Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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How does one go to the very source of thought?


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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #1
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 865 posts in this forum Offline

How does one go to the very source of thought? Krishnamurti talks about this in a short video here.

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Sat, 13 Jul 2019 #2
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5667 posts in this forum Offline

Interesting video. K spent most of the time talking about not thinking and then at the very end he says what the ground of thinking is: Memory; experience and knowledge of which thinking is the expression.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #3
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 865 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
K spent most of the time talking about not thinking and then at the very end he says what the ground of thinking is: Memory; experience and knowledge of which thinking is the expression.

Hello Jack and all. Yes, K answers the question about the source of thought at the end of the video. I think idiot? pointed out that K often answered questions by first exploring the subject with the audience before addressing the question directly at the end.

This video starts by K reading the quesuion which is:

"How does one go to the very source of thought so that there is the possibility of silencing thinking process (sic) itself?"

K says that this is a wrong question.

He then asks "What is thinking itself?"

He talks about hesitation and a time interval and how thought operates in this interval. He goes on to talk about instant response and gives the example of how you answer when asked your name. He says the instant response to this question is the result of past repetition

He goes on to explore the following:

Time interval – operation of thinking - searching - movement of thought

He asks about what happens when you are asked a question for which you have no answer and there is no searching. He talks about when you honestly say, “I don’t know”. He asks what has happened to your quality of thinking? What happens to the movement of thought?

He points out that the activity of thought comes to an end and the brain is no longer seeking. It is absolutely quiet.

"Is your brain ever in a state of not knowing?", he asks.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #4
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
"How does one go to the very source of thought so that there is the possibility of silencing thinking process (sic) itself?"

K says that this is a wrong question.

At the one minute mark, K says passionately, "It's a valid question!"

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #5
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 865 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
At the one minute mark, K says passionately, "It's a valid question!"

I've listened again and can't make out the adjective. I thought he'd said "wrong" but I could be, er, wrong. It could well be "valid" that K says here.

Anyway, whether the adjective is "wrong" or "valid" the ensuing discussion is very interesting.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #6
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
the ensuing discussion is very interesting.

It is somewhat of a rarity for K to discuss not knowing. For Zen Buddhism, it is a commonplace. To see this, you have only to search the internet for "Don't know mind."

Zen Buddhists also investigate no hesitation in response to a question such as a koan, hesitation being indicative of thought.

By contrast, skeptical psychology investigators have found that we often quickly engage the so called intuitive mind to our detriment. That is we fail to carefully think through a question and therefore quickly arrive at the wrong answer. An internet search for "error of intuition" will bring up articles about how we can unthinkingly go wrong.

Nevertheless, just as K says, not knowing is extremely important. How do we begin any inquiry? There is always a moment of not knowing. It may be quite brief before our conditioned reaction kicks in. But there is always a moment of not knowing. You have only to question anything, and not knowing is there. It is the doorway.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #7
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5667 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
At the one minute mark, K says passionately, "It's a valid question!"

No, he doesn't. The video I have has closed caption on it and I assume it's the same for everyone else. It clearly reads: "It's a wrong question".

This need not be controversial because the fact of what was said is there for anyone to read.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 14 Jul 2019.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #8
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5667 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It is the doorway.

A doorway to what? What are you seeking? What are you trying to attain? Why come to conclusions about what K is pointing out? Making conclusions are what we all have been conditioned to do. Why not just listen to what K is saying and not seek an end, a conclusion? Don't conclusions become part of memory? And when you conclude by definition that is an ending. There is no more seeing because when we come to a conclusion we believe we know.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #9
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
The video I have has closed caption on it and I assume it's the same for everyone else. It clearly reads: "It's a wrong question".

I don't have captions on. I have ears. He says "valid" and that's a fact. The person who wrote the caption you read was mistaken.

Just close your eyes and listen. It is you who have reached a mistaken conclusion by believing your eyes instead of your ears.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #10
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5667 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I don't have captions on. I have ears. He says "valid" and that's a fact. The person who wrote the caption you read was mistaken.

This has always been your problem idiot?/one self. You can't admit that you are wrong. Even when the fact is starring you right in the face. No, the person doing the captions was not wrong. K says it's a "wrong statement".

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #11
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5667 posts in this forum Offline

Yes I listened to it again. K is definitely saying "This is a wrong question" just as Sean had first said. I suggest you, idiot?/one self, listen to it again. It's fairly clear and evident what K is saying.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #12
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 865 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
I don't have captions on. I have ears. He says "valid" and that's a fact.

What is a fact for you may not be a fact for others. I don't think you can go beyond saying "I'm fairly sure he said "valid"." I've listened again and I hear a one syllable word that sounds a lot like "wrong". K's facial expression also suggests that he is saying "wrong". However, I don't think this matters at all.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #13
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
A doorway to what?

Exactly. What? To make the unknown known is to end the unknown. Not knowing is the opposite of knowing, obviously.

-

Jack Pine wrote:
What are you seeking?

Nothing.

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Jack Pine wrote:
What are you trying to attain?

Nothing.

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Jack Pine wrote:
Why come to conclusions about what K is pointing out?

K says what he says. I say what I say. Why do you make conclusions about it?

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Jack Pine wrote:
Making conclusions are what we all have been conditioned to do.

I see. That's an interesting conclusion you have come to.

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Jack Pine wrote:
Why not just listen to what K is saying and not seek an end, a conclusion?

Why want others to approach K the way you are trying to? Why not investigate K your way and let others do so their way? Why not interact and explore together rather than just condemn?

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Jack Pine wrote:
Don't conclusions become part of memory? And when you conclude by definition that is an ending. There is no more seeing because when we come to a conclusion we believe we know.

So when you see my name on a post, why bother to read it? You already have come to the conclusion that it is just conclusions.

Obviously, not knowing is the opposite of concluding. It is the doorway to something quite beyond conclusions. But how could the reactive brain see that?

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #14
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I hear a one syllable word that sounds a lot like "wrong".

It's two syllables and it's "valid." That's a fact. But you have been primed to hear it by the mistaken caption. Most people let their eyes override their ears. This, in fact, is a great example of error in perception. And you have jumped to the conclusion that the caption must be right. It isn't.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #15
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5667 posts in this forum Offline

idiot?/one self, I understand. You just can't admit when you are wrong because your whole fragile belief system will come tumbling down and you will be alone, with nothing. Which is actually a very good place to be.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5667 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It's two syllables and it's "valid." That's a fact.

No, it's not a fact. It's your opinion based on your belief that the transcriber made a mistake. Not you. But someone else made a mistake. K says "wrong". Any objective person who can hear will agree with that.

Why is it so important to you to believe he is saying the question is valid?

idiot ? wrote:
This, in fact, is a great example of error in perception. And you have jumped to the conclusion that the caption must be right. It isn't.

Your responses seem so desperate and frantic. Calm down.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #17
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

I have listened to it with good headphones over and over again. It's quite interesting because you can psychologically prime yourself with "wrong" and you will hear that. But you can do the same with "valid."

It really is "valid." Look at K's body expression. He makes two fists and shakes them and is excited to go into it. His body is also saying that it is a valid question.

When he says something is a wrong question, he tends to add, "is it not?" And he goes into why it is a wrong question, usually because it has some kind of internal contradiction.

But here he goes right into "What is thinking?" and gets right at issues in the question. He doesn't go into why the question might be wrong.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #18
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Your responses seem so desperate and frantic.

Completely false conclusions on your part, as usual. I am neither desperate nor frantic in the least. You are again making false stuff up.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #19
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1432 posts in this forum Offline

I heard "valid". (that should settle it, right?)

This may be all wrong of course

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 14 Jul 2019.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #20
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5667 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It really is "valid." Look at K's body expression. He makes two fists and shakes them and is excited to go into it. His body is also saying that it is a valid question.

This is getting ridiculous. It's so desperate and frantic as I have said before. The only fact is that closed caption is saying K said "wrong". The rest is your opinion, belief. I can't be the only one who has closed caption. Anyone who is interested just click on the CC icon. That's all.

So everyone in the world is wrong but you? When we mature we come to understand that that is not a fact. You may see it in time.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #21
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5667 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I heard "valid". (that should settle it, right?)

Do you have a CC on the video you are watching? I can't be the only one that does. For Christ sake hit the CC button and read.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #22
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
For Christ sake hit the CC button and read.

No one is arguing what the closed caption says. Obviously it says "wrong question." But that is not what K said. The caption is mistaken.

Who's "desperate and frantic?" I'm not the one using language like "For Christs's sake."

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 14 Jul 2019.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #23
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1432 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
For Christ sake hit the CC button and read.

I don't need to Jack. I listened twice and fairly distinctly heard "valid". Why would I then believe what someone 'wrote'? Anyway as has been said, he then proceeds to go into the question that he has (to my ears) described as a valid question. And it is. And it proved to be informative for me.

This may be all wrong of course

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #24
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Wasn't there something on the internet a few years ago that some people saw as one color and others saw it as a different color? There were these arguments about what color the item actually was.

So here, we can agree, can't we?, that the audio is not the best and it is difficult to tell what K is saying. There are bird sounds in the background. The audio is not crystal clear.

But "valid" matches K's physical reaction and subsequent treatment of the question.

It is a fact that K has characterized some questions as "wrong" questions in other situations but there is no indication that he is doing so here. Quite the contrary because he doesn't challenge anything in the question whatsoever.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #25
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 865 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
It's two syllables and it's "valid." That's a fact. But you have been primed to hear it by the mistaken caption. Most people let their eyes override their ears. This, in fact, is a great example of error in perception. And you have jumped to the conclusion that the caption must be right. It isn't.

Idiot?, I have to point out that you are actually the one that has jumped to a conclusion here. You have assumed, wrongly, that I had subtitles (captions as you say in your country) on the video I watched. I did not. I rely on my ears. I live in a country where I am used to speaking and hearing three languages every day and I have friends who work as subtitlers in the cinema industry and so I know that a "caption" can be very inaccurate. So my understanding of hearing the word "wrong" (a one syllable word) as opposed to "valid" (a two syllable word with the stress on the first syllable) was based entirely on my auditive competency. Having said that, I already said that I could have been wrong.

I hope that this has helped you see that the conclusions you reached in the quote above were entirely erroneous. But that's ok. I make mistakes all the time.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Sun, 14 Jul 2019.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #26
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 865 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I don't need to Jack. I listened twice and fairly distinctly heard "valid"

You only listened twice Dan? I find that quite surprising.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #27
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 865 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
So here, we can agree, can't we?, that the audio is not the best and it is difficult to tell what K is saying. There are bird sounds in the background. The audio is not crystal clear.

I think we can all agree on this and perhaps move on to talk about some of the interesting points raised in the video.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #28
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1432 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
You only listened twice Dan? I find that quite surprising.

Why?

This may be all wrong of course

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 14 Jul 2019.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #29
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 865 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Why?

I've listened at least ten times and THINK it's "wrong". I just find it strange to be so sure on two listenings. But that's probably just me.

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Sun, 14 Jul 2019 #30
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1432 posts in this forum Offline

For me what was new in this is that the reason that thought runs on constantly is that it thinks it 'knows everything' and what it doesn't 'know', it can figure out. So the misunderstanding is there. In the psychological realm there is only the immediate Now and thought can 'know' nothing about it. It can have no 'experience' of the immediate Now because there is no time in which to have an 'experience'...It is the timeless Present; and experience, as is thought, is the past. Until there is that realization that thought/past has no place there,it will continue to be active. As K. said when it's known that something is not-known, not in memory or experience, thought will not search to find it... it will be still. 'Valid' or 'Wrong'?

This may be all wrong of course

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 14 Jul 2019.

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