Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Dear idiot ? RE: Is the forum the kind of dialogue K encouraged? - in the main forum


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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #1
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Dear idiot ? RE: Is the forum the kind of dialogue K encouraged? - in the main forum

There is nothing of meaning that goes on here. It is the same reason why Krishnamurti said he didnt get through to anyone. It is the same reason why Krishnamurti constantly contradicted those he was in dialogue with. They dont really want to understand. What we have here is a strange group of people that apparently are so well off that they like to play intellectual games. The social environment here is one of condemnation of anything that goes against this pre-school tier farce.

Our society has changed in a very strange manner since Krishnamurti died. It is an absolute atrocity what is going on. One cannot function in any way which is genuinely educated without someone coming along and insisting that one must be punished. At that point to try to understand what k meant is futile. Alot of what happens here is that. When one is not punished they are ignored and shunned until they do not have what is necessary to survive. Its incredible that this is happening merely 30 years after k died and he never spoke of it.

For 2 people to truly communicate they must be discontent. They must be able to abandon their social ornamentation. Yet no one does this. When one mentions the nature of the political travesty that is going on it is too disturbing for those who do not wish to acknowledge the truth. These people are the ones with power and what disturbs them is basically obliterated. It is alot like communism. Those who do not wish to acknowledge such a thing are a menace to truth.

I find it incredible that one can be serious about krishnamurtis teaching, have nothing, want nothing, and be obliterated so easily. No one will even put a second thought into it. We are living in some bad times, my friend. What is going on here has the implications to last for many many years or decades.

The most K spoke of was being killed or going to prison for what one saw to be the truth (I.E. non-violence, non-killing), but what we have here is something far more extreme and tyrannical. No one acknowledge this because they are content, they are not free of the society or the me.

If you had love and were doing something that you loved a very angry person would come along and break your ability to survive. These people are not human, they dont care. It is totally beyond ones control. The motor behind this inclination in the society is more severe than communism, more severe than Nazi Germany. These people are very ruthless and meticulous about this. It would happen almost instantly and when it did your family would disown you and you would be left to nothing but a life of false humiliation, threats etc. You have no protection, the law is completely non-functional. These people will follow you everywhere just to sadistically harm you in any way. You will have less rights and less ability to function than a convicted child molester. We dont acknowledge any of this, yet it is the truth. To see this is necessary for alertness and expanded awareness. We arent even allowed to talk about this. The thought police are very real. One is totally forced into a demonized spot to legitimize the narrative of current politics and society.

I have put 20 years of my life into trying to understand this and i was almost instantly destroyed. I got a fair ways, but i was walking on egg shells. The minute i opened my mouth, i was gone. It is ridiculous and oppressive to have to live your life without speech in a world where tyrants will extort from you if they can. You dont just get along with someone who doesnt understand themselves even if you do understand them. If that were the case K would have instantly connected to many people and he wouldnt have said that he got through to no one.

When one is free of the society they are alone and they are not dependent upon others but at this point you will be living in an oppression comparable to communist USSR and it is very unlikely it would work out. You will suffer greatly from the unnatural way of life that you are forced into and you will need release. You cannot functional sanely and healthily like this and from that point you are demonized permanently. It is beyond comprehension how people live their daily lives without speaking about this.

If these people dont like what you are saying they will take measures which disconnect you from communication yet these things also are not made public. There are so many of these things now. They are used just as a weapon. I have been through so many of them just because these people dont like what im saying. It is evil and they are no more innocent than the Nazis. A person who can accept this is not even human.

It is ridiculous to have to navigate through this tyranny with so much hatred directed at me. The only reason i am not allowed to send messages or post in the main forum is because these people dont like what i have to say. Its their board although it is branded with somebody elses doings. Somebody that they dont agree with. I hate to be obnoxious but i am not allowed to do anything else and be concerned with K's teachings or the truth. I have been torn to shreds because of circumstances like this and i do not forgive these "people".

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #2
Thumb_picture0122 Daniel Paul. Ireland 117 posts in this forum Offline

Hello

you say : For 2 people to truly communicate they must be discontent.

It happens that I deeply agree with that, so say my own experience as well as the one of some I met, or directly or through any media..this is not based on k's words...yet he said a lot about this ..the flame of discontntment is still one of my favorite part of k..

Link Smickman wrote:
When one is free of the society they are alone and they are not dependent upon others but at this point you will be living in an oppression comparable to communist USSR

Well in my view, this is the past, it did not work out...but it is far more interesting to be aware about today....and the main entity at war all over the planet today is NATO....property of the us...800 military bases all over the planet..check a map of that, you'll be impressed in some ways..

And today according to many different political and economical observers, this is my view too, based on years of observations and findings the EU led by non elected people is exactly following the same USSR path, becoming more and more totalitarian.....when today the Russian federation, the necessary imaginary enemy of the western world for profit and madness, has all resources a country needs ...this explains more than ten books on the topic..

etc I do not wish to say more..as this is dedicated to k...but I found necessary to give anther view here..

If one trust anyone of the main stream media one should know who are the owners , then you'll get more of it..

not an advice at all just a view...

Last thing, I usually like anyone have a view about a different outer world , this is necessary yet could be totally illusory in the sense that we are only possibly dealing in facts with effects of effects etc not with root causes.., yet my own discontentment is in fact as I see it from time to time more and more due to my own "relationship" with..." myself...the inner is the first trouble..If I may put it that way..

cheerio.

Dan ...........

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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 #3
Thumb_img_20150716_212047-1-1 richard viillar France 222 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul. wrote:
a view about a different outer world , this is necessary yet could be totally illusory...

Yes...

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Tue, 14 Mar 2017 #4
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3478 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
There is nothing of meaning that goes on here.

Hi Link

I wonder who are the idiots?

You first statement, that there is nothing of meaning that goes on here, is open to question. I would not draw such a conclusion as you have. I would not make assumptions about what is going on for individuals. I would not assume that people do not want to understand. And I would also say that it is the reponsibility of ourselves to find true meaning in life; no others can do it for us. But let us start by looking at the general picture you have drawn of the USA, and really of the whole world.

It is fundamentally as you say. We have reached a terrible state of affairs. Things are diabolical, things are happening that are almost beyond belief. Conflict is rampant, even between the people and the governments that have have apparently elected. People are behaving as animals – actually much worse than animals, as animals only do what comes naturally, and they live in a kind of harmony.

Indeed as you say, Link, society has changed enormously since K's death. So much more authoritarian. As K said, in times of great uncertainty, people tend to return to the traditions of the past, seeking security in some image of stability. And they are vulnerable to the outrageous claims of crazy politicians who “promise” to bring order to society.

I myself have written at some length about the many crises the world is facing, including here on the forum. And I agree one does not get much traction. Out in the wide world, I have seen repeatedly that people just don't want to listen, don't want to look at what is happening. There is indeed a deep state of denial in this, and implied by people's lifestyles – which are carried on as if the world will last forever.

And I wonder about the denial that must be in myself.

I do not have much time to write at the moment. But feeling there is little point in focusing on NATO, the UN, governments, Mr Trump, and all the dreadful agents of destruction. Sure these are not the cause – and this to me is the fundamental issue – not the cause of the world crisis? Are they not merely manifestations of it?

So what is the cause, what is the reason we are where we are today, on the eve of destruction? Are there many causes, or is there only one fundamental cause? To me it seems clear that the cause is the state of human consciousness, a consciousness which is centred on the me, with its greed, its ambition for power, its personal desires, its fears, and so on. Is that not the cause of all human corruption? Is that not the root of all conflict and violence?

And if that is the case, what is the right response to all the mess?

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #5
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Clive,
The reason why i said the word idiot ? is because there was a topic on the main forum started by a very serious person with that username. I mean no disrespect for anyone whatsoever. I cant post on the main forum because the mod is on vacation or something. How one reacts to these things is of importance and most people would react in the same manner. Its normal.

I agree with everything you said except the first paragraph about what goes on here on the forum or in the world at large because its the same fundamental thing. Lets look at this together without condemnation. Please investigate without condemnation. For total communication or harmony between people there must be freedom from hurt, the past, habit, and any kind of pattern. Krishnamurti has written about this alot. Most people are actually headed in the opposite direction. They dont want to be disturbed in that "direction". They usually dont want to hear anything other than what they find favorable. They translate what is said and are hurt or offended when what is said does not line up with that. When they are discontent in that manner they are looking for some kind of answer but the answer is usually patchwork to the already established pattern. This whole apparatus of thought does not want to be hurt. Alot of this is sustained because the world is filled with condemnation and hatred.. scorn. At the same time to have love means to be free of the society, as K said. That is not possible when one is understanding another in the way they suggest or the way society suggests. All hurt people do this, especially when they have a type of security. Something that they are afraid of losing. Honesty is involved, also seriousness, also attachment, security, fear. Most people are not honest and it appears at this point that one is simply not allowed to question this system. The manner that the USA is modified from communism has changed so that a person with love cannot survive. You wont be killed outright but you will have a very bad time.. even worse than being killed. You will likely be married to the prison system tortured by other inmates or totally on the lam living off of nature, which is insanely impractical at this point.The society is the collection of dishonest people who are angry, divided, who do not have love, who do not want to be disturbed because they are attached. These people are brainwashed and if one disagrees with the society they are destroyed just as in strict communism. This did not happen in the past. Please question if you dont find this to be the truth, but to me it is clear. One cannot have love, which is understanding of everyone at the same time, in the same amount while agreeing with someone who does not have love. That is why K never got through to anyone. Most people are not even aware of how this works within themselves. They feel that they have been wronged and what they are doing, as violent and divisive as it is, is right and moral. Thats why Krishnamurti said that the hurt mind is not an innocent mind. Now when one is in that spot they tend to react negatively to this as if it was dreadful. None of that is true and a person can get hung up on that misunderstanding for lifetimes. Krishnamurti made very clear that one who has love or is perceiving truth is a very happy person, full of constant enjoyment and inward richness. There is no part of it which is dreadful. If the animal did not understand itself and merely did what it wanted, there would be endless conflict. Not just with others, but also with appetite. The Christians came along and said no pleasure. They said that morality is dreadful, that one must be punished and not enjoy. K made very clear that this is false. That does not mean that mindless pleasure is truth. What is the integral factor is the understanding of thought. To learn about thought one must be free of self righteousness or defense. The me which is acting from the past. Everyone is acting from the past. Everything they do is divisive. We have built a society which is a superficial game. In this game people phonily agree with each other to avoid problems. This is not real communication, even if a person finds it favorable. It is a movement of isolation and one cannot be whole without being totally free of this. Disturbance and upheaval is involved.

Im not a Trump supporter by the way. Im not political in that manner. Most normal people are tyrants. The Trump supporters are just as tyranny as the democrats. There is no way to say that one is less violent or more noble without being biased. There is no one is if free of any system or pattern which does this. Krishnamurti would not have been sided in any way related to politics. You cant understand others or be whole in that manner although these people constantly claim this in righteousness. It is totally insane. We have no functional civilization. Everything is governed by herd mentality. This is not going away.

About your last set of questions, what causes this? Krishnamurti has written in depth about this. It starts with thought, which is the me, pleasure. It is the understanding of the root cause of hurt and violence. Its hard to put it into one sentence or paragraph but it is a very basic factor. We come from the animal world, which is one of mere instincts and desires. One must free oneself from this world by understanding the workings of the mind. When one does this they are not vested in any system of government or any pattern of thought. This is hard to understand. Many people wind up thinking that one must be dreadful or in a prison as Christianity implied. But K made it clear that is not the case. K said that to try to become puritanical or moral was immoral and to cut off desire was impossible, which is also in contradiction to the Buddhists and Zen practitioners etc. These people merely control thought when it is necessary to understand it. It is only possible to understand thought with great upheaval. One must be free of respectability and the dos and donts of society. One must be free of society completely which is to be free of the me, not by trying but by actually understanding first hand. One must be filled with enjoyment, richness and happiness or else it is not possible to live correctly which is done by understanding thought, the me and also pleasure and pattern.. the past. One must understand themselves fully, not as any kind of hobby, but fully. They must understand themselves completely. This misunderstanding of pleasure and enjoyment which is common in the human race for thousands of years now must be understood. It is involved in the understanding of thought.To understand thought is not done by being respectable, by following the traditional dos and donts or being adjusted to the society like a regular person. The mind falls asleep in this. It doesnt want punishment. To be free of the sequence of punishment and reward requires that one understand thought very very deeply, not just try to become moral or puritanical or to control oneself. Control in this manner has no meaning.

Daniel Paul. wrote:
Last thing, I usually like anyone have a view about a different outer world , this is necessary yet could be totally illusory in the sense that we are only possibly dealing in facts with effects of effects etc not with root causes..,

Yes, thats right. Its a symptom as Krishnamurti said. To be free of the society means to understand this very deeply. It means to be free of any system such as capitalism or communism yet these people are the ones who unyieldingly insist that one must be adherent to this system. When one understands themselves and therefore the society and others and is free of all those things it triggers these people very deeply and they get very violent. They wont even let me communicate with them, they simply dont want any of that way of life. These people are above the law when you are in this position. They stalk me, threaten my life, threaten my family, harass me ruthlessly, assault me, blame me for things that i havent done. If i was to call the cops i would be the one going to jail. Here on this forum people do nothing but try to coerce one to this way of life as if the society is correct, as if it isnt just as sick as it was in the past, as if education is not involved.

I can barely even be around people without problems. When i do i have to keep my mouth shut or else i become part of some paradox, some game where i am beaten into submission or incriminated. I literally have to kill myself to avoid being tortured in prison because of no reason other than this. These people claim that i disrespect them just from being around them even though i was free of the society and had total compassion for them. It is because they do not want the already established pattern questioned. I have less rights than a stray animal and it is utter tyranny.

People will say that i should be a man and fight back yet to do that would be to be locked into a never ending pattern and feud and to be constantly occupied with that. That would mean that you understanding is limited to that pattern and way of life. It isnt that pattern which produces understanding and happiness yet feuding, strife, hatred, misery and contradiction. I can see that clearly right from the beginning. There is no 2 ways about it. There is no way to agree with them and have love, because they do not have love. They consider it heresy to even have the attitude of questioning them. Their heads are asleep and they dont want to be questioned, whenever they are confronted with the truth they scramble to justify their sleep and their past in whatever absurd manner necessary.

They will also say that we need to pay reparations to minorities. As Krishnamurti said those people will never be satisfied like that (see quote below). This just goes on endlessly and there is no progress made whatsoever. Every kind of initiative, culture, goodness or happiness is being totally destroyed by this. There is nothing good which can come from any of this.

Then there are the people who have a very strong sexual kink or appetite that are heavily vested in this. There pleasure is no less destructive than the pleasure in the past.

I just find this absolutely incredible and overwhelming that this monstrous tyranny exists in so-called free countries merely 30 years after Krishnamurti died and he never implied that he had any clue that it was coming. He just spoke as if civilization would go on relatively stable until computers began to take over thought, yet where we are right now does not reflect what he said. Its almost as if we are living in an alternate timeline. I literally have to throw myself in front of a train to avoid being tortured by this. I have people who stalk me that i used to work with merely because my mind was on a different plane. I have tried to explain this to them but they dont care. Most dont even let me contact them. If i did try i would be charged with harassment and screwed for life. Even if i wasnt charged i would be screwed for life.

These people say yes, please kill yourself. We hate you. We hate Autists, we hate plebians. This is alot like the communists speaking down about bourgeoisie. These people act as if they have love and are morally superior. What an atrocity. How could K have not seen this coming? How can people accept this this early?

I cant go anywhere to get help and even if i did i would be labeled as a snitch and a traitor and tortured in prison. I have to kill myself. My family doesnt even care even though they are fully aware of everything ive posted in this thread.

I shouldnt be treated like this. How do we call this a civilization, it is totally broken. How can one live in this and not care? How is that even possible? Are you a cyborg?

Questioner: Will the rich ever be prepared to give up much of what they have for the sake of the poor?

Krishnamurti: We are not talking about what the rich should give up for the sake of the poor. Whatever they give up, it will still not satisfy the poor - but that is not the problem. You who are well-to-do, and who therefore have the opportunity to cultivate intelligence, can you not through revolt create a new society? it depends on you, not on anybody else; it depends on each one of us, not on the rich or the poor, or on the communists. You see, most of us have not this spirit of revolt this urge to break through, to find out; and it is this spirit that is important.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #6
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 684 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
Questioner: Will the rich ever be prepared to give up much of what they have for the sake of the poor?
Krishnamurti: We are not talking about what the rich should give up for the sake of the poor. Whatever they give up, it will still not satisfy the poor - but that is not the problem. You who are well-to-do, and who therefore have the opportunity to cultivate intelligence, can you not through revolt create a new society? it depends on you, not on anybody else; it depends on each one of us, not on the rich or the poor, or on the communists. You see, most of us have not this spirit of revolt this urge to break through, to find out; and it is this spirit that is important.

The "spirit of revolt" is not anger, it is not self-pity. These can not "find out".

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #7
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The "spirit of revolt" is not anger, it is not self-pity. These can not "find out".

I do agree with that. Thats what most people do. The world is filled with nothing but those things, thats why it remains the same. Truth cannot exist where there is nothing but punishment and coercion and that is all that our society is currently about.

This post was last updated by Link Smickman Fri, 17 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #8
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

If i go to work and people that are searching for an answer constantly cause problems with me because i dont understand them in the way the society suggests (which is false) some kind of action is necessary. If i fight with them i loose. If i "man-up" i am then bound to a life of strife and misery in which understanding or freedom cannot exist. If i do nothing their hatred festers until they are right in my face swinging at me desiring to torture me in the worst manner they can. And they do this, they are allowed. This understanding that the society suggests is obviously false. I would literally need to first educate people to function. For me to do that the people would need to listen. They would have to be serious and have the time and energy. Krishnamurti didnt do this. He didnt get through to anyone. These answers that they are searching for are impossible to answer if one has love because to have love is not that type of answer, it is not the answer that they are searching for. Some kind of communication is necessary first and when i attempt this people just walk away. They dont read what i write even if it is short. They sometimes say they know and they just hate me and want me dead. They hate me because i questioned them. When i try to talk to them they say that i am bothering them. This is totally insane. One may think there is some kind of circumstance or reason that i am hiding but that is not the case. Infact when this happened i was totally alert and living in the manner k spoke about. Totally. When i am in these situations i realize completely that i cannot communicate with these people because of their own doings which are out of my control. There would first need to be some kind of order in the environment.

These people constantly stalk me, follow me and threaten my life all because i questioned them. This isnt a joke, i am not paranoid, i dont have a mental illness. I have been beat up numerous times, i have had people spread the nastiest rumours about me. I have been arrested on totally fraudulent charges just because i was in public with a different mindset.

I NEED HELP. WHAT CAN I DO??? What do you suggest i do? Is there some agency i can report this to?? These people want me dead and their intent is to limit my function until i am in prison where i can be tortured. The police department is in on this. If i seek help i am a snitch.

THIS IS NOT A JOKE. Does this happen to anyone else? Clive, what do you think about this? I used to work with this Hispanic girl that was very angry at me because i wasnt adjusted to these false politics even though i was being very good and meager. This person was totally absurd. They claimed i ruined their life because apparently im not allowed to be serious and this interferes with their politics. It reminds me of what someone wrote the other day on a different website. That bullying is necessary because people who are wrong need to be corrected. They said that those who are like me, who are wrong are a liability. This implies, does it not, a form of total and complete totalitarianism. Tyranny. If it is clearly known that i am serious about life in the manner K was (and it always was) then i should have that noted. All these people know about this, they dont care.

This has happened many times, sometimes ive tried to contact the person who is doing this after ive been fired for absurdity and they wont be honest or they wont let me contact them. They also basically do this when it is happening as if it were some type of game. I realize clearly that it is utterly out of my control.

Do you all think that a person who was actually innocent needs to be tortured because of the parts of your minds that you dont understand, the parts which are strife? That means that you would do that to Krishnamurti if it wasnt for this idol worship or false imagery involved which makes you a second hand person with second hand understanding.

Should i contact the FBI?? I probably would just be leading myself into the lions den. None of these people like "snitches", which means i have no right to protect myself from unlawful action upon my person or property. How can people accept this god forsaken society?? This is a crisis. Lets talk about this so we start a new society. Do you want to do that? I do. Lets do that.

What should i do? Look i am sincerely in a crisis and i need help. Where do i go for help? I do understand if other people are in the same crisis. So lets talk about this and change it. Lets start a new society as k spoke of.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #9
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The "spirit of revolt" is not anger, it is not self-pity. These can not "find out".

Sir, let me try to understand what you are suggesting a bit better. Please correct me if i am wrong. The world is filled with those things and nothing but that. Are you trying to imply that the social order which suggests a type of understanding of people is truth? Is the type of understanding which political correctness heavily tries to force down ones throat truth? It is obviously false. Forgive me if that isnt what you meant but we are living in a time period where that is what most people would mean and this is also a very heated topic.

If that is indeed what you meant i would heavily agree with you if not for the fact that i was clearly aware that i was doing nothing but functioning in the manner that k spoke of. I realize that there is no certification and you cannot know whether that was the case but i was clearly aware of it. That is my word. I have put many tens of thousands of hours of thought into situations like this and that question of whether i was not truthful or whether there is some other circumstance or reasoning involved is not even a question. If there is no way to prove false incrimination to be wrong then how is anything to happen other than this mindless cycle of thought, blame and self-righteousness. There must be something else which happens and it cannot by trying to prove true what is already false.

This post was last updated by Link Smickman Fri, 17 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #10
Thumb_2474 Dan McDermott United States 684 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
Sir, let me try to understand what you are suggesting a bit better. Please correct me if i am wrong. The world is filled with those things and nothing but that. Are you trying to imply that the social order which suggests a type of understanding of people is truth? Is the type of understanding which political correctness heavily tries to force down ones throat truth? It is obviously false. Forgive me if that isnt what you meant but we are living in a time period where that is what most people would mean and this is also a very heated topic.

Sir, you are agitated, but you are here on this beautiful planet with the rest of us. We obviously are not as sensitive as you and can put up with what we have been born into...so I would think that you need to see that what you see here, is a revelation, and look at it completely differently, not as a curse but as truth.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Fri, 17 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #11
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Sir, you are agitated, but you are here on this beautiful planet with the rest of us. We obviously are not as sensitive as you and can put up with what we have been born into...so I would think that you need to see that what you see here, is a revelation, and look at it completely differently, not as a curse but as truth.

To me most people are in a state which prevents communication. They are filled with their own ideas, wants, security and they defend this. They are hurt just like anyone and they have their own ways of getting out of that and justifying it. They assume they already know how or know what to do and they defend this. Can communication exist if there is not some kind of compromise to this? Can it exist where the common, normal, traditional activity occurs? The common activity may sound pleasant if one is romantic about it but that romanticism or whatever you would like to call it may have no meaning if people are merely isolating themselves without realizing it. Lets go into this. I dont know any better than you do but im trying to be totally honest. We must do this together.

If we were living in a world where one must buy into the social normalities and romanticism to function then they would need to abandon all these principles of what is right or wrong, truth or false to function. Are the problems humans face resolved by simply looking at things differently or seeing something as a revelation? This has probably been tried a million ways, its one of the most common activities of man.

There must be upheaval involved in communication. True communication that is. Is this not the truth? Go into it. Explore it. It seems clear to me that if i was not completely honest that there must be conflict. This would even happen if another person was truly educated. And what is wrong with this conflict? We name it, we say its bad. It seems clear that if one did have love they would be free of this condemnation, this scorn and they would not have that effect on others, yet there is more necessary to communicate. If someone did not want to live by truth and i was free of this condemnation they still would not listen or communicate. Most people who are discontent are seeking answers that are impossible to resolve. That is why there is never that kind of resolution from Krishnamurti. Love is in the first step yet these answers one is seeking put that person further than the first step, and then they want to find out. You see? If you investigate it you will find out that it is impossible to answer problems without being free of the past or of attachment or accumulation.

Is this forum really any different than any other kind of group or school? There are many kinds of schools of thought. There are Zen schools, martial arts schools, dance schools. All of these things condition ones mind to be separate, to be special in some way. Is this forum fundamentally different from any of those groups? Is there not alot of investment in this specialty and ones attachment to it? If someone wants to prove someone wrong by acting from the past and assuming that is truth then how are they to find out? How are they to do anything other than reinforce their current habits and patterns?

You may believe that i am agitated or that i am wrong for disagreeing with what is common but i insist that i was totally serious during these times where unreasonable tyranny damaged my life. Its not that im trying to say that these things are important to me as someone does when they are attached but rather the fact that if what im saying is indeed true then says something enormous about the world. And this happened alot, many many times. I was clear that what im saying is the truth i was not just holding onto something, i was as pliable as it gets questioning myself from every angle. It wouldnt be intelligence just to go on cooperating with that.

To me, we are now living in a world where it appears one must be pacified to function. It is very difficult to be pacified without living in the normal way which society says is correct and without having an enormous investment in ones accomplishments, self-claimed understandings, or self-claimed "enlightenment". If there wasnt an enormous investment in those things one would not be able to function. Their brain would start breaking down rapidly. Even if one was living in romanticism and had humility that wouldnt be enough. You would start becoming discontent and reacting contradictory without realizing it. How much a person is aware of all this is what is the question.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #12
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3478 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
Lets look at this together without condemnation.

Clive: Hi Link
I have interspersed my comments among your words, in italics like this. This is just a response to your post #5

The reason why i said the word idiot ? is because there was a topic on the main forum started by a very serious person with that username. I mean no disrespect for anyone whatsoever. I cant post on the main forum because the mod is on vacation or something. How one reacts to these things is of importance and most people would react in the same manner. Its normal.

Clive: I do not follow discussions on the main forum, and so was curious. You are welcome to post here, Link.

I agree with everything you said except the first paragraph about what goes on here on the forum or in the world at large because its the same fundamental thing. Lets look at this together without condemnation. Please investigate without condemnation. For total communication or harmony between people there must be freedom from hurt, the past, habit, and any kind of pattern. Krishnamurti has written about this alot. Most people are actually headed in the opposite direction. They dont want to be disturbed in that "direction". They usually dont want to hear anything other than what they find favorable. They translate what is said and are hurt or offended when what is said does not line up with that. When they are discontent in that manner they are looking for some kind of answer but the answer is usually patchwork to the already established pattern. This whole apparatus of thought does not want to be hurt. Alot of this is sustained because the world is filled with condemnation and hatred.. scorn. At the same time to have love means to be free of the society, as K said. That is not possible when one is understanding another in the way they suggest or the way society suggests. All hurt people do this, especially when they have a type of security. Something that they are afraid of losing. Honesty is involved, also seriousness, also attachment, security, fear.

Clive: Yes, I am sure what you say is so – at least as a generalisation.

Most people are not honest and it appears at this point that one is simply not allowed to question this system.

Clive: You can question what you like here, Link. But perhaps best to steer away from political ideologies and personalities.

The manner that the USA is modified from communism has changed so that a person with love cannot survive.

I don't know. Just because you love doesn't mean that you behave foolishly, or expose yourself unnecessarily. Intelligence can act, and even be circumspect. I remember K saying: “Just because you don't have an ego doesn't mean that you let yourself be treated as a doormat”

You wont be killed outright but you will have a very bad time.. even worse than being killed. You will likely be married to the prison system tortured by other inmates or totally on the lam living off of nature, which is insanely impractical at this point.The society is the collection of dishonest people who are angry, divided, who do not have love, who do not want to be disturbed because they are attached. These people are brainwashed and if one disagrees with the society they are destroyed just as in strict communism.

Clive: Well, I “do not agree with society”, and yet I have survived. But I also recognise that I AM society. I mean fundamentally my mind has the same characteristics as other minds – it manifests greed, ambition, fear, desire, it pursues pleasure, and all the rest of it.

This did not happen in the past. Please question if you dont find this to be the truth, but to me it is clear.

Clive: People were certainly prosecuted for their religious beliefs in the past. The early Christians were crucified by the Roman empire, and then, when THEY had organised themselves into a Church, they prosecuted the “non-believers” in turn, even burning them at the stake. To mention just two examples.

One cannot have love, which is understanding of everyone at the same time, in the same amount while agreeing with someone who does not have love.

Clive: I do not see why you put so much importance to “agreement”, Link. That seems a superficial thing.

That is why K never got through to anyone.

Clive: Well, this has been discussed quite a lot on the forum, whether he did or not. It seems clear to me his words have touched some people.

Most people are not even aware of how this works within themselves. They feel that they have been wronged and what they are doing, as violent and divisive as it is, is right and moral. Thats why Krishnamurti said that the hurt mind is not an innocent mind. Now when one is in that spot they tend to react negatively to this as if it was dreadful. None of that is true and a person can get hung up on that misunderstanding for lifetimes. Krishnamurti made very clear that one who has love or is perceiving truth is a very happy person, full of constant enjoyment and inward richness.

Clive: I quote from a talk in Ojai, May 28th 1944:

Questioner: “I am very depressed, and how am I to get over it?”

Krishnamurti: “It is natural, is it not, to be depressed at his present time when there is so much killing, confusion and sorrow........”

There is no part of it which is dreadful. If the animal did not understand itself and merely did what it wanted, there would be endless conflict. Not just with others, but also with appetite. The Christians came along and said no pleasure. They said that morality is dreadful, that one must be punished and not enjoy. K made very clear that this is false. That does not mean that mindless pleasure is truth. What is the integral factor is the understanding of thought. To learn about thought one must be free of self righteousness or defense.

Clive: I feel that is absolutely right, what is essential is to understand thought. But one has to start from where one is; there is no use in laying down conditions for that understanding.

The me which is acting from the past. Everyone is acting from the past. Everything they do is divisive. We have built a society which is a superficial game. In this game people phonily agree with each other to avoid problems. This is not real communication, even if a person finds it favorable. It is a movement of isolation and one cannot be whole without being totally free of this. Disturbance and upheaval is involved.

Clive: Yes.

Im not a Trump supporter by the way. Im not political in that manner. Most normal people are tyrants. The Trump supporters are just as tyranny as the democrats. There is no way to say that one is less violent or more noble without being biased. There is no one is if free of any system or pattern which does this. Krishnamurti would not have been sided in any way related to politics. You cant understand others or be whole in that manner although these people constantly claim this in righteousness. It is totally insane. We have no functional civilization. Everything is governed by herd mentality. This is not going away.

Clive: the question which interests me is: can it 'go away' in myself?

About your last set of questions, what causes this? Krishnamurti has written in depth about this. It starts with thought, which is the me, pleasure. It is the understanding of the root cause of hurt and violence. Its hard to put it into one sentence or paragraph but it is a very basic factor. We come from the animal world, which is one of mere instincts and desires. One must free oneself from this world by understanding the workings of the mind. When one does this they are not vested in any system of government or any pattern of thought. This is hard to understand. Many people wind up thinking that one must be dreadful or in a prison as Christianity implied. But K made it clear that is not the case. K said that to try to become puritanical or moral was immoral and to cut off desire was impossible, which is also in contradiction to the Buddhists and Zen practitioners etc. These people merely control thought when it is necessary to understand it. It is only possible to understand thought with great upheaval. One must be free of respectability and the dos and donts of society. One must be free of society completely which is to be free of the me, not by trying but by actually understanding first hand. One must be filled with enjoyment, richness and happiness

Clive: Seems to me one has to be what one is. How easily the mind invents ideals of what it should or should not do. And how impossible it is for the mind to fulfil those ideals.

or else it is not possible to live correctly which is done by understanding thought, the me and also pleasure and pattern.. the past. One must understand themselves fully, not as any kind of hobby, but fully. They must understand themselves completely. This misunderstanding of pleasure and enjoyment which is common in the human race for thousands of years now must be understood. It is involved in the understanding of thought.To understand thought is not done by being respectable, by following the traditional dos and donts or being adjusted to the society like a regular person. The mind falls asleep in this. It doesnt want punishment. To be free of the sequence of punishment and reward requires that one understand thought very very deeply, not just try to become moral or puritanical or to control oneself. Control in this manner has no meaning.
Daniel Paul. wrote:
Last thing, I usually like anyone have a view about a different outer world , this is necessary yet could be totally illusory in the sense that we are only possibly dealing in facts with effects of effects etc not with root causes..,
Yes, thats right. Its a symptom as Krishnamurti said. To be free of the society means to understand this very deeply. It means to be free of any system such as capitalism or communism yet these people are the ones who unyieldingly insist that one must be adherent to this system. When one understands themselves and therefore the society and others and is free of all those things it triggers these people very deeply and they get very violent. They wont even let me communicate with them, they simply dont want any of that way of life. These people are above the law when you are in this position. They stalk me, threaten my life, threaten my family, harass me ruthlessly, assault me, blame me for things that i havent done. If i was to call the cops i would be the one going to jail.

Clive: I am not sure who you mean by “these people”, Link.

Here on this forum people do nothing but try to coerce one to this way of life as if the society is correct, as if it isnt just as sick as it was in the past, as if education is not involved.

Clive: I have to say that I have not observed this going on, on this forum.

I can barely even be around people without problems.

Clive: I think everyone finds difficulty in relating to people. I know I do. The difficulty lies not so much with individuals but with the mind itself. It is so enmeshed in conflict. But, as K said, “Relationship is a mirror in which to see oneself”, and I find this deeply meaningful.

When i do i have to keep my mouth shut or else i become part of some paradox, some game where i am beaten into submission or incriminated. I literally have to kill myself to avoid being tortured in prison because of no reason other than this. These people claim that i disrespect them just from being around them even though i was free of the society and had total compassion for them. It is because they do not want the already established pattern questioned. I have less rights than a stray animal and it is utter tyranny.
People will say that i should be a man and fight back yet to do that would be to be locked into a never ending pattern and feud and to be constantly occupied with that. That would mean that you understanding is limited to that pattern and way of life. It isnt that pattern which produces understanding and happiness yet feuding, strife, hatred, misery and contradiction. I can see that clearly right from the beginning. There is no 2 ways about it. There is no way to agree with them and have love, because they do not have love. They consider it heresy to even have the attitude of questioning them. Their heads are asleep and they dont want to be questioned, whenever they are confronted with the truth they scramble to justify their sleep and their past in whatever absurd manner necessary.
They will also say that we need to pay reparations to minorities. As Krishnamurti said those people will never be satisfied like that (see quote below). This just goes on endlessly and there is no progress made whatsoever. Every kind of initiative, culture, goodness or happiness is being totally destroyed by this. There is nothing good which can come from any of this.

Clive: Seeing this, one puts it all aside, in oneself.

Then there are the people who have a very strong sexual kink or appetite that are heavily vested in this. There pleasure is no less destructive than the pleasure in the past.
I just find this absolutely incredible and overwhelming that this monstrous tyranny exists in so-called free countries merely 30 years after Krishnamurti died and he never implied that he had any clue that it was coming. He just spoke as if civilization would go on relatively stable until computers began to take over thought, yet where we are right now does not reflect what he said. Its almost as if we are living in an alternate timeline. I literally have to throw myself in front of a train to avoid being tortured by this. I have people who stalk me that i used to work with merely because my mind was on a different plane. I have tried to explain this to them but they dont care. Most dont even let me contact them. If i did try i would be charged with harassment and screwed for life. Even if i wasnt charged i would be screwed for life.
These people say yes, please kill yourself. We hate you. We hate Autists, we hate plebians. This is alot like the communists speaking down about bourgeoisie. These people act as if they have love and are morally superior. What an atrocity. How could K have not seen this coming? How can people accept this this early?

Clive: I do not know why we should expect K to have predicted the future for us. He often said the future is essentially unknown. But he did often point out that we are destroying the planet, and destroying ourselves.

I cant go anywhere to get help and even if i did i would be labeled as a snitch and a traitor and tortured in prison. I have to kill myself. My family doesnt even care even though they are fully aware of everything ive posted in this thread.

I shouldnt be treated like this.

Clive: Such an attitude does not get us anywhere, Link, except deeper into the pain of self-pity.

How do we call this a civilization, it is totally broken. How can one live in this and not care? How is that even possible? Are you a cyborg?
Questioner: Will the rich ever be prepared to give up much of what they have for the sake of the poor?
Krishnamurti: We are not talking about what the rich should give up for the sake of the poor. Whatever they give up, it will still not satisfy the poor - but that is not the problem. You who are well-to-do, and who therefore have the opportunity to cultivate intelligence, can you not through revolt create a new society? it depends on you, not on anybody else; it depends on each one of us, not on the rich or the poor, or on the communists. You see, most of us have not this spirit of revolt this urge to break through, to find out; and it is this spirit that is important.

Clive: Of course K was talking about inner, psychological revolt, not political, not throwing bombs. And such a revolt is our responsibility if we are well fed, somewhat educated, with a modicum of leisure. We can hardly expect it from struggling from day to day just to survive.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #13
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: I do not follow discussions on the main forum, and so was curious. You are welcome to post here, Link.

Yes, thats basically why i started posting here. Please keep in mind that when most people speak of a quite place they are actually trying to shut out what disturbs them without realizing it. That kind of activity makes the mind unalert and fearful. There are many people who are cynical and perceive a serious person to be sarcastic and this also happens in relationship when one is not free of the society. It is very important to investigate together but it seems most of the time we assert what we already know. There are so many ways that people misunderstand each other and it seems that is mostly what happens in the world. When one is hurt there is the problem of communication and listening. It is necessary for people to disagree with each other if that is the honest truth and it is necessary for people to not just react and be hurt, its a very complex situation.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: Well, I “do not agree with society”, and yet I have survived. But I also recognise that I AM society. I mean fundamentally my mind has the same characteristics as other minds – it manifests greed, ambition, fear, desire, it pursues pleasure, and all the rest of it.

I am very curious about this. I dont mean to put you in a vulnerable spot, but it is something i have often wondered about other people. Most people that i have come across are strictly adhering to the social order. Im not sure its what they want, yet they dont seem to know what to make of discontentment or realize its significance and the role it plays in the world. They dont seem to realize that it is very significant in the resolution of false relationship, creativity, and the creation of a new society. I have never met someone who was not adhering to the social order. Most people may not even be aware of it yet whenever i am free of it and am being selfless in the manner of investigating together nobody listens. Nobody. Most people cant be bothered or they are caught up in their habits, pursuits etc. To investigate together the full depths of life involves a level of honesty most people are frightened of, there is total upheaval involved. I am not always in this spot and i do assert alot, but i have spent alot of time in this spot as i am very serious about ks teaching. It must be very rare to find a person in that spot. Maybe alot of people are not in that spot at the same time, but it does seem like it has a certain natural gravity to it.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: People were certainly prosecuted for their religious beliefs in the past. The early Christians were crucified by the Roman empire, and then, when THEY had organised themselves into a Church, they prosecuted the “non-believers” in turn, even burning them at the stake. To mention just two examples.

Yes, that is true. The world has always been chaos and disorder, but i have heard many try to suggest that to merely accept that is what Krishnamurti meant. It seems clear to me that one cannot separate the true perception of this with action, revolt. One cannot separate the perception of all this with crisis. Crisis to which one must act. If one puts enough thought into it they realize that one cannot have this burning revolt or feeling that action is necessary without being alert and if one were to say otherwise they would fall asleep. For the right kind of action it is necessary to understand oneself to the point that the image of themselves in non-existent. As K said where i am not the other is. Cross out the I etc. When one does this they dont just accept or fall asleep. K said that we are living in a time where we must act he said that 40 and 50 years ago. There would not be this sense of urgency if there was no danger of destruction involved. There are points of no turning back.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: I do not see why you put so much importance to “agreement”, Link. That seems a superficial thing.

I was saying that it would be impossible to agree with the society and have love.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: Well, this has been discussed quite a lot on the forum, whether he did or not. It seems clear to me his words have touched some people.

Yes, he said he touched the world a small bit, but is that really enough? Is it enough to be pacified with? If he is not understood fully at some point in the future than all that has no meaning, it can easily be forgotten if it isnt understood in the first place.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: I feel that is absolutely right, what is essential is to understand thought. But one has to start from where one is; there is no use in laying down conditions for that understanding.

Yes, one must start from where they are, but do we do that? Many people may ask how is it to be done, which means they arent fully interested. Krishnamurti said that when one really wants to understand something like this they dont ask how. There is no real how. You cannot just teach something like that through instructions, one must feel every bit of it out themselves and they must start where they are, yet it seems this is not often done. It is no different from the learning which one does in school, but no one is guided.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: the question which interests me is: can it 'go away' in myself?

We must be free of it but is that done in the manner that most people would suggest? One would first have to be totally aware of it, but most people arent interested in doing that. Krishnamurti has said that to understand the society and be free of it means to be free of psychological suffering. Most people dont seem to correlate the 2 and therefore dont feel real enthusiasm for what is involved in being free of the society.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: I quote from a talk in Ojai, May 28th 1944:

Questioner: “I am very depressed, and how am I to get over it?”

Krishnamurti: “It is natural, is it not, to be depressed at his present time when there is so much killing, confusion and sorrow........”

And yet Krishnamurti has said that to be free of society was to be free of psychological suffering. He said that education he described was incapable of being hurt or suffering. Maybe this what we misunderstand on the forum.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: Seems to me one has to be what one is. How easily the mind invents ideals of what it should or should not do. And how impossible it is for the mind to fulfil those ideals.

Yes, one must understand what one is. They must understand the workings of their mind and to do that one must start where they are, but to say that one must be only what one is and accept it is what most people suggest. There is investigation into oneself that is necessary. A person cannot do that with any ideas of themselves, others or anything really. The ideas are a hindrance to that. Now, do most people do this? Do they ever begin? It seems as though most people are content with themselves and the world and that is why upheaval is necessary. Without upheaval the vitality to investigate is gone, it would be impossible without tremendous energy which comes from upheaval.

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: I am not sure who you mean by “these people”, Link.

There is a situation that i am in that i cannot talk about to people casually who are strangers. I must communicate it in a necessary way. It is actually quite interesting and ide be willing to share it with anyone who would take me seriously. It is a situation that has been happening in my life outside of the internet (not on forums etc.). It involves the police and other people who claim to be prison inmates, gang members. It sounds really corny but i never had anything to do with that corniness, it was just put on me. Im a totally innocent person but a very strange situation has happened to me and i am despised by some very angry people. I dont even know these people, i have never talked to them, just worked with them and have been around them. It is totally insane but i am not the one who ever encouraged this corniness, it came totally from other people i was around. All i'll say in this post is that the police department where i live has fed a bunch of false information about me to gang members and prison inmates and then they try to fraudulently arrest me. I have alot of people that want to kill me and stalk me. They want to disable my functionality until i am in prison and then torture me. I know there is no way that another person can just believe that and that it sounds like i am some criminal but i insist that i am totally innocent. My criminal record does not indicate what is going on. I know alot of people would hear this and think i was a little sissy but i asked for none of this and most of these people knew i was serious in the manner K was. Even if someone was as serious about Ks teaching as i have indicated here and they were wrong it would still be totally unreasonable to do to them what these people have done to me. They are like a network of people, they all know me and talk about me. They hate me. I am not mentally ill. If i man-up then i cannot understand what K meant with the right kind of sensitivity. If i fight back i am then married to the system. I would like for all this to be made known or public. It disgusts me and is a big part of the reason why i talk about tyranny. It is an enormous situation that most people would not understand the depths of and they would incorrectly downplay it. I feel helpless. Which is why i talk about killing myself. There is no justification which makes what is happening in my life right or true. I dont know how another person can watch this happen to someone and not care. I need someone to know about this.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #14
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 314 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
Most people are actually headed in the opposite direction. They dont want to be disturbed in that "direction". They usually dont want to hear anything other than what they find favorable. They translate what is said and are hurt or offended when what is said does not line up with that. When they are discontent in that manner they are looking for some kind of answer but the answer is usually patchwork to the already established pattern. This whole apparatus of thought does not want to be hurt. Alot of this is sustained because the world is filled with condemnation and hatred.. scorn.

-

Link Smickman wrote:
At the same time to have love means to be free of the society, as K said. That is not possible when one is understanding another in the way they suggest or the way society suggests. All hurt people do this, especially when they have a type of security. Something that they are afraid of losing. Honesty is involved, also seriousness, also attachment, security, fear. Most people are not honest and it appears at this point that one is simply not allowed to question this system.

Yes, a perfect picture of the world in which we live now for most of us! ... Fully agree with you (i.e.: feel the same), questioning that pattern with another, seriously, honestly, is quite difficult nowadays

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

This post was last updated by Juan E Fri, 17 Mar 2017.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #15
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 78 posts in this forum Offline

'Honesty' is a problematic word, it could happen only in layers and always leave a residual question of what course of action needs be taken, it can make us buckle (though we call it an upheaval in an attempt to energize us further for action) when facing perceptual challenges. What K was getting at, as I see, is a slightly different thing, i.e.'integrity', which by default implies honesty (at all levels) but not being overwhelmed by it.

contraria sunt complementa

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #16
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
'Honesty' is a problematic word,

Is it? Is it not in total and complete honesty that one finds truth? Find out. Explore it. When there is total honesty is there not a state of clarity? Do most people have clarity?

Most people would also say that honesty is not complete... But when you are really burning with the urge to find out, when you really do want to understand, then it is different.. To be free of suffering also means to have a deep rooted desire to be free of confusion, then to find out has a different meaning.. Then you dont ask how....

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #17
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3478 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
Please keep in mind that when most people speak of a quite place they are actually trying to shut out what disturbs them without realizing it.
etc in #13

Clive: My apologies, Link, that I simply do not have the time to respond to all of your postings. I can only pick out a few points here and there

Yes, thats basically why i started posting here. Please keep in mind that when most people speak of a quite place they are actually trying to shut out what disturbs them without realizing it.

Clive: That is often the case, yes.

That kind of activity makes the mind unalert and fearful. There are many people who are cynical and perceive a serious person to be sarcastic and this also happens in relationship when one is not free of the society. It is very important to investigate together but it seems most of the time we assert what we already know.

Yes indeed

There are so many ways that people misunderstand each other and it seems that is mostly what happens in the world. When one is hurt there is the problem of communication and listening. It is necessar­y for people to disagree with each other if that is the honest truth and it is necessary for people to not just react and be hurt, its a very complex situation.
Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: Well, I “do not agree with society”, and yet I have survived. But I also recognise that I AM society. I mean fundamentally my mind has the same characteristics as other minds – it manifests greed, ambition, fear, desire, it pursues pleasure, and all the rest of it.
I am very curious about this. I dont mean to put you in a vulnerable spot,

Clive: Please question me freely.

but it is something i have often wondered about other people. Most people that i have come across are strictly adhering to the social order. Im not sure its what they want, yet they dont seem to know what to make of discontentment or realize its significance and the role it plays in the world. They dont seem to realize that it is very significant in the resolution of false relationship, creativity, and the creation of a new society. I have never met someone who was not adhering to the social order. Most people may not even be aware of it yet whenever i am free of it and am being selfless in the manner of investigating together nobody listens. Nobody. Most people cant be bothered or they are caught up in their habits, pursuits etc. To investigate together the full depths of life involves a level of honesty most people are frightened of, there is total upheaval involved. I am not always in this spot and i do assert alot, but i have spent alot of time in this spot as i am very serious about ks teaching. It must be very rare to find a person in that spot. Maybe alot of people are not in that spot at the same time, but it does seem like it has a certain natural gravity to it.

Clive: I resonate with what you say, Link. When one starts this journey of inner exploration, one quickly realises one needs to give no heed to what others might think of one. But one does need to examine what they say in terms of what is true and false.

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Sat, 18 Mar 2017 #18
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3478 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote:
Yes, one must start from where they are, but do we do that? Many people may ask how is it to be done, which means they arent fully interested.

Clive: Link, instead of these points about 'people' I suggest that the only significant issue is what I am doing, how I am responding to K's teachings, and to life. I cannot change other people, so I am left with the simple question, can I change myself? Either one is concerned with this question, or one is not. Either way let us face the fact.

And yet Krishnamurti has said that to be free of society was to be free of psychological suffering.

Clive: but we are not free. That is the fact to be faced.

but to say that one must be only what one is and accept it is what most people suggest.

Clive: The word “accept” is a tricky one, is it not? It can mean resignation, the theory of Karma, the conclusion that one cannot change ….... or it can mean seeing what is, with judgement, without conclusion. The seeing of what is brings its own change.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #19
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Clive: My apologies, Link, that I simply do not have the time to respond to all of your postings. I can only pick out a few points here and there

Yes, its no problem. I wasnt really writing to get responses. Dont feel obligated. I too watch myself in that manner you describe and yet the world goes on the same. When someone is committing crimes which damage your life and they dont understand themselves then some kind of action is necessary. One is not allowed to speak of these things which would be necessary to educate oneself and others, by these things i mean to suggest to a person to understand their mind. When one does this these people get very offended and the society and law is very heavily slanted in their favor, to the point of tyranny. By these people mean everyone, normal people. I have done this before with total selflessness and have wound up being despised and hated. They take advantage of every kind of loop hole and corruption to screw me over. There is no reason why i should have to go through what i do because of this. These people are ruthless, they understand the system like the back of their hand. If i was to fight back i would wind up going through the system and being destroyed. I find it odd that most of the people who speak in this manner of "manning-up" are very thoughtless people who dont seem to have any understanding of their reactions and mind. They are basically a kind of mindless bimbo who only want to kill me. These people are very resembling of a communist and often speak in favor of communism or related ways of life. At least it is like that where i live. I just cannot understand for the life of me why other people dont seem to fully agree. I mean they do on a shallow level but they dont seem to be remotely burning with the desire to be free of it. They dont feel how revolting it is in their blood and heart.

This post was last updated by Link Smickman Sun, 19 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #20
Thumb_stringio Link Smickman United States 54 posts in this forum Offline

I mean, we speak as if we need to be punished.. K said such a thing was tyranny. I dont know what truth to that is but i do know a person cannot talk about this anywhere, really. And i thank you, Clive for understanding. If this was facebook i would have been banned by now. I am not a racist, though i have been branded that by people claiming that on a shallow level. Im not a Trump supporter. I do think, Clive that the difference between our understandings lies in this part where you say you understand others and i dont.. When you say the people on this forum understand each other. Thats the part i disagree with. I think romanticism and imagination may be involved.

K often spoke of discontentment, total upheaval and how that played into life.. Yet here on this forum we often speak as though our ideas and romanticism play into one anothers...

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Mon, 20 Mar 2017 #21
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3478 posts in this forum Offline

Link Smickman wrote in #19:
When someone is committing crimes which damage your life and they dont understand themselves then some kind of action is necessary

Clive: This is quite a question, is it not? One the other threads we have been discussing that action from a confused mind (which we are) will never be right action, and will always bring more confusion and misery. So is it so that “some kind of action is necessary”? Perhaps that necessary action is the seeing that thought is confused, that thought does not know how to act rightly.

K said that the highest form of action is non-action.

However, the above is speaking of the psyche, and might be misleading - there is definitely a need for action when faced with practical matters, and challenges that might physically threaten one. But is there any need for the "Me" to be involved with such action?

ne is not allowed to speak of these things which would be necessary to educate oneself and others, by these things i mean to suggest to a person to understand their mind. When one does this these people get very offended and the society and law is very heavily slanted in their favor, to the point of tyranny.
Clive: I was not aware that there is some law against psychological truth, at least as yet.

By these people mean everyone, normal people. I have done this before with total selflessness and have wound up being despised and hated. They take advantage of every kind of loop hole and corruption to screw me over. There is no reason why i should have to go through what i do because of this. These people are ruthless, they understand the system like the back of their hand. If i was to fight back i would wind up going through the system and being destroyed. I find it odd that most of the people who speak in this manner of "manning-up" are very thoughtless people who dont seem to have any understanding of their reactions and mind. They are basically a kind of mindless bimbo who only want to kill me. These people are very resembling of a communist and often speak in favor of communism or related ways of life. At least it is like that where i live. I just cannot understand for the life of me why other people dont seem to fully agree. I mean they do on a shallow level but they dont seem to be remotely burning with the desire to be free of it. They dont feel how revolting it is in their blood and heart.

from #20

ean, we speak as if we need to be punished.. K said such a thing was tyranny. I dont know what truth to that is but i do know a person cannot talk about this anywhere, really.

Clive: I don't know if it important or necessary to inquire with others. Certainly if there is no traction with one's discussions with others, why should one struggle? Is one trying to convince another of something?

And i thank you, Clive for understanding. If this was facebook i would have been banned by now. I am not a racist, though i have been branded that by people claiming that on a shallow level. Im not a Trump supporter. I do think, Clive that the difference between our understandings lies in this part where you say you understand others and i dont.. When you say the people on this forum understand each other. Thats the part i disagree with.

Clive: I don't remember saying either of those two things (in bold), Link. Can you point it out to me, there may be a misunderstanding.

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Wed, 22 Mar 2017 #22
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3478 posts in this forum Offline

Some days ago , Link, you made a post which I cannot find now, but I had copied it to reply later,and it ended:

How can people accept this god forsaken society?? This is a crisis. Lets talk about this so we start a new society. Do you want to do that? I do. Lets do that.

What should i do? Look i am sincerely in a crisis and i need help. Where do i go for help? I do understand if other people are in the same crisis. So lets talk about this and change it. Lets start a new society as k spoke of.

There are several questions there. First let us acknowledge that society IS in crisis, and the human mind is in crisis. It seems that not many people recognise ackowledge that, at least judging by their actions. There seems no great urgency to change.

So you say “let's start a new society”. This has been attempted at various times in human history, always, as far as I know, based on some ideology, some faith, belief. Or centred on some charismatic leader. All these attempts have failed, I would say, a new society, in any fundamental sense, has never been created.

Still, anyone with any seriousness would ask this question, can a new, a different society be created. The old one is so corrupt, so violent, so callous, and is, in fact, in the terminal stages of collapse. Krishnamurti asked this question. I think he asked if a small group could come together … but I have never really grasped what he was suggesting. And rather write more, I will hand the reins to you, Link, or to anyone else, to carry on with this inquiry. Link, if you are interested to continue, would you open up a new thread?

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