Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is Meditation?


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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #1
Thumb_deleted_user_med David Loucks United States 157 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Is meditation something you do everyday at a certain time for a certain amount of time? Is it an exercise with a particular goal in mind? Can anyone else teach you to meditate? Or is meditation something much more as it was for K? An ongoing process, a constant awareness, moment by moment, of one in relationship to everything and everyone that comes into one's life?

The Meditative Mind

If you say: "I will begin today to control my thoughts, to sit quietly in the meditative posture, to breathe regularly" - then you are caught in the tricks with which one deceives oneself. Meditation is not a matter of being absorbed in some grandiose idea or image: that only quietens one for the moment, as a child absorbed by a toy is for the time being quiet. But as soon as the toy ceases to be of interest, the restlessness and the mischief begin again. Meditation is not the pursuit of an invisible path leading to some imagined bliss. The meditative mind is seeing watching, listening, without the word, without comment, without opinion - attentive to the movement of life in all its relationships throughout the day. And at night, when the whole organism is at rest, the meditative mind has no dreams for it has been awake all day. It is only the indolent who have dreams; only the half-asleep who need the intimation of their own states. But as the mind watches, listens to the movement of life, the outer and the inner, to such a mind comes a silence that is not put together by thought.

The Only Revolution India Part 3

If you set out to meditate is will not be meditation.

Page 14 Shambala Pocket Classics MEDITATIONS

Meditation is not a means to an end. It is both the means and the end.

Page 15

Meditation has no beginning and no end, in it there is no achievement and no failure, no gathering and no renunciation; it is a movement without finality and so beyond and above time and space. The experiencing of it is the denying of it, for the experiencer is bound to time and space, memory and recognition. The foundation for true memitiation is that passive awareness which is the total freedom from authority and ambition, envy and fear. Meditation has no meaning, no significance whatsoever without this freedom, without self-knowing; as long as there's choice ther's no self-knowing. Choice implies conflict which prevents the understanding of what is. Wandering off into some fancy, into some romantic beliefs, is not meditation; the brain must strip itself of every myth, illusion and security and face the reality of their falseness. There's no distraction; everything is in the movement of meditation.

Page 76 and 77

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #2
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

David Loucks wrote:
Or is meditation something much more as it was for K? An ongoing process, a constant awareness, moment by moment, of one in relationship to everything and everyone that comes into one's life?

Yes - a contemplative life.

Staying with fear as it arises, embracing it, understanding it. Watching one's critical thoughts about others, and seeing that they are there because of the un-faced realization that 'I' am no different deep-down. Observing the total disorder functioning in humanity and understanding that I AM that disorder - the conflict that exists is ME.

There is no escape in this manner of meditation - no pleasure - no flying off to some imagined 'higher plane' for a bit of respite from the troubled world of humanity's despair, to a place where 'I' feel really good about 'me' for a while.

Rather it is a total owning of the human despair, and the finding out of what actually comes about as understanding of the wholeness of the human condition manifests, and there is just no longer any choice. And there can be no pre-emption of what that is. One can only take the plunge - go there and find out.

Meditation: deep pondering.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Thu, 22 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #3
Thumb_21072008016 sunil jain India 29 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Rather it is a total owning of the human despair, and the finding out of what actually comes about as understanding of the wholeness of the human condition manifests, and there is just no longer any choice.

When looking inside, I find disturbing thoughts and emotions related to my life. Importance of watching and understanding my fears and sorrows I understand. But when you ask to own up total human despair, I do not understand it. All the thoughts coming to my mind about humanity,are they not escape from observing my thoughts of my life choicelessly ? Please show connection.

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #4
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

sunil jain wrote:
All the thoughts coming to my mind about humanity,are they not escape from observing my thoughts of my life choicelessly ? Please show connection.

Sunil - the connection is that I am/you are humanity. There is no moving away from that. It is a fact - like it or not.

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #5
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

One can sit and navel-gaze about one's 'individual' problems until the cows come home. But unless one is embracing the wholeness of humanity, and the mess we are all in together, and the responsibility for such - meditation is nothing more than a selfish and futile temporary escape from what is.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Thu, 22 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #6
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

sunil jain wrote:
Please show connection.

"We should go from the particular to the general and from the general (level) to the universal", the last part belongs to K.

See if you can connect.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #7
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
"We should go from the particular to the general and from the general to the universal"

Yes - that is one way in which K expressed the need to move away from the selfish wish to make a 'better' self - or to heal the self - through meditation.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Thu, 22 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #8
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
But unless one is embracing the wholeness of humanity, and the mess we are all in together, and the responsibility for such - meditation is nothing more than a selfish and futile temporary escape from what is.

Yes Patricia,responsability,and one might add that all escapes are essentially the same,a denial of the fact of said responsibility.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #9
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
'I' am no different deep-down. Observing the total disorder functioning in humanity and understanding that I AM that disorder - the conflict that exists is ME.

Excellent! Thank you!

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #10
Thumb_21072008016 sunil jain India 29 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
the connection is that I am/you are humanity. There is no moving away from that. It is a fact - like it or not.

I will like it when it is fact for me. What I can do to make it a fact for me ? Where I am slipping or what I am missing ?

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #11
Thumb_21072008016 sunil jain India 29 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
But unless one is embracing the wholeness of humanity

If I ask how then you might reply there is no 'how'. Then what is the way for this understanding to come ?

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #12
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

sunil jain wrote:

Patricia Hemingway wrote: But unless one is embracing the wholeness of humanity

If I ask how then you might reply there is no 'how'. Then what is the way for this understanding to come ?

Hi Sunil,

In what state might it become a possibility to 'embrace the wholeness of humanity?'

It is easy to do so from the brain! Anyone can 'think' themself into such a state. Of course it may be supposed that this would be a delusion.

I was at a dialogue where a participant asked us to 'stay with our nothingness.' It is not so hard to visualise such a state and to feel an emotion about it, but this is a million miles from actually being nothing. And it is only from nothingness that such an embrace of humanity would be possible. But we are filled with somethingness!

It is very easy to say 'I am the world', but K would have called this parroting his words. My intellect appreciates the beauty of K's statement and from that intellectual appreciation of the beauty I sometimes notice that imagination runs away with the idea that I have understood it. This is how I notice that a deception is taking place.

K says that the whole being must get it, thoroughly and deeply in such a way that a transformation of being occurs. So, what is stopping us from getting it at that level? What is stopping it? What is stopping the understanding (not merely intellectual) from coming?

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Thu, 22 Jul 2010.

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #13
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
So, what is stopping us from getting it at that level?

Desire rooted in becoming something other than you ARE,perhaps?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Thu, 22 Jul 2010 #14
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

sunil jain wrote:
What I can do to make it a fact for me ?

Let go of your doing,observe yourself as you are?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Fri, 23 Jul 2010 #15
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

sunil jain wrote:
If I ask how then you might reply there is no 'how'. Then what is the way for this understanding to come ?

Yes - there is no how. When the brain is conditioned to see itself as 'precious individual' - unless that conditioning is understood and negated, there is no embracing the wholeness of humanity.

The truth of anything will not be seen while conditioning, psychological thought and opinion stand in the way of truth manifesting. Simple as that.

Observation can clarify how the self - the movement of the self (which is not personal) - operates. Negation closes down some of its escapes.

But psychological thought will fight like a wildcat to stay in control, if deeply and seriously challenged - even to the point of bringing on physical illness. (As K found out)

So what we are talking about - what K spoke of - is not some nice easy escape from mankind's disorders.

The physical body has been ruled for thousands of years by psychological control. Freeing the natural intelligence of the physical body to the point where it can act independently, after all those accumulated years of psychological destruction? - well, just understand the immensity of what we are looking at here. And then you will understand why K gave no simple "how" to do it.

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Fri, 23 Jul 2010 #16
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
It is very easy to say 'I am the world', but K would have called this parroting his words. My intellect appreciates the beauty of K's statement and from that intellectual appreciation of the beauty I sometimes notice that imagination runs away with the idea that I have understood it. This is how I notice that a deception is taking place.

Paul - Yes - imagination is the enemy to attention and understanding.

Paul Davidson wrote:
K says that the whole being must get it, thoroughly and deeply in such a way that a transformation of being occurs. So, what is stopping us from getting it at that level? What is stopping it? What is stopping the understanding (not merely intellectual) from coming?

Isn't it that deep down we are conditioned to believe in the importance of our own 'individuality'? Which means that psychological thought is in control, and what is more - intends to stay in control.

So it is the desire to keep our individuality, and change our'selves' while remaining individuals (but more important individuals because we will be 'transformed' ones!) - rather than ENDING individuality - ie: ending the self?

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Fri, 23 Jul 2010 #17
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
So it is the desire to keep our individuality, and change our'selves' while remaining individuals (but more important individuals because we will be 'transformed' ones!) - rather than ENDING individuality - ie: ending the self?

Very well said,Thank you Patricia.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Fri, 23 Jul 2010 #18
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:
Desire rooted in becoming something other than you ARE,perhaps?

Hi Rick,

So, are you saying that the desire not to be divided is the main block? It could be a block if the desire is conditioned on maintaining myself in any form at all. Any resistance to total transformation . . . and our desires are just such petty-resistances! As P said, we wish to take our selves with us, to maintain the continuity of self, but in a more comfortable form, changed somewhat. Our desires remain petty and conditioned. We want to strike a bargain. There is no sincerity.

I was responding to Sunil's question, how can we be 'embracing the whole of humanity'.

In regard to the 'whole of humanity' I am divided both within my state of being and without, internally and externally. In this chronic state of division I am only capable of embracing anything through my self-love. This state of inner and outer division must change. I can see that clearly. Love of self must go. Is this a desire for change, in the sway you say?

Rather than to talk of the desire to change, how can I express this perceived necessity to have an ordered mind, as K has so often put it? How can there be a movement from chaos to cosmos, in the sense of order?

And how to understand the difference between the desire to change and the perception of the need for change? I am not so sure that the use of the word 'desire', in this particular case, should be casually dismissed, although one could find another word. But, the sense of the thing is what is important; the urge to be out of this wretched state. And, is that urge all-encompassing, or merely partial, seen from a certain limited desire, a small 'I'?

K says it is nevessary to put one's whole self into it but the problem for me is that I am not 'whole.' I am fragmented and so I start from the fragment, the partial.

K talked of the need to touch the fact with some emotion, as the prerequisite for true action. There has to be an inner movement, or motive-force (motivation), a strong state of feeling, a perceived urgency, a strong urge to be rid of it. Without this there can be no seriousness and an insufficiency of energy.

But is not the desire to be sane, whole, healthy, integrated, ordered, necessary? Not the small desires to change this or that but the urge to be whole, whatever the cost? Patricia is right to say that we want to change but remain the same, as Jesus was (apols) to stress that a rich man cannot pass through the eye of a needle. I have to be prepared to drop all my 'riches' (accumulation). I cannot will to be nothing but I can perceive the need to be willing to surrender anything and everything, in the process of transformation. And this is what is such a painful realisation for me.

As long as the need or desire in me to hold on to anything, be it relationship, possession, memory or opinion (or even 'body') is present in any strength, how can I embrace the wholeness?

It seems that it is not the desire to change that is wrong per se, but the desire to take something of 'mine' with 'me'.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 23 Jul 2010 #19
Thumb_21072008016 sunil jain India 29 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:
My intellect appreciates the beauty of K's statement and from that intellectual appreciation of the beauty I sometimes notice that imagination runs away with the idea that I have understood it. This is how I notice that a deception is taking place.

Hi Paul

Imagination run away with idea of having understood and also can create decptive state of emptiness. Then deception take very deep roots. Very difficult to negate it then.

Paul Davidson wrote:
K says that the whole being must get it, thoroughly and deeply in such a way that a transformation of being occurs. So, what is stopping us from getting it at that level? What is stopping it? What is stopping the understanding (not merely intellectual) from coming?

I feel the first step is to clearly understand I am living in deception. And next not to search/seek the transformation intellectually as that open the way for imagination to bring in deception. And then what ? Continue to observe 'what is' ? You please say more about this.

love2 travel in real life

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Fri, 23 Jul 2010 #20
Thumb_21072008016 sunil jain India 29 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
The truth of anything will not be seen while conditioning, psychological thought and opinion stand in the way of truth manifesting. Simple as that.

In simple words does it mean that I am unable to look at 'what is' as long as psychological thoughts are interfering with looking ? Truth is 'what is' or something else ?

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Observation can clarify how the self - the movement of the self (which is not personal) - operates. Negation closes down some of its escapes.

I want to understand this clearly. What does it mean when you say that movement of self is not personal ? Self is active in me to give me security and look after my interests. Then how it is not personal ?

By negation I understand seeing and letting go. Which escapes remain present with this seeing and letting go ?

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
But psychological thought will fight like a wildcat to stay in control, if deeply and seriously challenged - even to the point of bringing on physical illness. (As K found out)
So what we are talking about - what K spoke of - is not some nice easy escape from mankind's disorders

From here on what you say is complicated and confusing. The feeling for mankind's disorder is not understood and is not coming. Please take it from some other angle if possible.

PS- In some other thread you said that right diet is very important in this journey. Please talk about that a bit more.

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Fri, 23 Jul 2010 #21
Thumb_21072008016 sunil jain India 29 posts in this forum Offline

RICK LEIN wrote:
sunil jain wrote:
What I can do to make it a fact for me ?

Let go of your doing,observe yourself as you are?

Second part of your statement is clear but what 'let go of your doing' mean ?

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Fri, 23 Jul 2010 #22
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

sunil jain wrote:
I feel the first step is to clearly understand I am living in deception. And next not to search/seek the transformation intellectually as that open the way for imagination to bring in deception. And then what ? Continue to observe 'what is' ? You please say more about this.

Hi Sunil,

What would it mean 'to clearly understand self-deception?' Where is the understanding centred? And, depending on where it is centred, what is the quality and depth of this understanding?

For insrance, I may have the thing explained to me in detail and accept the logic of it, in which case I know all about it, but this knowledge is at one level, within the intellect.

What does the heart know and understand? Do I feel the pain of every act of self-deception, as it happens? Has my heart understood the good and the bad of it? Have I observed the truth of it with my heart? Do my heart and my mentation connect? Do they speak the same language? And then there is my body, my movements, postures and poses, then there is my instinctive perception. Then my sexual urge. How can the whole of myself understand this, as one, when I am divided?

This is who I am. I am here, now, like this. The parts of me, the various mental functions, throw up a combined show, a matrix which I call my reality. But it is all constructed. This is why observation is so vital to me. I have to see through the matrix, behind the mask.

How can I develop the acute receptivity and sensibility to penetrate the depth of these processes? We are not born with such skills and the potential we were born with from which such skills in self-observation might be developed, have been dulled by decades of conditioning and bad habits. I have become insensitive. Does not it demand a certain seriousness and sincerity with myself before I can begin to observe 'what is'? Am I really concerned with this or is my concern casual and will quickly fade? How can I stay awake to it?

And lastly, is there something I can do right now?

But, Sunil, Just take any one of these so many questions and ponder it seriously without distraction, feeling as much as thinking, and the receptivity will grow, the real conscience (not that which has been acquired from society) will grow. The heart will begin to purify itself. The knowledge of a fact has to be grasped by the heart before understanding comes and the heart is interested in the good of a thing, not in the logic of it. And only from such holistic understanding comes change in being.

Pondering on such things, feeling as well as thinking, must be connected with our real relationship to the world. I have to watch myself, in action, and note where I fall into deception in order to develop the taste of conscience. It is all very concrete, not abstract.

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

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Fri, 23 Jul 2010 #23
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Davidson wrote:
It seems that it is not the desire to change that is wrong per se, but the desire to take something of 'mine' with 'me'.

Hi Paul,how was the vacation? One can only ask what is the focus of the desire to change,it is still the me,the you,so again we are talking about refinement of conditioning,a new improved me,and so on.Desire is at the root of illusion paul. it is an avoidance of what is,it speaks to becoming ect. ect.

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sat, 24 Jul 2010 #24
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

sunil jain wrote:
What does it mean when you say that movement of self is not personal ? Self is active in me to give me security and look after my interests. Then how it is not personal ?

Isn't 'self' acting in exactly the same manner in everyone else also?

Therefore it is a general movement of the self - not a personal/individual one. It is common to all. Makes it a lot less 'desirable' at least! :)

Seriously - don't we value 'self' because we believe it to be unique to 'ME'?

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Sat, 24 Jul 2010 #25
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

sunil jain wrote:
PS- In some other thread you said that right diet is very important in this journey. Please talk about that a bit more.

This really is something that one has to work out for oneself.

But there is no doubt that an austere, pure vegetable/fruit diet does not feed (any further) psychological thought.

Research indicates that meat-eating promotes aggression. It certainly de-sensitizes the body, and the mind, because one shuts out the suffering and fear of the sentient creatures bred to feed this human desire. The human body does not require meat to live a healthy life - in fact evidence suggests that most disease is the direct result of meat ingestion.

Alcohol damages the brain and body, as do drugs.

So really - it is just common sense and constant observation about the effect of what is ingested. (For example - although a long-time vegetarian, I occasionally ate cheese. I noticed that this would be followed by dreaming at night - so it seemed that cheese and dairy products sparked psychological imagination, which the brain then had to try to put in order during sleep. No more dairy products - no more dreams. Now we live a vegan life, and are much healthier for it in every way)

But there is no point in listening to another about these matters - the only thing that makes any sense is to go into it oneself and find out first-hand. As with everything else.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Sat, 24 Jul 2010.

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Sat, 24 Jul 2010 #26
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Excellent reply from you again. i understood what is wrong with my diet. you see i am so much conditioned to Dairy products mainly curd and i thought i can live anywhere if i can get it. I looked in to a recipe book written by JK' cook (not a recipe book alone ) where i understood even JK don't even take milk, instead Tulasi water in the morning( Ocimum sanctum - botanical name if i remember correct). thanks a lot.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Sat, 24 Jul 2010 #27
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
dairy products sparked psychological imagination

Here before retiring to bed, people drink milk to get a good sleep.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Sat, 24 Jul 2010 #28
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Here before retiring to bed, people drink milk to get a good sleep.

What's the bet that they dream the night away?

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Sat, 24 Jul 2010 #29
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
What's the bet that they dream the night away?

again a psychological conditioning or not, i don't know. i get a good sleep but i also read JK book:)
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Sat, 24 Jul 2010 #30
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

sunil jain wrote:
but what 'let go of your doing' mean ?

Hi Sunil, Well doing implies the exertion of will towards a desired result,does it not? It also implies a seeking after something other than "What is",does it not,hence Krishnamurti's use of the term "Choiceless Awareness".

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