Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
A Quiet Space | moderated by Clive Elwell

Thought and the space between thought


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Wed, 15 Mar 2017 #31
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3560 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Santi

My apologies for the delay in replying to your post, and thanks for making it.

Santi wrote: Going through a gap or a space between thoughts does not look like being a great change at all. Clive hints that the importance of the space between thoughts is a possible “way beyond all the chaos.

I look back and see that I wrote: "Is there a way beyond all the chaos, a way that does not involve thought?"

I see now that I was wrong to use the phrase “A way”, (although it was in fact put as a question, an open question), as inevitably “way” suggests a method, and in that method that is the implication that there is someone who is applying that method, some entity who is pursuing some goal. It is seen that goals are inevitably created by thought. Let us put aside all suggestion of pursuing anything, and just examine if we can see what is, the actual state of affairs of the mind, of consciousness.

I want to emphasise that I was never suggesting that this space in thought can be USED by thought.

Santi wrote: Why do not mention also deep sleep that is a gap in thinking we go through every night, if everything in ourselves is quiet enough. In fact, when we think to deep sleep it is evident that we have no way to describe it and there is not, either, a great change coming out of that.

It has never occurred to me to compare the gap in thought with the state of deep sleep. I really don't know if they are comparable. And I would not entirely agree that there is “no great change coming out of that” - deep sleep has considerable powers of renewal, of creation.

Santi wrote: Is it so? Do we have an experience of that kind? Or it comes from K words?

If it comes from K words it has no value, it would be a second hand idea, a dead thing.

I very carefully explained that there can be no “experience” of this space in thought, Santi. Experience implies an experiencer, which is absent on the space, since the experiencer is a product of thought.

Indeed, the danger of being conditioned by K's words, by any words in fact, is very great. I think in the end all thought (except the practical of course) has to be negated. Is then one left with pure seeing?

Santi wrote: So, the chaos is the problem, the conflict is the problem.

Indeed it is, Santi. It is important never to try to escape from this fact, through ideas.

Santi wrote:
Is thought responsible for that? Why to speak of thought as responsible for all the misery we live? Thought is an instrument, is it not? Would you say that an instrument is responsible? A hammer is responsible for crashing my finger?

If thought is regarded as a tool, then who is the user, the wielder of the tool, would you say, Santi? This is the problem, isn't it? Thought itself has created the idea of a wielder, it behaves as if there is an entity that uses thought, that chooses, that decides, that controls, etc, quite separately from itself. Is this not an illusion, the illusion that is responsible for the chaos and the conflict that you mentioned?

Thought is trying to wield itself, and so it is not guided by intelligence.

Santi wrote: The way the question has been put shows the space between thoughts as opposite or radically different from thinking. Is it so? Is that silent background unrelated to thinking?

That is a good question, Santi. As I am seeing it at the moment, yes, that space is unrelated to thinking. It cuts thinking off. It is the death of thinking. It does not depend on thinking for its existence.

Santi wrote: Is silence the opposite of thinking?

A similar question has been with me: “Is silence the opposite of noise”. As I mentioned to Wim, I want to pursue this

I will end for now

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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 #32
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 314 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is silence the opposite of noise?

Or in other words, are silence and noise two different things? ... I don't think so ... To me silence is a quality where noise is "known" ... Now, does noise end because that silence, or noise does simply end when it doesn't find a ground to continue existing after silence as quality has looked at it? ... So, is that quality divided from noise, or as Buddha would say "because there's noise, there is silence - because there's silence there is noise"?

Just letting my hands write what my heart feels about it! :-)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #33
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3560 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Or in other words, are silence and noise two different things? ...

May I ask if you read the extract from K in the "Silence .... hesitantly" thread #66? Not saying that you shoud! I am still contemplating it, will come back to it.

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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 #34
Thumb_avatar Juan E Spain 314 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
May I ask if you read the extract from K in the "Silence .... hesitantly" thread #66? Not saying that you shoud!

Of course! No problem, Clive ;-) ...
I'll read it and i will come back to it also, as i must go to work now ...
"See" you later then! :-)

"When i talk to audiences, they know what i'm talking about ... another thing is that they do something about it" - K. Brockwood Park (Making ideas of the Teaching)

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #35
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 12 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
Yes, by definition ... but K also said somewhere, that thought is able to keep some memory of that space without the me ... and it is through that memory that though tries to penetrate that space in its wish to understand it ... And so, it is in that trying to understand that space by thought itself that that which creates the disturbance that prevents us to observe it really occurs ... Because that space will never be understood by thought but simply living it without thought ... And it is in that living space that everything is understood by nobody.

Yes, Juan, sometimes, while watching a face, for instance, there is only the face, the person I am looking at. There is no me. Of course, it happens randomically, I have no control on it. It is a very strange feeling and yes, you are right, or K was right, I have a memory of the absence of the me, but thought cannot understand that, I cannot find words to describe that and yet it seems to be so simple, nothing extraordinary.

I wonder if that very short period is what K calls meditation.

I guess you speak Portuguese. :-)

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #36
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 12 posts in this forum Offline

Olive B wrote:

14:HOW CAN YOU QUOTE ME ON YOUR OWN QUESTION JOSE?

What is happening here??

It was a software problem, located exactly between my chair and my keyboard. :-)

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #37
Thumb_open-uri20151228-18124-1kyi3s7-0 Jose Roberto Moreira Brazil 12 posts in this forum Offline

Santi Borgni wrote:
Clive starts stating that that space is “something that is probably actually impossible to describe”. Why it is seen as being so important if one does not know a thing about it?

Very good question. Would we give it the same importance if K had not spoken about it?

Ever since I was a little boy, I suspected there was something different in the silence I could perceive, particularly when in contact with nature. But I never gave it too much importance until I read K.

Maybe the most important point here is realize that our mind is not quick enough to see when thought arises or ends and observe that time interval between.

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Sun, 19 Mar 2017 #38
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 3560 posts in this forum Offline

Juan E wrote:
. but K also said somewhere, that thought is able to keep some memory of that space without the me ... and it is through that memory that though tries to penetrate that space in its wish to understand it ... And so, it is in that trying to understand that space by thought itself that that which creates the disturbance that prevents us to observe it really occurs ... Because that space will never be understood by thought but simply living it without thought ... And it is in that living space that everything is understood by nobody.

I somehow missed this post earlier, but now Jose has drawn my attention to it. Yes, that you for this, Juan, I find it very interesting, This mirrors my own observations, my own perceptions. I started off the thread by saying that it is probably impossible to describe this space where thought is non existent. Thought can only describe what it knows, which is to describe itself really.

And now Jose highlights Santi's question:

Why it is seen as being so important if one does not know a thing about it?

Perhaps it is seen as important precisely because one does not, and can not, know a thing about it. The things that one does know are not very important, are they? Practical knowledge has a certain importance in providing what the body needs, but beyond that? The only importance of psychological knowledge is that it exists, and its existence has brought chaos and destruction to the world.

So looking again at the question: why is it so important to consider, to be concerned with this space beyond thought? Both these words, consider, be concerned wit, are suspect, because they still hint at the activity of thought. But I would say this space is the ending, the death of thought (even if momentary). It cuts through thought, it is an ending to thought's machinations, its causes and effects, its defenses. It reveals thought as being what it is.

And K says (or was it Juan?) that it is only in that space that understanding occurs.

I hope we can carry on with this inquiry, difficult as it is.

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