Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Definition Addiction. John T's New Year message


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Sun, 08 Jan 2017 #1
Thumb_stringio David T United Kingdom 150 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

where does the impression of myself come from? Just a few observations (Perhaps even facts). One has to be thinking to be aware that one is thinking,without thought there is no thinking.without thinking there is no impression of my self. So the self is thought dependent.no thought no I. It is the form that thought constructs,not all thought is bad,that brings about the self. When thought is used in the form that gives the impression that I am having a conversation,call it talking to ones self,then the self emerges. In my opinion,I think,etc are the consequence of the conversational identity activity of thought. Conversation can just become synchronised self perpetuation. Ok well if you want to continue deluding yourself in the belief that you exist,fair enough,we all have a choice to be or not to be. The problems arise when one takes ones self seriously. If one has a self image then one has to sustain it,there is a constant need for reassurance,the need to receive approval,but the consequence of a self image is the fear of disapproval.

I am a figment of my and your imagination

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Sun, 08 Jan 2017 #2
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1690 posts in this forum Offline

David T wrote:
Ok well if you want to continue deluding yourself in the belief that you exist,fair enough,we all have a choice to be or not to be. The problems arise when one takes ones self seriously

A choice, David? Not too sure about that. A choice implies a chooser, no? Thought, emotion, arises. Who chooses to accept or reject? It's there. One is already conditioned. One can't pretend one is not, when he is.

The QOTD:
"What is awareness? There is objective awareness. Then, there is the emotional response to each other or to truth. Then, there is awareness of ideas, of thinking, conscious or unconscious. It is a widening and deepening grasp of both the conscious and unconscious. It is a clear recognition of what is, not what should be or what, ideologically, should take place. To be aware implies to recognize and to know fully and clearly how the "I" is moving, living and functioning - physically, psychologically, consciously or unconsciously."

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 08 Jan 2017.

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Sun, 08 Jan 2017 #3
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1690 posts in this forum Offline

David T wrote:
The problems arise when one takes ones self seriously.

Absolutely. When you're a kid and someone calls you an idiot, you think/feel that, yes, you are this thing called an idiot. We don't see that 'idiot' is just a word...an image, idea. We think it's something that I am. Same when your teacher in school says you're good or bad(you misbehaved). You may feel that this bad is something you are....a thing. "I am bad" is a terrible kind of identity, no? But the small child takes this kind of image to be a reality. And most adults retain these kind of self images in the unconscious. "I am great"...."I am special", etc. The positive images can be just as dangerous.

Let it Be

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Mon, 09 Jan 2017 #4
Thumb_stringio David T United Kingdom 150 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Morning Tom,
perhaps we could have an exchange regarding choice. The statement that choice infers a chooser is correct if one approaches choice from thought.However what if one approaches it from the state of non-thought,where there is no chooser because there is no thought. I am only using the term 'one'for the sake of clarity not to infer the existence of a thinker. It could be said that the commencement of thinking is the source of the chooser. Therefore no thought no thinker,no chooser,no I. Thinking is not the natural state of consciousness it has to be learnt,it is a mechanical process,only able to enter consciousness when energised. Anyway I am drifting lets get back to choice,let's look at a K term. What is meant by 'choiceless awareness'?
Have to stop now as Enzo ( a dog) has got up so he needs a walk and his breakfast. Speak to you later.

I am a figment of my and your imagination

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Mon, 09 Jan 2017 #5
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1690 posts in this forum Offline

David T wrote:
However what if

'What if' is thinking!

David T wrote:
Therefore no thought no thinker,no chooser,no I.

How did you arrive at the above? By thinking logically, right?

David T wrote:
Thinking is not the natural state of consciousness it has to be learnt,it is a mechanical process,only able to enter consciousness when energised.

What is the energizing factor? Can you say?

David T wrote:
lets get back to choice,let's look at a K term. What is meant by 'choiceless awareness'?

I was never too clear what K. meant, but awareness of 'what actually is' is how I'm understanding it. Even awareness of thought....emotion...conflict....without trying(choosing) to act upon it. Tricky, because thought immediately acts upon thought or emotion with a 'I must not (think that way...feel that way...be that way)'.

Can we start with what is, David? I wake up in the morning and immediately thinking starts. There's unresolved issues at work....an unresolved conflict with my wife...worry about my child, etc. It may have even started before I wake with an anxious dream in the very early morning. All that is 'what is'. Do you say that one 'chose' those thoughts and emotions? Who is that 'one' but another thought/image?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Mon, 09 Jan 2017.

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Mon, 09 Jan 2017 #6
Thumb_stringio David T United Kingdom 150 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hi Tom,
Just for starters here is how 'choiceless awareness appears. Thought can not end thought so how can the ending of thought come about. K mentioned that there is an effortless action that ends thought. Have you enquired as to what this effortless action could be? From direct experiencing of this e.a.it is seen that the duration of the e.a.is always longer than a thought,so that when the e.a. Comes to an end there is no longer a thought in the consciousness. This allows the choiceless awareness to return from its displacement by thought. Choiceless awareness remains until thought begins again. It is choiceless because the choice to think has not been made,as there is no thinking to make a choice.
When the state of c.a.is present there is a heightened awareness of the danger of beginning thinking again. This is not a choice made by thought it is like coming to the edge of a cliff,one doesn't make a choice one just acts.
Enough of that. Only when thought has ended can one see it begin.

I am a figment of my and your imagination

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Mon, 09 Jan 2017 #7
Thumb_a1056283319_2 Tom Paine United States 1690 posts in this forum Offline

David T wrote:
K mentioned that there is an effortless action that ends thought

He did? I'm not aware of that.

David T wrote:
Have you enquired as to what this effortless action could be?

That would be more thought ...speculation. Enquiry is thinking about it, no?

David T wrote:
From direct experiencing of this e.a.it is seen that the duration of the e.a.is always longer than a thought,s

You totally lose me here, I'm afraid. Perhaps others may have some insight into this point. It's Greek to me, I must say.

David T wrote:
When the state of c.a.is present there is a heightened awareness of the danger of beginning thinking again.

Why is it a danger?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 10 Jan 2017.

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