Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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On Relationships and Conflict


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Fri, 22 May 2020 #181
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote:
So who is watching the bumblebee?

Buzz! Buzz!

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #182
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 98 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
This uncommon decision of a "gathering of energy" is what we are calling 'choiceless-awareness', is it not?

Yes

Dan McDermott wrote:
This awareness is not a part of the 'confused mind' which is a 'dissipation' of energy? The confused mind 'works' against itself, desires and seeks change, is bound by psychological time, caught in the cycle of 'becoming', choice, etc?

Yes

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #183
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 959 posts in this forum Offline

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote:
What is 'awareness'? Do you ever wonder about it? I've been wondering about it a lot recently. On the one hand the observer is the observed but on the other hand awareness is not conflict. A chap could get confused. When you're watching something, whether it's your own conflicting thoughts or a bumblebee in the garden collecting nectar from a flower, do you ever wonder who is watching?

On reflection, I would say that in general, I haven't really ever put much energy into discovering who is watching. I'm not sure why. For me, just the observing is a big enough challenge. When you watch a bumblebee or any other living thing in the natural world in silence, it's interesting to see how close you can get to animals that would normally move away. It's almost as though they can sense there is no danger and feel relaxed about having a human being so close.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #184
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote:
It's basically the same question - without 'me', what is it that directly perceives?

To really investigate directly, "Who am I?" or "What am I?" can be very important. What happens when you look into the question?

You are asking something more, which is: When there is only perception, no perceiver and no perceived, who is it that perceives?

It is the thinking brain that separates perceiver and perceived. When there is only direct perception, thought has not yet kicked in.

Do you want to know how K answers your question?

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, Questions and Answers: On Awareness:
At the moment of experience, there is neither the observer nor the observed: there is only the experiencing. Most of us are not experiencing. We are always outside the state of experiencing and therefore we ask this question as to who is the observer, who is it that is aware? Surely such a question is a wrong question, is it not? The moment there is experiencing, there is neither the person who is aware nor the object of which he is aware. There is neither the observer nor the observed but only a state of experiencing.

Now some take K's saying it is a "wrong question" as meaning, "For god's sake don't ask that." But I find that ridiculous. No question is a bad question. Investigate any question that is important to you. The only thing wrong with this question you're asking is that there is a mistaken assumption inherent in it. The assumption is that there is a "who" when there is no separate "who." Separation is only after thought kicks in. Before thought kicks in, the question has not yet come up.

To put it another way, the known, try as it may, cannot touch the unknown.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sat, 23 May 2020.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #185
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Can the mind be aware of itself? It sure seems like we have self awareness. But to do it, the mind uses an artificial trick. It separates out the perceiving self from the perceived self. But obviously the self is both. The self is just one thing playing a game at being two. Or is the self not one thing but no thing?

We play this game constantly. It's called internal dialogue. I'm talking to myself. I'm listening to myself. But obviously it's all me. I've created an artificial split. We do this all the time. And if we become conscious of it, we've just done it again on another level: splitting out the observer of internal dialogue from the observed internal dialogue. But it's still all me.

So I see that it is the nature of thought to separate, to split this from that. And I see that that split is a lie. I am artificially dividing myself.

Can there be seeing without thought? The split game is seen, the division game. Is there no break from this self-deception, this never ending division. No pause?

Just a moment. Wait. Right there! Just before thought started up again. Nope. Gone again. Thinking.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sat, 23 May 2020.

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Sat, 23 May 2020 #186
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

krishnamurti:we ask this question as to who is the observer, who is it that is aware? Surely such a question is a wrong question, "

Aparantlly idiot is not sure that it is a wrong question because she or he is a positive thinker.

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #187
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Ebeneezer Codpiece wrote:
So where have you gone while the music is playing?

Now you're off in speculation land, about me, about a musician who loses him or herself in the music they play. Are you a musician? Has this happened to you?

(I certainly do love music as I indicated in my profile.)

How do you answer your question? I've given you my answer and understanding. If that's not helpful, fine. I wish you the best in your discoveries.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 24 May 2020.

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Sun, 24 May 2020 #188
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Social Distance wrote:
Now don't get all het up.

Not het up. But just find that speculation isn't helpful. We hear that musicians lose themselves in music. Do they? I don't know. As a listener I may lose myself in music. Or as a watcher of a movie. But that kind of loss of self is dependent on a stimulus. It may be escapism if I have problems and hide away in music, film, or whatever. Then the problems, part of what is, remain underneath the escapism.

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #189
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Social Distance wrote:
Is this anything to do with conflict? I don't understand you and you don't understand me. I experience God and you say that God is an escape from reality (I am speaking figuratively of course). Now we have broken off contact with each other and have no relationship. I don't see how awareness could have prevented this.

All you, and several others on here, seem to be doing is offering a lot of verbiage that isn't really saying anything. And to further confuse matters you change your name or label in the middle of your on going verbiage. Why not try to forget yourself a bit more and focus on saying something coherent? Try to communicate more and try to impress us with your vast knowledge less.

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #190
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Social Distance wrote:
Is this anything to do with conflict? I don't understand you and you don't understand me.

I can express my understanding. That is one thing.

Can I express someone else's understanding? If I attempt to do so, I may make assumptions that conflict with reality. Should I really be shocked if that person has a different understanding than I expected?

So conflict is already there when I assume, speculate, or expect, yes? And conflict is also there when I think I know you, and certainly if I think I know you better than you know yourself, yes?

Relationship is when we listen to each other.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 25 May 2020.

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #191
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

A wrong question inevitably leads to wrong answers , obviously...

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Mon, 25 May 2020 #192
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

What is important is to see why a question is wrong, how it has a mistaken assumption or an internal contradiction. To blindly say that you must stay away from a question because K said it was a wrong question - Don't go near that! Don't ask that! Don't even think that question! - is frankly a wrong attitude. Such an attitude takes K as authority, without investigating for yourself, without understanding all the implications of what K was saying about the question.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Mon, 25 May 2020.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #193
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
To blindly say that you must stay away from a question because K said it was a wrong question - Don't go near that! Don't ask that! Don't even think that question! - is frankly a wrong attitude. Such an attitude takes K as authority, without investigating for yourself, without understanding all the implications of what K was saying about the question.

This repeatedly happens on this forum and usually by the same poster. In the meantime we have another poster who, apparently, thinks he is being witty by changing his name. I suppose that takes the place of posting something relevant.

And by the way, "Cod Piece" is a tasteless term in any format but one especially unsuited for the K Forum. It's not only disgusting but shows him for the callow youth that he is. Trying so hard to appear erudite and experienced but so shallow.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 26 May 2020.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #194
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 959 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote: (quoting Krishnamurti)

Krishnamurti, The First and Last Freedom, Questions and Answers: On Awareness:

At the moment of experience, there is neither the observer nor the observed: there is only the experiencing. Most of us are not experiencing. We are always outside the state of experiencing and therefore we ask this question as to who is the observer, who is it that is aware? Surely such a question is a wrong question, is it not? The moment there is experiencing, there is neither the person who is aware nor the object of which he is aware. There is neither the observer nor the observed but only a state of experiencing.

I think this is a most pertinent quote. "Most of us are not experiencing". That seems to be very true. "We are always outside the state of experiencing and therefore we ask this question as to who is the observer, who is it that is aware?". This seems to say it all. As far as I can see, experimenting with observing with a silent mind is the great challenge we all face every day.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #195
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I think this is a most pertinent quote.

Yes. It is perfectly natural to ask, as did Jamie/Ebeneezer Codpiece/Social Distance/Halkidiki Olive, "Who" or "What" is aware when there is no me, when there is only pure experiencing? But K says, "The moment there is experiencing, there is neither the person who is aware nor the object of which he is aware." There is no "who" or "what" in that moment of pure experiencing. So the question has an assumption that doesn't apply. To me, K doesn't mean that it is wrong to ask, but that it contains a wrong assumption.

By the way, I found the name "Ebeneezer Codpiece" to be hilarious. It still makes me laugh.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #196
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 959 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Yes. It is perfectly natural to ask, as did Jamie/Ebeneezer Codpiece/Social Distance/Halkidiki Olive, "Who" or "What" is aware when there is no me, when there is only pure experiencing?

Oh yes, I didn't mean to imply that Jamie Olive / Ebeneezer Distance / Halkidiki Codpiece etc. was asking a "wrong question". I personally don't like this term and think almost any question is valid.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #197
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I personally don't like this term and think almost any question is valid.

Right, but K does call it a "wrong question" in the quote. And so we need to clarify what a wrong question is. I strongly agree that any question is valid. To me, this particular question is only "wrong" in having an assumption that doesn't apply.

I even think you can question K's answer if you want to. You may say that there is in fact a "who" or a "what" even though K says there is not.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 26 May 2020.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #198
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 959 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Right, but K does call it a "wrong question" in the quote.

Yes, I realised this.

idiot ? wrote:
I even think you can question K's answer if you want to. You may say that there is in fact a "who" or a "what" even though K says there is not.

The only problem here is that I don't see how we could possibly know this.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #199
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
The only problem here is that I don't see how we could possibly know this.

Yes. First of all, we have to make sure that we're not speculating, that we're really talking from what's real. But I think most everyone has had a moment where they see a bird lift off from a tree and a moment later realize that they were gone, that there was no sense of self, only the bird, tree, and sky. But in that moment of realization afterwards, there is again a self, and there is again being outside of experience, unlike the moment before. The moment when there was only the bird is inaccessible to the thinking, separating self. Sure, the memory of the bird is there, and the memory of the realization afterward is there, but there is a way that the selfless experiencing cannot be touched at all. It is evaporated.

Meanwhile, someone else could be standing nearby. To that person, there was a human silently watching a bird. To that person, there was a separate who and what. Unless, of course, that person, too, was undivided!

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 26 May 2020.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #200
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
What is important is to see why a question is wrong, how it has a mistaken assumption or an internal contradiction.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #201
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
What is important is to see why a question is wrong, how it has a mistaken assumption or an internal contradiction.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #202
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

Don't look at a question merely verbally and intellectually. A wrong question is a trap . I am not talking about the new guy. We still don't know if he is sane or insane like some in here.apart from that a wrong question is the one that implies a centre or division. Forget about k as authority, that is totally irrelevant.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #203
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

wrong
/rĂ´NG/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
1.
not correct or true; incorrect.
"that is the wrong answer"
Similar:
incorrect
mistaken
in error
erroneous
inaccurate
not accurate
inexact
not exact
imprecise
invalid
untrue
false
fallacious
wide of the mark
off target
misleading
illogical
unsound
unfounded
without foundation
faulty
flawed
off beam
bogus
phoney
out
way out
full of holes
dicey
iffy
dodgy
abroad
Opposite:
right
correct
spot on
2.
unjust, dishonest, or immoral.
"they were wrong to take the law into their own hands"
Similar:
illegal
against the law

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #204
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

We certainly know who wins the contest for most name changes per second.

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Tue, 26 May 2020 #205
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

Persephone Poot wrote:
One Self wrote:

I am not talking about the new guy. We still don't know if he is sane or insane like some in here

P: Listen, I don't even know that myself, kiddo.

Nobody knows you better than yourself . You know when you are mischievous. You know when you want something.. you know what you are and what you are not ..

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Wed, 27 May 2020 #206
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

"Who am I?" or "What am I?" are not wrong questions. They have been called natural koans because they have led many to great insight.

You asked, "When there is no me, what am I?" That is a bit different. Still important. But if there is no me, how can a me be found? So this question turns back on itself revealing an illogic.

When there is no me, the unknown is. Try as it may, thought cannot touch the unknown. But you can discover it. It is, in fact, the natural state! But we bury it with mounds of psychological mess.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 27 May 2020.

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Wed, 27 May 2020 #207
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 959 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
But I think most everyone has had a moment where they see a bird lift off from a tree and a moment later realize that they were gone, that there was no sense of self, only the bird, tree, and sky. But in that moment of realization afterwards, there is again a self, and there is again being outside of experience, unlike the moment before.

Yes, I think what you say is very true. But Krishnamurti seems to point to something else - a silent mind which is not contaminated by thought and which truly "experiences" perhaps most of the time in everyday life.

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Wed, 27 May 2020 #208
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 820 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
But Krishnamurti seems to point to something else - a silent mind which is not contaminated by thought and which truly "experiences" perhaps most of the time in everyday life.

Is it something else? And do we measure its quality by duration, by time?

In case you haven't noticed, K expresses thoughts. This means that while he may have lived a great deal with a silent mind, thought also gets reintegrated, thought rides silence, even while underneath the ground of silence is, eternally outside of time.

But very quickly we can move into speculation if this isn't a reality for us. The brain likes to imagine all kinds of wonderful things about the silent mind. What I have is my life. I can watch it. I can see all the self-centeredness in it. All the mess. I can see bird moments that evaporate since thought cannot touch them. I live my life.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 27 May 2020.

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Thu, 28 May 2020 #209
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Persephone Poot wrote:
"If you put an impossible question, your mind then has to find the answer in terms of the impossible - not what is possible." J. Krishnamurti

The above is not a properly cited quote. You have to say more than just a name. It has to be in a context; time, date, text, whatever. It's tiresome trying to educate semi-literate narcissists who dwell more on what they may think are witty names then content of their comments.

You spoke of "images" in another post. You are the one with images. You keep changing yours. There are three of you on here that have images for names instead of just a simple name like Tom, Dick or Harry. You focus more on your personal images than the content of your overly thought, rather boring comments. Are you happy now? You have pretty much destroyed this part of the forum. But then, it was pretty much in the sewer before you administered the coup de grace.

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Thu, 28 May 2020 #210
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1731 posts in this forum Offline

"If you put an impossible question, your mind then has to find the answer in terms of the impossible - not what is possible." J. Krishnamurti the impossible question. Dont listen to anybody who tels you what you have to do here. They live in the sixties and think that things are still the same!

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