Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

Krishna Murthy's message


Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 153 in total
Tue, 16 Nov 2010 #1
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Dear friends,

K's message is:

Keep one's house clean and keep the door "open"

Regards
Sunyata

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 17 Nov 2010 #2
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Well Sunyata, won't we get burgled?

Seriously speaking it's quite a message. Where do we begin?

Sign in to recommend  This post has been recommended by 1 reader
Back to Top
Wed, 17 Nov 2010 #3
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Maybe start by walking throught the house and sitting, meditating for some time in each room. See what is in it. See what we have furninshed and decorated it with. See who comes and goes and what their activities are. First, understand your house from basement to attic. Then, you might find, it is the self-cleaning kind!

Maybe you have to be both in and out of the house, watching how it responds to each passing cloud, each season, floods and droughts, the small bird who nests under the gutter. Be quite sure that it is just a house and maybe recall the words of Jesus that the son of man has no home, no place to rest his head.

Then sit in the garden and read Rumi's poem, The Guest House. - Can be viewed at http://www.spiritcardcenter.com/animated.php

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 17 Nov 2010 #4
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

sunyata sunyata wrote:
Keep one's house clean and keep the door "open"

Our consciousness with its contents is the house. What would be the meaning of cleaning here ? Which contents need cleaning and in what manner ?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 17 Nov 2010 #5
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Where do we begin?

We begin with observing what is happening in our consciousness at this moment ? If you have a better suggestion, then do tell, please.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 17 Nov 2010 #6
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Maybe start by walking throught the house and sitting,

No chance of sitting in a mad house, Paul!

For a passive observer, may be the house will do all the moving to show its contents!:-)

FLOW WITH LIFE!

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Nov 2010 #7
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Well Sunyata, won't we get burgled?

Hi Kapila,

I am a "beggar" to start out with (My bowl is full)!. Only thing another person can "steal from me" is "my begged food" and I will be very happy that the other person is satisfied with his "hunger"! I want to have my "bowl" is empty to receive some thing "new"!

Regards
Sunyata

This post was last updated by sunyata sunyata Thu, 18 Nov 2010.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Nov 2010 #8
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Where do we begin?

Dear Kapila,

We should begin at the "bottom":)

Regards
Sunyata

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Nov 2010 #9
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Which contents need cleaning and in what manner ?

Who is going to do the cleaning up?

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Nov 2010 #10
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
If you have a better suggestion,

No. Paul appears to be saying the same.Implied in this is that observation will do the cleaning up.How will a new person come to it?Is there a way?It seems so natural to us now.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Nov 2010 #11
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

sunyata sunyata wrote:
at the "bottom

Where exactly do you mean by this? It's not clear to me.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Nov 2010 #12
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Well Sunyata, won't we get burgled?

If only . . . Oh please, come in and take the lot, it is only my burdens, my collection of minor troubles, it is only the past accumulation, it does not really exist. You are welcome.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
sunyata sunyata wrote: at the "bottom
Where exactly do you mean by this? It's not clear to me.

I am supposing that the bottom of the house is the basement. The bottom of a man is his feet. Feet, in symbolic language, implies that which is closest to the ground, the material world. In this sense it means sensation and desire. In stories of old there is the washing of the feet, just as there is the purification of the heart and the straightening out of the thought. There is the taking off of shoes when approaching holy ground or holy places. Do not bring the street into someone's house.

But starting with the feet is the sunyasi way, the giving up of material possessions. It has been tried a million times, no? Not only in India but it is exemplified in the Christian tradition by John the Baptist who Jesus described as greater than any born of woman but lessor than the smallest of heaven. He had denied the material but had not reached the spiritual. Denial does not get you there. There must be understanding and then there is no need for denial.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Thu, 18 Nov 2010.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 18 Nov 2010 #13
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Implied in this is that observation will do the cleaning up.How will a new person come to it?

The journey of observation has no goal or destination. If anyone starts on this journey to attain something (cleaning up), then act of observation is already compromised.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Is there a way?

No 'way' in the sense that takes one to a destination.

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
It seems so natural to us now.

What did you do right to avoid the traps and pitfalls?:-)

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Sudhir Sharma Thu, 18 Nov 2010.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 19 Nov 2010 #14
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
I am supposing that the bottom of the house is the basement. The bottom of a man is his feet. Feet, in symbolic language, implies that which is closest to the ground, the material world. In this sense it means sensation and desire. In stories of old there is the washing of the feet, just as there is the purification of the heart and the straightening out of the thought. There is the taking off of shoes when approaching holy ground or holy places. Do not bring the street into someone's house.

Dear Paul,

That's exactly correct (This writer is blessed with your narration)!

This writer is leaving this forum as of today, knowing that there are "pillars" inplace to support the harmonious existence of one with all beings (at least as long as you and dear George are in the Forum)

This writer will return some time in the future.

Regards
Sunyata

This post was last updated by sunyata sunyata Fri, 19 Nov 2010.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 19 Nov 2010 #15
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
.How will a new person come to it?Is there a way?It seems so natural to us now.

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
The journey of observation has no goal or destination.

I understand Dr.I didn't mean there is a way.

Both you & Paul said of observing, looking into the house. Now what I mean is a new comer will have in the house a whole lot of theories,conclusions,prejudices & so on. Now can this person look, observe? Can he/she look with all the prejudices & so on? For example here if you tell a Buddhist person to look at this house he/she will immediately sit & start watching the breath! It is called anapana sathi.You sit & watch your breath-inhalation & exhalation.Now in this person's house it says to look you must practice that which is samatha meditation first.Which is totally rubbish as I underastand & I do not think the Buddha ever said that.Now a person with Christian or Muslim background will immediately start praying.The original teachers might not have meant this type of thing.Now what is a theory, a conclusion, a prejudice? Can a person look with all that? That's the question.

This post was last updated by Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sat, 20 Nov 2010.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 19 Nov 2010 #16
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
Now what I mean is a new comer will have in the house a whole lot of theories,conclusions,prejudices & so on. Now can this person look, observe? Can he/she look with all the prejudices & so on?

Ah Yes, Kapila, but your newcomer may not be the one you expected and described so well. He may be far 'ahead' of you and me and observe our theories and prejudices that with that sense of distaste and compassion which is necessary to understanding.

Of course it is always necessary to taste first and distaste afterwards. 'Suck it and see' as they say.

But let us provide that a person such as you describe enters the portcullis and trteads upon our hallowed ground. Many do so with muddy boots, all the accumulation of life sticking to the soles. What is s/he to do first?

Surely, if they have some sense of seriousness and humility they will at least notice the muddy trail left in their wake and endeavour to take off their shoes. That must be the starting point or there will be little communication here.

And does not this apply to each one of us, not just the newcomer. I have noticed sadly that there are those among us who go to bed with their boots on and awake with the same mud.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 19 Nov 2010.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Mon, 22 Nov 2010 #17
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Muddy Boots & Clean Polished Boots:

Buddhist meditation is two fold as it is taught & practiced in Buddhist centers. First samatha meditation & then vipassana meditation which is insight meditation. Now samatha means calm or quiet. It is translated as concentration meditation & some practices to achieve one pointedness is taught.Now concentration can mean a concentrated solution.So not one pointedness but to mean full,gathered.Samatha is taught as preparatory before vipassana is taken up-again however a practice.

Now in the context of what K taught is there samatha meditation? Does it precede vipassana? It is interesting to look into this because I think K's teaching has this.

Now observation as K pointed out is awareness of our responses from moment to moment without any past interference.And in this observation there is no thought acting on thought.That is there is no one central thought dominating another thought as control & so on.So as there is no conflict between thought & thought there is calmness.And the energy wasted in conflict is now gathered.So there is gathering of energy in this observation as well as calmness as thought is not battling thought anymore.Now this is samatha! And in this state the content of consciousness is seen & if you look or remain with it totally then there is insight which is vipassana. So there is samatha meditation preceding vipassana-althought it is one unitaty movement.

I thought of communicating this because this is an issue among Buddhists which is widely misinterpreted & practiced.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 24 Nov 2010 #18
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
And in this observation there is no thought acting on thought.

Sorry , This writer has to be back to answer your query:

How do you observe? Observe implies there is "me" and the "observed(you)"

Is it not? otherwise there is no "observation" (by its definition)

"me" and "you" can be ""one" if there is no "physical diffewrence/distanece", is it not?

Physical distance exists as long as "mind" exists

"Mind" exists as long as "space and time" exists

"Space and Time" exists as long as "Universe" exists

"Observation" exists as long as "Universe" exists

"Me" and "You" are one if "Mind" does not exists!

"Observer is the observed" if "Universe" does not exists

"Universe" does not exists if "Kundalini" opens her "hood"

Regards
Sunyata

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 24 Nov 2010 #19
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sanyata - you are making a boo-boo!

It is not true that if there is observation there must be an observer. I do not wish to make K an authority here, but he says that there can be 'observation without the observer,' the observer being the past. Can we observe without judging from the accumulation of past observations? That is the question. You are saying it is impossible - or else you are taking the word 'observer' in a much broader sense, which is fine but you must explain how you are using it.

I will put your point as a question in a way that may throw a little more light:

In direct observation of 'what is,' without involving the past, what is the agent of that observation? What is observing?

Let us say that the object of the observation is the movement of mind. Mind is being looked at. What is looking at mind? Is it not clear that mind is observing its own motion? Then there is no division. It is only when I say 'I am observing my mind' that I have introduced a division, imagining a separation between subject and object.

I don't know about Kundalini opening her hood. You make it sound like a sports utility vehicle.

. . . with much respect

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Wed, 24 Nov 2010 #20
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
So as there is no conflict between thought & thought there is calmness.

No, no, no Kapila, you are addressing an ideal state whereas K addresses 'what is,' which is conflict between thought and thought. As long as there is conflict we must observe that conflict, but we do not observe that conflict. We shy away from it at all cost because it brings distress. We do not observe the internal conflict from some sort of disassociative state brought about by self-hypnosis in a darkened room. Observation of the conflict within us necessarily entails entering into and experiencing it, which is very painful, not calming at all.

Nevertheless, there is a steadfastness that is demanded in order to endure looking into the face of one's own private hell without flinching, that can be taken as calmness, but is fearlessness. And in that fearlessness one discovers that actually there is nothing to fear. Calm comes about through that but it is not brought abpout by any preparatory act or practice, as advocated by Buddhism. Calm is the effect brought about by understanding.

"You cannot invite the breeze, but you must leave open the window."

"You can do nothing, but that doesn't mean doing nothing."

Putting one's house in order cannot be done sitting cross-legged on the kitchen floor.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 25 Nov 2010 #21
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
Putting one's house in order cannot be done sitting cross-legged on the kitchen floor.

Dear Paul,

It can be done in one's kitchen, It can be done one's living roon, It can be done in one's bed room or it it can be done in "Himalayan caves"!

It is importantant that's one's "heart/mind" is "clean"!

K's messagage as one understand/sensed here is:

One has no opinion about anything, one is "not looking" for anything, one has no knowledge (Vedantam, end of knowledge), One "takes it as it comes", One is "innocent". Having fulfilled all these qualities, one is awaiting the "new"

Regards
Sunyata

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 25 Nov 2010 #22
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
you are addressing an ideal state

I was not addressing an ideal state. I was just describing what is inherent in observation without a division.If I have a fear & as long as I keep saying I must not be afraid, I must behave in this manner & so on then I am battling the fear & therefore there is a division & thus conflict.Now when there is the realization that fear cannot be ended by suppression then the battle with it ends.Then there is the observation of that fear without battling it.The ending of this battling brings calm.It is the ending of thought trying to control thought & resolve suffering.Then the mind is observing 'what is' without opposing it,without analyzing it. In this observation there is gathering of energy because the energy wasted in thought battling thought has ended.

This is not a practice or a time process or a preparatory act but an inherent aspect of inquiry as the mind understands the futility of will in understanding human suffering.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 25 Nov 2010 #23
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

sunyata sunyata wrote:
How do you observe? Observe implies there is "me"

No. Without the me. Otherwise there is a division. It is the act of a mirror reflecting a flowing river-the consciousness.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Thu, 25 Nov 2010 #24
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Kapila Kulasinghe wrote:
It is the act of a mirror reflecting a flowing river-the consciousness.

Dear Kapila,

"Sun" is mirrored" in various "Lakes". The "mirror" is the "universe"

Now the question is whether one casn remove this "mirror"?

Regards
Sunyata

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 26 Nov 2010 #25
Thumb_stringio Mina Martini Finland 749 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dear Sunyata and Sudhir,

sunyata sunyata wrote:
Keep one's house clean and keep the door "open"

Sudhir:Our consciousness with its contents is the house. What would be the meaning of cleaning here ? Which contents need cleaning and in what manner ?

mina: Yes, consciousness with its contents (which is of course one and the same thing)is the house. To keep it clean here means that nothing is accumulucated in it, nothing at all, so one does NOT live from the content/consciousness. And since an empty mind is not necessarily one with 'the other', it can only be kept empty and the door open (well, the emptiness is the open door too) for the 'other' to come and go as it will.

This post was last updated by Mina Martini (account deleted) Sat, 27 Nov 2010.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 26 Nov 2010 #26
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Mina Martini wrote:
mina: Yes, consciousness with its contents (which is of course one and the same thing)is the house. To keep it clean here means that nothing is accumulucated in it, nothing at all, so one does live from the content/consciousness. And since an empty mind is not necessarily one with 'the other', it can only be kept empty and the door open (well, the emptiness is the open door too) for the 'other' to come and go as it will.

Extremely "well" said! An "innocent mind" can never be "hurt" (as it does not have a cross reference) and as you said the "other" can go at it at will with out an effect on the "innocent"

A very deep analysis by Mina! Thanks
Sunyata

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 26 Nov 2010 #27
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

sunyata sunyata wrote:
An "innocent mind" can never be "hurt"

I am not disagreeing with you, Sunyata, but what you have said raises a query, the answer to which is not obvious: If we are born with innocent minds, how does a child get hurt?

How, from innocence, do we enter the field of suffering? After all, it is the common predicament, to be troubled. So, how can hurt act on innocence or how else do we become as we are?

I think it is an interesting inquiry.

Why does not the hurt pass through? Why do we accept pressure? Is this too a facet of innocence? Why do we accept hurt? How does it begin? Is innocence such a delicate thing, and if it is, is it sustainable?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Fri, 26 Nov 2010 #28
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Mina,

"Yes, consciousness with its contents . . . is the house. To keep it clean here means that nothing is accumulated in it, nothing at all, so one does live from the content/consciousness."

Good post, Mina. It might be instructive to hear what, to you, makes up consciousness. Consciousness to most of us is self-consciousness. Take away the Self and what remains? The Self, and how everything we do affects the Self, is all we 'think' about, actually.

max

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 27 Nov 2010 #29
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
If we are born with innocent minds, how does a child get hurt?

Dear Paul,

First things first. We follow "Dharma" (even though it is 1/4 in this Yuga). We follow Nature (apple falls down and we don't try to move it up)
We don't physically abuse another "being" (Every being has same fundamental/inherent right as you and me).
What this writer interpreting is that "hurt" is associated with being attacked with one's psychological structure. This structure is an accumulated phenomenon. When the Eagle flies, it does not leave a mark as K said. It implies that one does not register an "experience".

When one does not follow "Dharma", then the child's hurt will become a "Curse" for the one who perpetraded the "Hurt". When the "Hurt" becomes unbearable then "God" will reincarnate to reestablish complete "Dharma"
(1 out of 1). Good and bad are always in check. When bad gets more, the "good" starts to re-establish. This is the "LAW OF THE UNIVERSE" and every body is bound by this "LAW".

Regards
Sunyata

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Sat, 27 Nov 2010 #30
Thumb_1507053_1_ Jayaraj Kapila Kulasinghe Sri Lanka 1208 posts in this forum Offline

sunyata sunyata wrote:
"Sun" is mirrored" in various "Lakes". The "mirror" is the "universe"

Rhetoric has no meaning to me in my inquiry.I am very simple. To me the most important is the closest.That is 'what is.' Observation is the mirror in which 'what is' is reflected,seen.

Without observing 'what is' far is just a concoction of imagination & has no validity whatsoever.

Sign in to recommend
Back to Top
Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 153 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)