger, no? That would be only a belief or idea to say 'I' am something else.

Let it Be

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #28
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 2003 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Not to mention 'escape' artists. :)

Escaping from conflict...'what is'.

Let it Be

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #29
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 740 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Does it make sense if I'm angry to say 'I am formless, infinite awareness'?

No. The idea as I understand it is that that is what we are in
"essence" (as well as every other living thing.) I can't 'know' it or 'grasp' it since I am it. But if you 'contemplate' yourself as 'being no-thing' say, then your attachments and your image of yourself as 'something' may make it clearer as to why we become angry, addicted, anxious etc. when things go 'wrong'. Things 'go wrong' because the brain/thought has created this myth of the 'me' and the 'mine'.
(Trying to make psychologically, something out of no-thing?)

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Fri, 23 Jun 2017 #30
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 554 posts in this forum Offline

THE DISSOLUTION OF THE ORDER OF THE STAR
Ommen, Holland, 1929

That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally.

And he shared his point of view with everyone absolutely and unconditionally
and not because he wanted to disturb or not to disturb others nor he owned it or kept it for himself.

So what's the drive one is going by.... is one afraid or challenging,
what's the force behind this activity ??
Is this from the center or for the whole, shouldn't that be the question ??

My mother had a wise saying:
"When we had little we could share, now we have so much we cannot."

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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