Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

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Mon, 19 Jun 2017 #1
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

As moderator I have deleted the post you, Link, made under the topic title "This is going to happen to me within 2 to 3 years. I followed four of the 20 links that you gave, and they all show the same video clip, an incredibly violent one of a man being beaten to death in graphic detail. This is what passes for entertainment these days, there available for even children to watch.

If you can demonstrate that this video contributes to self learning, or the understanding of Krishnamurti's work, I will consider reinstating it - but I doubt it, very much.

And actually Link, you do not know the manner or time of your death, no one does. And is it not better to look at the manner of our living, right now?

Several times on the forum you have asked for "help". What do you consider could be the nature of such help?

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #2
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, thats OK... I'm sorry about that Clive... I expected you to delete that.. And thank you for doing so...

Clive Elwell wrote:
And actually Link, you do not know the manner or time of your death, no one does. And is it not better to look at the manner of our living, right now?

HAHA, yes i do agree.. But what if you had a mob after you?? Well, then you had better be strict about K's teaching... K said that when one understands truly the nature of insecurity then one is secure... But if you were given a situation without much room (left or right) then it may be a different ordeal..

I did leave my real info on my profile, and whats wrong with that? if you havent done anything wrong then why be guilty about such things?

I do ultimately feel that i would be OK if i didnt attack back, but without understanding fully the nature of thought and the situation that would only equate to mere control, which is meaningless.

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #3
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
K said that when one understands truly the nature of insecurity then one is secure... But if you were given a situation without much room (left or right) then it may be a different ordeal.

Does a true understanding of the nature of insecurity, really need room for it to happen? ... Does not such room/space imply the presence of a 'me' fantasizing about such so-called "nature of insecurity"? ... Is there any actual room between the ever present insecurity and the understanding of it or that of its nature?

I had a friend (a buddhist woman) that after a 10 years meditating on impermanence thinking that she had a true understanding of the nature of insecurity, was totally fearful when her doctor said her: "that pain is because there's a cancer".

So, does that "true understanding of the nature of insecurity" needs time or it is seen instantly? ... Do we need any preparation in the form of "room" (which implies time) for us to eventually have a true and instantaneous understanding of the nature of insecurity (and therefore be psychologically secure despite any situation)? ... And if it is so, why that need for us of room/time to look at that which is ever present in our lives?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #4
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
K said that when one understands truly the nature of insecurity then one is secure... But if you were given a situation without much room (left or right) then it may be a different ordeal.

Does the true understanding of the nature of insecurity, really need room for it to happen? ... Does not such room/space imply the presence of a 'me' fantasizing about such so-called "nature of insecurity"? ... Is there any actual room between the ever present insecurity and the understanding of it or that of its nature?

I had a friend (a buddhist woman) that after a 10 years meditating on impermanence thinking that she had a true understanding of the nature of insecurity, was totally fearful when her doctor said her: "that pain you have is because there's a cancer".

So, does that "understanding truly the nature of insecurity" needs time or it is understood instantly? ... Do we need any preparation in the form of "room" (which implies time) for us to eventually have a true and instantaneous understanding of the nature of insecurity (and therefore be psychologically secure despite any situation)? ... And if it is so, why that need for us of such room/time to look at that which is ever present in our lives?

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Wed, 21 Jun 2017.

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #5
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 366 posts in this forum Offline

Juan,

What is the nature of insecurity? What is security?

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #6
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
What is the nature of insecurity?

Security

Huguette . wrote:
What is security?

Absolute insecurity

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #7
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 366 posts in this forum Offline

That is what you meant by "understanding of the nature of insecurity (and therefore be psychologically secure despite any situation)"? Is this what you would say to a drowning man?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 21 Jun 2017.

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #8
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Is this what you would say to a drowning man?

Do you actually think a drowning man has any need for words or he only needs a helping hand? ...

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #9
Thumb_de4 Dan McDermott United States 725 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
So, does that "understanding truly the nature of insecurity" needs time or it is understood instantly? ... Do we need any preparation in the form of "room" (which implies time) for us to eventually have a true and instantaneous understanding of the nature of insecurity (and therefore be psychologically secure despite any situation)? ... And if it is so, why that need for us of such room/time to look at that which is ever present in our lives?

You bring up for me Juan this whole question of 'security'. The body cannot be made 'secure', no matter how well it takes care of itself. It can always become ill and some part of it can fail. Security for the psychological 'self' or 'me' is a 'lost cause' because although 'I' have continuity, 'I' have no 'substance'. 'I' am made up from the past, of memories, of experiences, etc. 'I' am in fact an 'image' of an 'individual'. It is the image that craves this security, immortality, a state of happiness, the ability to conquer fear and to become greater and greater with knowledge, money, power, 'understanding', 'goodness', 'compassion','love'.'religion', etc. Physical security is all that is possible for us, the desire for psychological security can only create conflict, misery, sorrow because it is the craving to change the fact of what is taking place to something that is not. It is an escaping from reality to fantasy. It is the creation of a false 'future'/ time we can run to. It is based on the fear of death, isn't it? The fear of our disappearance?

Is the idea of 'being as nothing' (not-a-thing) yet another escape or does it make more sense that that , 'nothing', awareness, alertness, etc. is what we really in essence are? Doesn't that join us to all of mankind and all of nature rather than this 'conditioned' notion that what we are are these frightened, separate, entities looking for psychological security and solace and dying without ever finding it? Strangers in a strange land?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Wed, 21 Jun 2017.

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #10
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
That is what you meant by "understanding of the nature of insecurity (and therefore be psychologically secure despite any situation)"?

Why people always equates "living in the insecurity" to "do nothing by accepting any situation"? ...

A drowning man that is psychologically secure having truly understood the nature of insecurity will try to survive the same as you and me that have not truly understood the nature of insecurity ... the only difference is that the same situation will be lived differently.

Do the following words of K imply passivity, abandonment?

"I need food and clothes and shelter, and if somebody gives me, it's all right,
if somebody doesn't, I live where I am."

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #11
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Strangers in a strange land?

Yes ... or as The Moody Blues sung in 1972:

LOST IN A LOST WORLD

I woke today, I was crying
Lost in a lost world
So many people are dying
Lost in a lost world
Some of them are living an illusion
Bounded by the darkness of their minds
In their eyes it's nation, against nation, against nation
With racial pride
Sounds...
Thinking only of themselves
They shun the light
(shun the light)
They think they're right
(think they're right)
Living in their empty shells

Oh, can you see their bodies thrashing
(so many people, so many people)
Crashing down around their feet
Angry people in the street
Telling them they've had their fill
Of politics, people who kill

Grow... the seed of evolution
(so many people, so many people)
Revolution everyone
It's just another form of gun
To do again what they have done
Let all our brothers come and get some
(so many people, so many people)

Everywhere you go you see them searching
Everywhere you turn you feel the pain
Everyone is looking for the answers
Well look again, come on my friend
Love will find us in the end
Come on my friend
(on my friend)
We've got to bend
(got to bend)
Down on our knees and say a prayer

Oh, can you see the world is pining
(so many people, so many people)
Pining for someone who really cares enough to share his love
With all of us so we can be
An ever loving family
Have we forgotten who loves who
(so many people, so many people)
Children from a family tree
That's longer than a centipede
Started long ago when you and I
Where only love....
(so many people, so many people)

I woke today, I was crying
Lost in a lost world
So many people are dying
Lost in a lost world
So many people, so many people
People lost in a lost world
So many people, so many people
People lost in a lost world

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #12
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 366 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
That is what you meant by "understanding of the nature of insecurity (and therefore be psychologically secure despite any situation)"?

Juan E wrote:
Why people always equates "living in the insecurity" to "do nothing by accepting any situation"? ...

Where did I equate anything with anything? Where did I say "accept the situation"?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 21 Jun 2017.

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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 #13
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Where did I equate anything with anything? Where did I say "accept the situation"?

No, it simply was implicit in the question you put to me: "Is this what you would say to a drowning man?" (or i felt it was, my apologizes if it was not so ... Anyway i still keep my question)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Wed, 21 Jun 2017.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #14
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
But what if you had a mob after you??

Did you ever read Carlos Casterneda's "A seperate reality, the teachings of a Yaqui indian"? The book (s) concerned Don Juan, a powerful and insightful person with magical powers. Once Carlos said to him, "But you magic can't save you from everything. Imagine you were walking along a road, and around the curve an assasin was waiting for you with a high powered rifle - what could you do then?

Don Juan replied "I wouldn't be walking along that road"

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #15
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
But if you were given a situation without much room (left or right) then it may be a different ordeal..

Again, that "if". Are not the challenges that are actually facing us enough to meet, without inventing future ones? But you are not alone in this, Link, I have been watching in myself how the mind is always inventing imaginary situations, and trying to decide how to meet them. Seems crazy.

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Thu, 22 Jun 2017 #16
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 333 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Don Juan replied "I wouldn't be walking along that road"

If i may ask ... what has this to do with the question Link put to "you" keeping in mind that none of us is neither Carlos Castaneda, nor Don Juan? ... Does it mean that we should compare to Don Juan if we had a mob after us? ... I'm sorry, but i don't get why you quote Don Juan here regarding to Link's question :-? ... If you could explain what you exactly mean.

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Sat, 24 Jun 2017 #17
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:

Clive Elwell wrote:

Don Juan replied "I wouldn't be walking along that road"

If i may ask ... what has this to do with the question Link put to "you" keeping in mind that none of us is neither Carlos Castaneda, nor Don Juan? ... Does it mean that we should compare to Don Juan if we had a mob after us? ... I'm sorry, but i don't get why you quote Don Juan here regarding to Link's question :-? ... If you could explain what you exactly mean.

Hi Juan

I realise that that my post may be somewhat incomprehensible, because it referred to the post by Link that I deleted.

Link seemed to suggest that he 'knew his fate', knew the manner of his death. I was challenging this, challenging the whole idea that we can know our personal futures.

But more that this, I am asking if we are just passive victims of circumstances, or there is a certain amount of intelligence we can use when dealing with the world. For example, I notice that a lot of the violent crimes that happen in the city where I live happen in the early hours when people are going home, perhaps drunk or under the influence of drugs. So does it not make sense not to be in the city centre at those times?

Interestingly, in "The Ending of Tine" (I could not say where exactly) K suggests that his work is bringing change to society, but in a subtle way, a way that is calculated not to antagonise and so bring about resistance.

All this brought to mind that snippet of the book about Don Juan, who, it seemed to me, had many wise things to say about living in this world.

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Sat, 24 Jun 2017 #18
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3644 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
.. Does it mean that we should compare to Don Juan if we had a mob after us? .

I don't think intelligent action ever stems from comparison. As K said, every challenge is new. As Clive said, :-). every challenge is unique to a particular place, time, circumstance, so that action "lifted" from another place, other circumstances, can never be appropriate to the moment

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