Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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"we are caught by the world with all its misery." Krishnamurti


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Mon, 23 Dec 2019 #1
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Dialogue 2 Brockwood Park, England - 05 October 1984
Mary Zimbalist: Sir, there is a subject you have talked about so many, many times but it keeps coming back and back in people's questions and pre-occupations, and that is the subject of fear. Do you want to talk about that?

Krishnamurti: It is a rather complicated subject. It really requires a great deal of enquiry because it is so subtle, so varied and so abstract. And also it is actual too, though we make it into an abstraction. The actuality of fear and the idea of fear, which is the abstraction of fear into an idea. So we must be very clear what we are talking about. The abstraction as an idea of fear, or the actuality of fear. You and I sitting, and all of us sitting here, at this present moment we are not afraid. There is no sense of apprehension, or danger. At this instant there is no fear.

So fear is both an abstraction, as an idea, as a word, and also the fact. First of all let's deal with these two. Why do we generally make an abstraction of things? Why do we see something actual and then turn it into an idea? Is it because the idea is easier to pursue? Or the ideal is our conditioning? Or we are educated to ideas, or in ideas, not educated to deal with facts? Why is this? Why is it that human beings throughout the world deal with abstractions - what should be, what must be, what will happen, and so on, the whole world of ideation and the ideologies, whether it be the communist ideology based on Marx and Lenin, or the capitalists ideas of so-called free enterprise and so on, or the whole world of religious concepts, beliefs, ideas, and the theologians working these ideas out. Why is it that ideas, ideals, have become so extraordinarily important? From the ancient Greeks, even before the Greeks and so on, ideas prevailed. And even now ideas, ideals, separate man and they bring wars, all kinds. Why do the brains of human beings operate this way? Is it because they cannot deal with facts directly and so escape subtly into ideations? If one sees ideas are really very divisive factors, they bring friction, they divide communities, nations, sects, religions, and so on, which is, ideas, beliefs, faith, all that is based on thought. And facts, what are facts? What exactly is a fact, not an opinion about fact, or opinion made into facts.

MZ: What is the fact of fear, sir?

K: I am coming to that. First we must establish the distinction between the idea of fear, the abstraction as the word fear, and the actual fear. The actual fear is the fact, not the abstraction of it. If one can move away from the abstraction then we can deal with fact. But if they are both running parallel all the time then there is a conflict between the two. That is, the idea, the ideology dominating the fact and the fact sometimes dominating the idea.

MZ: Most people would say that the fact of fear is the very painful emotion of fear.

K: Now let us look at that, not the idea of fear. So let us look at the fact - that is what I am coming to - the fact of actual fear, and to remain with that fact, which requires a great deal of inward discipline.

MZ: Can you describe what remaining with the fact of fear actually is?

K: It is like holding a jewel, an intricate pattern by an artist, who has brought this extraordinary jewel. You look at it, you don't condemn it, you don't say, 'How beautiful' and run away with words, but you are looking at this extraordinary thing put together by hand, by cunning fingers and the brain that has brought this. You are watching it, you are looking at it. Turn it round, look at the various sides, the back and the front and the side, and you never let it go.

MZ: Do you mean that you just feel it very acutely, very sensitively, with great care.

K: With care, that is what happens.

MZ: But you feel it because it is an emotion.

K: Of course. You have the feeling of beauty, the feeling of the intricate pattern, and the sparkle, the brightness, and the sparkle of the jewels and so on. So can we deal with the fact of fear and look at it that way, not escape, not say, 'Well I don't like fear', get nervous, apprehensive and suppress it, or control it, or deny it, or move it into another field. If we can do all that, just remain with that fear. So fear then becomes an actual fact, which is there, whether you are conscious of it or not, whether you have hidden it very, very deeply, it is still there.

So then we can ask very carefully and hesitantly, what is this fear? Why human beings, after this tremendous evolution, still live with fear? Is it something that can be, like a surgeon, operated upon and removed, like a disease, like cancer, or any other dreadful, painful disease? Is it something that can be operated upon? Which means there is an entity who can operate upon it, but that very entity is an abstraction of trying to do something about fear, that entity is unreal. What is factual is fear. And this requires very careful attention not to be caught in this abstraction of the one, who says, 'I am observing fear', or one who says, 'I must put away fear, or control fear', and so on. It is we are watching fear, not who is watching. The one who watches is also the outcome of fear. If this is clear, that the observer, to go back to our old saying, the observer is the observed, the thinker is the thought, the doer is the entity who is doing, there is no division. And so if there is no division, which is an extraordinary fact to realise, a fact, not an idea I must realise, it is an extraordinary fact that there is no division between the observer and the observed, and therefore there is no conflict. Conflict exists when there is the observer different from the observed, which is what most of us do and therefore live with perpetual conflict. That is another matter.

So can we look at that fear, and in the very act of looking, watching fear, one begins to discover the origin of fear, the beginning, what is the causation of fear. Because the very fact of looking at it is to see how it came about, not analyse fear because the analyser is the analysed. Not analyse, dissect fear but that very close, delicate watching reveals the content of fear, the content being the origin, the beginning, the causation because where there is a cause there is an end. Right? The cause can never be different from the result. So the discovery, or in the observation, in the watching, the causation is revealed.

MZ: Sir, the causation that you are speaking of is presumably not an individual fear, a particular fear? You are speaking of the causation of fear itself.

K: Fear itself, not the various forms of fear. See how we break up fear.

MZ: Yes.

K: That's part of our tradition, to bring about a fragmentation of fear, therefore be concerned only with one type of fear, not the whole tree of fear; not a particular branch, or a particular leaf of fear but the whole nature, the structure, the quality of fear. And in observing that very closely, watching it, in the very watching there is the revelation of the causation - not you analyse to find out the cause but the very watching is showing the causation, which is time and thought. Of course. That is simple when you put it that way. Everybody would accept it is time and thought. If there was no time and thought there would be no fear.

MZ: Well, could you enlarge a little bit on that because most people think that there is something. That there is - how can I put it - they don't see that there is no future, they think 'I am afraid now' from a cause, they don't see the factor of time involved.

K: I think it is fairly simple. If there was no time, or if there was no saying, 'I am afraid because I have done something in the past,' or I have had pain in the past, or somebody has hurt me, and I don't want to be hurt anymore - all that is the past, the background, which is time. And the future, that is, I am this now, I will die. Or I might lose my job, or my wife will be angry with me and so on. So there is this past and the future, and we are caught in between the two. That is, the past has its relationship with the future, the future is not something separate from the past, it is a movement of modification of the past to the future, to tomorrow. So that is time: this movement of the past, which is the past as I have been, and the future, I will be, which is this constant becoming. And that too is another complex problem which we won't touch for the moment. That may be the causation of fear, the becoming.

So time is a factor, is a basic factor of fear. There is no question about it. I have a job now, I have money now, I have a shelter over my head, but tomorrow or many hundred tomorrows might deprive me of all that, some accident, some fire, some lack of insurance and so on, as it has happened in this house. All that is a time factor. Not the ending of time, but see the factor that fear is part of time, not say, 'Can I end time?' - that would be a silly question. Sorry to use the word 'silly'. And also thought is a factor of fear. Thought. I have been, I am but I may not. The factor of thought, thought is limited, which is another matter. Thought is limited because it is based on knowledge, knowledge is always accumulative and that which is being added to is always limited, so knowledge is limited, so thought is limited, because thought is based on knowledge, memory and so on.

So thought and time are the central factors of fear. Thought is not separate from time. They are one, they are not divorced, they are not separate. So these are the facts. This is the causation of fear. Now that is a fact, not an idea, not an abstraction, that thought and time is the cause of fear, not are. It is singular.

So a man then asks: how do I stop time and thought? Because his intention, his desire, his longing, is to be free from fear. And so he is caught in his own desire to be free but he is not watching very carefully the causation. When you are watching very carefully without any movement watching implies a state of the brain in which there is no movement, it is like watching a bird. And if you watch the bird very closely as we watched this morning that dove on the window sill, you watched all the feathers, the red eyes, the sparkle in the eyes, the beak, the shape of its head, the wings and so on, you watched very carefully, and that which you watch very carefully reveals not only the causation but the ending of the thing that you are watching. So this watching is really most extraordinarily important, not how to end thought, or can I be free from fear, or what do you mean by time, and all the complications of it, which is complex, But when we are watching fear without any abstraction, which is the actual now, and in that quality of the now, because the now contains all time, which is the present holds the past, the future and the present. So if we can listen to this very carefully, not only with the hearing of the ear, but listen to the word and go beyond the word, and see the actual nature of fear, not read about fear, but how watching becomes so extraordinarily beautiful, sensitive, alive.

All this requires an extraordinary quality of attention, because in attention there is no activity of the self. The self-interest in our life is the cause of fear. The sense of me and my concern, my happiness, my success, my failure, my achievement, I am this, I am not: this whole self-centred observation with all its expressions of fear, agonies, depression, pain, anxiety, aspiration and sorrow, all that is self-interest, whether in the name of god, in the name of prayer, in the name of faith, is self-interest. Where there is self-interest there must be fear, and all the consequences of fear. Then one asks again: is it possible to live in this world where self-interest is predominant, whether it is in the totalitarian world, with its search for power, and holding power, the capitalist world with its own power, self-interest is dominant, whether it is in the religious hierarchical catholic world or in every religious world self-interest is dominant and therefore they are perpetuating fear, though they talk about living with pacem in terris, which is peace on earth, they really don't mean it because self-interest with the desire for power, position, for its fulfilment and so on, is the factor that is destroying not only the world but destroying our own extraordinary capacity of the brain. The brain has extraordinary capacity, as is shown in the technological world, the extraordinary things they are doing. And we never apply that same immense capacity inwardly to be free of fear, to end sorrow, to know what love is, and compassion with its intelligence. We never search, explore that field, we are caught by the world with all its misery.

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Mon, 23 Dec 2019 #2
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti Quote of the Day
Group Discussion 11th April, 1948 | Mumbai, India

Question: Why did not that person see this earlier?

Krishnamurti: What are the causes that prevent your seeing the obvious things that drop away? What is the element that is required to say "I see it and it is gone". One of the factors is that I must be aware I am suffering, I am in anxiety, in a state of confusion and of fear. To recognize that transformation is essential, I must not be self-contented. There must be real discontent. It must have a quality which is not mere change.

If you see a cobra and know it to be a cobra, you have an instantaneous response. There is the bodily response to the poison and you jump. It is not out of fear that you avoid the poison; but, the understanding of the nature of the poison keeps you away from the poison. Most of us are afraid. Is not fear one of the principal causes that prevent transformation? You are afraid and therefore there is no transformation.

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Mon, 23 Dec 2019 #3
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

There is no physical fear that a lot of people talk about in the internet. As k says stepping away from the cobra is not out of so called "physical fear" but out of understanding and intelligence.
Fear is the byproduct of thought and time.
If there was no future,no tomorrow,no next minute then is there fear?

This post was last updated by One Self Mon, 23 Dec 2019.

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Tue, 24 Dec 2019 #4
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5790 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
There is no physical fear that a lot of people talk about in the internet.

All you seem to have are a lot of theories, ideas, opinions and beliefs based on your misunderstanding of what K has said.

As for your above statement you obviously have never been in combat. Instead of denying fear understand it.

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Tue, 24 Dec 2019 #5
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

" If you see a cobra and know it to be a cobra, you have an instantaneous response. There is the bodily response to the poison and you jump. It is not out of (physical)fear that you avoid the poison; but, the understanding of the nature of the poison keeps you away from the poison. Most of us are afraid. Is not fear one of the principal causes that prevent transformation? You are afraid and therefore there is no transformation." K
I suggest read the above a few times till you get it.
You (jack) are the one with duality and therefore illusions .
Lack of self-knowledg is indeed the highest form of ignorance.

This post was last updated by One Self Tue, 24 Dec 2019.

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Tue, 24 Dec 2019 #6
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5790 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
"Most of us are afraid. Is not fear one of the principal causes that prevent transformation? You are afraid and therefore there is no transformation." K

You are the one who needs to re-read what K said. We all have fear. Understand the fear don't run from it or rationalize through your rather gross misunderstanding of your frequent K quotes. It fairly clear that you don't understand what K is saying. But rather you interpret what you think he is saying and then make generalizations from your misunderstandings.

Try to avoid coming to conclusions of your own and stay with what K is saying. End of debate for me. From past experience with you I know that you are too irrational and angry to discuss anything without emotion.

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Tue, 24 Dec 2019 #7
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

"Most of us are afraid. Is not fear one of the principal causes that prevent transformation?"k
Jack:" we all have fear."
Most doesn't mean all.
What you do is justify fear and think that you are rational!
Just give up the teachings and stop insulting people with your false accusations(copy cat of Trump).

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Tue, 24 Dec 2019 #8
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Should one respond to falsehood and negative propaganda? I think that is a great question.
They try to put you down in order to put themselves up on the pedestal.
Krishnamurti tells them "you win" . He let them have their own illusion which is based on comparison . He was a unique human being with the love of humanity.
How many of us have any love for humanity ? We love our own success, our own security ,our own ideas but not love the humanity which we are a part of . Our love is partial There for not real . We live and die in illusions. That is enough for now.

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Wed, 25 Dec 2019 #9
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Should one respond to falsehood and negative propaganda? I think that is a great question.
They try to put you down in order to put themselves up on the pedestal.

Is this pedestal game also known as debate?
If I react differently in relation to whether I think Something is true/false or negative/positive then this is debate.
If I see what is being said without judgement, this is sensitivity and forgiveness.

Look, see, let go

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Wed, 25 Dec 2019 #10
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
Is this pedestal game also known as debate?

Yes ,it is argument over ideas which has no value. Dialogues are only possible among friends not among strangers online . The unknown strangers may be mentally ill or maybe are bored behind the computer or a thousand other reasons. One doesn't expect anything from an online forum such as this except information about the teachings of K.
I have said this before ,I don't write here for anyone but for oneself. And that is not out of self-interest. Since oneself is the world and the world is oneself there is no need to clarify things for anyone but oneself. This may sound self centered but it has nothing to do with the ego. The ego gets strengthened by debates and conflicts.

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Wed, 25 Dec 2019 #11
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Going back to the problem of fear. K says that why is it that humans have not solved the problem of fear over the centuries. It seems that the reason that man lives with the problem is that he has not given the problem any close attention. This lack of attention has been strengthening the ego therefore fear . I'm not trying to write an essay on fear . If I can make fear clear to myself then I might be able help others .

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Thu, 26 Dec 2019 #12
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

When we see movement in the bushes, this could provoke fear or Curiosity.

The person who runs away is the one who survives, we are their children.

The person who investigates is more open to discovery, but eventually gets eaten.

Look, see, let go

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Fri, 27 Dec 2019 #13
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti looked at fear from different angles to get more familiar with the problem of fear. The question that comes to my mind is that does one start from one's own fear or does one start from fear in general? If one sticks to his or her fear without understanding the vastness of fear then fear has to keep coming back and back.

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Fri, 27 Dec 2019 #14
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

Do we know where we are trying to go? And why we are trying to get there?
This is where to start.

Look, see, let go

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Sat, 28 Dec 2019 #15
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
Do we know where we are trying to go? And why we are trying to get there?

When the house is on fire does one ask what is my motive to stop the fire? No, one acts. Fear is destroying humanity like a fire burning the house. Humans have accepted fear and authority as a way of life. But it is actually a way of decay and destruction .

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Sat, 28 Dec 2019 #16
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

In your comparison : I am the house and fear is the fire. So I act - what do I do? Put out the fire? Get rid of the fear?

If you answer : No! No! We must understand fear!
What will be the Following question that I must ask?

Look, see, let go

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Sat, 28 Dec 2019 #17
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
If you answer : No! No! We must understand fear!
What will be the Following question that I must ask?

One wants to understand how fear comes into being and whether those causes that breed fear can be understood and therefore eradicated?
In the above Krishnamurti explains the causes of fear as time and thought. I wonder if that is understood .
Can thought (the creator of fear) solve the problem of fear that it creates?

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Sat, 28 Dec 2019 #18
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
One wants to understand how fear comes into being and whether those causes that breed fear can be understood and therefore eradicated?

I think you have rushed ahead of me.
You have answered the all important question: "why do we want to understand fear?" as in, what is the motive? And the motive seems to be : I want to eradicate fear.

Please tell me if I am Following you correctly.

Look, see, let go

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Sat, 28 Dec 2019 #19
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
And the motive seems to be : I want to eradicate fear.

Please tell me if I am Following you correctly.

Not quite, fear is the symptom of the disease like runny nose is the symptom of an infection in the respiratory .
Eradicating fear is like eradicating merely the runny nose symptom. The infection remains.

It is the causes of fear that has to be eradicated. Time is the cause of fear. In the state of timelessness there is no fear, is there?
I am not an expert but I know that using common sense one can solve most of the emotional problems of man.

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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 #20
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

Fear is bad. We Don't like it. So we want to pull it out by the roots. Which is Time - So now we want to eradicate Time and Fear.

This is bad, that is good - I Don't want this, I want that.
I think we have succeeded in describing the human condition.

Look, see, let go

This post was last updated by Douglas MacRae-Smith Sun, 29 Dec 2019.

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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 #21
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
Fear is bad. We Don't like it. So we want to pull it out by the roots. Which is Time - So now we want to eradicate Time and Fear.

This is bad, that is good - I Don't want this, I want that.

Now I have a question from you . If you don't mind tell us how long and how serious you have been into the teachings because fear and time has nothing to do with morality.
(I just want to know if we understand each other's vocabulary.)

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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 #22
Thumb_spock Douglas MacRae-Smith France 152 posts in this forum Offline

You want to decide if I am an authority or an amateur? Are you sure this is a good idea? Can we, for the moment, just say that we are 2 humans trying to explore K's teachings.

Desire and aversion may or may not be tied to morality, but that was not the subject we were discussing, nor was I trying to steer it that way. So far we have just been looking at the statements you are making about fear.

Look, see, let go

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Sun, 29 Dec 2019 #23
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Douglas MacRae-Smith wrote:
You want to decide if I am an authority or an amateur?

Absolutely there is no authority in self knowledge. I just want to know if we have the same meaning for the words that we use. If you have studied k he has a different meaning for common words for example attention to most people is concentration. Or meditation to most people is repeating mantra. Or intelligence to most people is the ability to pass examinations and become somebody. Fear according to most people is bad and is to be avoided. The list goes on and on. I don't want to fall into the trap of having different meaning for words and trying to convince each other of who is right or who is wrong.
You say so far we have been looking at the statement that I have made about fear!
In fact I have not made any new statement about fear. I am studying fear and it's causes because none of us is free from fear and time. We are stuck with fear and we need to move on. And the only way is to understand fear. Understanding is the only tool that we have and the older and rigid we get the less understanding we have.

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Mon, 30 Dec 2019 #24
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Going back to what k says about fear is that there is the actual fear and there is the idea of fear . We are apparently according to k are related to the idea of fear instead of actual fear. Maybe that is why man has not understood fear after thousands of years.

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Wed, 12 Feb 2020 #25
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
We are apparently according to k are related to the idea of fear instead of actual fear.

The idea of fear is everything we know about fear from books and K. Actual fear is the outcome of comparison. And since we are conditioned by education to compare all the time we are still "frightened human beings" who compete all the time.

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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 #26
Thumb_anigif Ken D United States 15 posts in this forum Offline

From

"In The Presence - The Memoirs of Mary Zimbalist"

Mary: Well, especially in his last few years, he had this feeling about darkness, that there was kind of…when the sun is gone, the forest, which he loved, and he felt a wonderful place to be…evil went into the forest at night. He said he would never go into a forest alone at night.

Scott: I remember something like that, that he felt there was a very strong sense of menace in a forest at night.

M: Yes. But there was also protection. I said, “Would you go in with me?” and he said, “Yes, but only if you were there.” And, for instance at Ojai, apparently he wouldn’t have gone out of the house at night alone, even to walk to Arya Vihara for instance, once it was dark.

S: Mm, hm.

M: I mean he had no occasion to go, but I asked, “What if?” and he said no he wouldn’t. It’s as though something menacing, something evil, would come with darkness, and could creep into an otherwise benign and much loved place.

S: Yes.

M: Curious, isn’t it?

S: It is very curious. It’s very curious because…well, for a lot of reasons, but here was something that had a great deal of reality for Krishnaji, but he never brought it into his teachings."

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 #27
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1585 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
Mary: Well, especially in his last few years, he had this feeling about darkness, that there was kind of…when the sun is gone, the forest, which he loved, and he felt a wonderful place to be…evil went into the forest at night. He said he would never go into a forest alone at night.

I think Mery lost her mind after k was gone. If someone new listened to the above he would say that not only k was superstitious and frighten human being but also k thought that evil was an entity outside of human mind. Where as k in his talks have said that "evil is the desire to harm another."
It was she who was afraid of dark not K(obviously).

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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 #28
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 931 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
S: It is very curious. It’s very curious because…well, for a lot of reasons, but here was something that had a great deal of reality for Krishnaji, but he never brought it into his teachings."

Thanks for posting this Ken. As Scott Forbes said, it's very curious.

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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 #29
Thumb_anigif Ken D United States 15 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
I think Mery lost her mind after k was gone.

Well, then, Scott must have lost his mind also, because he confirms what she says here in the conversation.

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

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Thu, 13 Feb 2020 #30
Thumb_anigif Ken D United States 15 posts in this forum Offline

Essential reading....all 90 chapters...

http://inthepresenceofk.org/

"Sow the seed of freedom, which is to awaken intelligence; for with that intelligence you can tackle all the problems of life." Krishnamurti

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