Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The Future Of Humanity


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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #211
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5797 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
No I don't, your mind is already dead. You repeat what others say all the time. No creativity what so ever. And surely as much as you want others to recognize you and respond to you you get no response because all you can do is gossip in here. Don't let me stop you,keep making fool out of yourself.

You know, of course, that what you have written above is accurately autobiographical? It describes you to a T. You just make things up or you quote K without any indication that you have understood what you quote. No one, obviously, is interested in your constant opinions and conclusions based on your confused thinking and your gross misunderstanding of what K was pointing out.

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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #212
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1636 posts in this forum Offline

Jack, are you a bully in your house also or you are only a fictitious bully in here? Ofcoarce only in here because otherwize you would have been kicked out of the house by now.:)

This post was last updated by One Self Fri, 28 Jun 2019.

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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #213
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1636 posts in this forum Offline

Who ever took the above shut from poor K must have not been a professional photographer. By the way Ken do you know what happened to the site 'jkrishnamurti.org' ? It has been a while that it doesn't work. Has the foundation ran out of money due to misbehaviour of Eric and his gang member Sanhiji ? They do more harm to the teachings than good. They don't allow any critisizem of how they run that site(krishnamurti network).

This post was last updated by One Self Fri, 28 Jun 2019.

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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #214
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1636 posts in this forum Offline

So in the future of the humanity K and DR B both agreed that humanity is caught in illusion. No matter where one lives , rich or poor, all caught in illusion. What is the nature of this illusion that mankind is caught in and for thousands of years hasn't freed itself? Pleasure may be the driven force of illusion? K once asks can you live without pleasure? I think one has to answer that question if one is at all serious.

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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #215
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5797 posts in this forum Offline

Ken, do you want me to tell meathead why you put up that photo of K where and when you did or do you want to do it? It's way too subtle for him to figure out. Oh well, what the hell, I'll tell him. Hey one, Ken probably posted the photo not so you could critique the photographer's work but for another reason.

I can't be 100% sure without talking to him but I think Ken put that photo there to indicate how K might have looked after reading our inappropriate dialogue of the last day or two. K's expression might also fit for how several people on this forum try to over think, over intellectualize everything.

If your last post, #227, would have been up when the photo was posted it might have been for that too. How many times does K have to say that thought is not going to figure anything out? If you have a question ask it and then observe, don't talk, just observe. But, of course, you won't do that. You will set off trying to explain things in the most banal way possible with all your opinions and erroneous conclusions. By the way, your above questions are simple-minded non-sense. You come to several conclusions that are unwarranted or ridiculous. What a joke.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 28 Jun 2019.

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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #216
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5797 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Jack, are you a bully in your house also or you are only a fictitious bully in here? Ofcoarce only in here because otherwize you would have been kicked out of the house by now.:)

fictitious bully...What is a "fictitious bully"? Fictitious means not real or true, being imaginary or having been fabricated. . So a fictitious bully means not a bully at all. You're saying I'm not a bully.

Ofcoarce That would be spelled, of course.

otherwize You spell it this way----otherwise.

You're an idiot.

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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #217
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 539 posts in this forum Offline

For heaven's sake, Jack, stop! One Self, you too. "Just do it!"

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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #218
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1636 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
For heaven's sake, Jack, stop! One Self, you too. "Just do it!".

Just look how this guy jack judges and mostly condemns everyone . His condemnation words are opinion, conclusion and so on . But he is full of opinions and judgments and he is apparently blind to himself. He is a blind bully and a troll. I can stop there:)

This post was last updated by One Self Fri, 28 Jun 2019.

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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #219
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1636 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamoorthi always had a misty -eyes . It has nothing to do with human misery. It is a biological matter. That picture is extracted from one of his videos when he was over 90 years old with terminal liver cancer , Pluse he is wiping the water from his eyes while still giving a talk .

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Fri, 28 Jun 2019 #220
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5797 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
For heaven's sake, Jack, stop! One Self, you too. "Just do it!"

Yeah, I understand how you must feel. But you see how he is completely oblivious to what he is doing. He didn't understand your request for us both to stop. He thought you were only talking to me.

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Sat, 29 Jun 2019 #221
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5797 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
No, he's wiping his eyes after seeing what's going on in this crazy house.

"Whence should there be joy to a peaceless man?" Bhagavad Gita

Thanks, Ken, for straightening that out. Of course, it was clear to all of us except for one. I told you it was way too subtle for him even though it fell like a sledge hammer in this thread.

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Sat, 29 Jun 2019 #222
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5797 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Just look how this guy jack judges and mostly condemns everyone . His condemnation words are opinion, conclusion and so on . But he is full of opinions and judgments and he is apparently blind to himself. He is a blind bully and a troll. I can stop there:)

Uh, excuse me. Does anyone see any judgments, condemnations, conclusions or opinions in the above quote? It's obvious that he is completely oblivious to what he writes. He doesn't know he's a hypocrite and worse.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sat, 29 Jun 2019.

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Sat, 29 Jun 2019 #223
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1636 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
No, he's wiping his eyes after seeing what's going on in this crazy house.

Show us a video that krishnamurti cries . You can't. Crying is for children when they don't get what they want or when they are hurt. Are you crying ? I doubt it. You like excitement don't you . That is why no one intervenes with jacks rubbish.
"Hold hands you love birds ."!

This post was last updated by One Self Sat, 29 Jun 2019.

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Sat, 29 Jun 2019 #224
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1930 posts in this forum Offline

This thread is well named.

"The future of humanity"? - same as it ever was!

The house has burned to the ground, and humanity continues with petty meaningless squabbles.

Have we humans reached the point to no return? Environmentally? Psychologically?

Who listens? (Not to each other - heaven forbid!)

To the earth - to the universe. The self cannot.

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Sat, 29 Jun 2019 #225
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1636 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
This thread is well named.

"The future of humanity"? - same as it ever was!

When do we get it? The future is indeed now. Who ever we are now is what we will be in the future. There is no separation.

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Sat, 29 Jun 2019 #226
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1404 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
When do we get it? The future is indeed now.

no one will ever get it,
someone cannot do what you do when this is deeply understood,

it is up to you to understand and not blame others for their imperfection and/ or lack of understanding this is only nonsense talk.

p.s. I am at home and July 8 get the result of the bioptions taken, last impressions are much better than the first.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sat, 29 Jun 2019.

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Sat, 29 Jun 2019 #227
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1636 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
it is up to you to understand and not blame others for their imperfection annd/ or lack of understanding this is only nonsense talk.

Do as you preach.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #228
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

For those interested in discussing Krishnamurti and the Future of Humanity:

Sometimes K teaching introduces a oneness where the average person on the street sees a separation. For example, I have been questioning: There is one consciousness of mankind and separate consciousnesses are an illusion. Many of you have been kind to share your understanding and help me with my stumbling block. I appreciate our looking together at this, although I still feel some question mark about it.

Other K teachings, which may be more or less the same thing, that introduce a oneness that counters what the average person's understanding are:

You are the world.

The observer is the observed.

Consciousness is its content.

The stream (in the video that Ken brought in).

All of these bring a oneness to what many see as separate. It's no accident that these can be points of confusion for people, as they take in what K says, and as they wrestle with how far the oneness actually goes.

Now we're going to look at a separation that K makes that goes against a common sense oneness, or at least a common sense connectedness.

The Future of Humanity:

JK: Now let's proceed from there. Shouldn't we first distinguish between the brain and the mind?

DB: Yes, well that distinction has been made and it is not clear. Now of course there are several views. One view is say that the mind is just a function of the brain - that is the materialists' view. There is another view which says mind and brain are two different things.

JK: Yes, I think they are two different things.

...

JK: I think the mind is separate from the brain.

DB: Well what does it mean separate? That is it is in contact.

JK: Separate in the sense the brain is conditioned and the mind is not.

...

JK: As long as one's brain, or the brain is conditioned, it is not free.

DB: Yes.

JK: And the mind is free.

Most of us feel there is a physical brain and a mind that goes with it. The materialist, as DB says, thinks that the mind is a function of the brain. K is saying that the brain and mind are separate. K is saying that the brain is conditioned and the mind is free of conditioning. That is a radical distinction! Perhaps we can investigate this together: What is K really saying here? Is it true? If so, how is it true?

Please read from about page 118 of The Future of Humanity, which you can find here: https://selfdefinition.org/krishnamurti/Jiddu_K...

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #229
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5797 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K is saying that the brain is conditioned and the mind is free of conditioning. That is a radical distinction!

Why can't you just look at this without labeling it? Maybe it only seems like a radical distinction because it clashes with your conditioned beliefs of what the brain and mind are.

idiot ? wrote:
Perhaps we can investigate this together:

How are you going to investigate what K says "together"? Are you going to take a vote and the majority opinion is the one you accept?

idiot ? wrote:
What is K really saying here?

It seems very clear what K is saying. How are you and your conditioned thought process going to make it any clearer?

idiot ? wrote:
Is it true? If so, how is it true?

Once again, how are you going to find out if it's "true" or not. By thinking about it?

idiot ? wrote:
If so, how is it true?

"How true is it?" Does truth come in degrees? Can something be 62% true? Or is it simply true or not true? You have already managed to fragment truth with this question by suggesting there are different levels or degrees of truth.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #230
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

An interesting aside to this brain/mind dichotomy is K's history. K, as a boy, was "vacant." Then the job of the Theosophical Society's elite was to prepare a "vehicle" for the world teacher. In other words, there had to be an emptying of the vehicle so that something could be poured in. What would be poured in? Maitreya? The Master? Truth? God?

And then this emptying process becomes a central part of K teaching. You must empty out conditioning, thought, the past. Only then is there the possibility of being filled with the other, the benediction, the mind that is free.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #231
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

The Future of Humanity:

DB: Now one could ask a question: what is the nature of the mind? For example I could ask is the mind located inside the body, or is it in the brain?

JK: No, it is nothing to do with the body or the brain.

DB: Has it to do with space or time?

JK: Space - just a minute - space - now wait a minute. It has to do with space and silence.

"The mind" as K is using the word has nothing to do with the body or brain. This mind K is talking about is not in the body or the brain. One might conclude that it is therefore outside. But K does not say that. We shouldn't jump to the conclusion that the mind is outside any more than that it is inside.

He says it's connected to space and silence. Again, K seems to be bringing his direct experience of the non-verbal into verbalization.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #232
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

K clearly makes a distinction between the brain and the mind in the Future of Humanity. And as I said in post #243, this seems to be a departure from onenesses he expresses elsewhere. (Note that when we refer to post numbers in a thread, these can change when someone deletes an earlier post.)

Luckily, DB brings this up:

The Future of Humanity:

JK: And choice implies a duality.

DB: Yes but now it seems at first sight we have another duality which you have introduced, which is the mind and the brain.

JK: No, that is not a duality.

DB: That is important to get clear.

JK: That is not a duality.

DB: Yes, what is the difference?

And then, unfortunately they get sidetracked into how thought creates a duality between the ideal and the actual.

Sure. But what about K's duality between the brain and the mind?

This seems not to be a duality for K because in the case of the person who has completely cleared out all conditioning from the brain, the mind can use the brain. That is, the clear, silent openness, or space, which is what the mind is, can use the thinking brain for communication, practicality, and so on. But in those of us caught in the conditioned brain, the mind seems to be something apart that we cannot reach. So for the conditioned brain, there is a duality. For the unconditioned, there is not. That is my interpretation and, of course, yours may differ.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #233
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Here is some further conversation where DB asks, like I do, aren't there individual experiences that I have and you don't? And K insists no!

The Future of Humanity:

DB: Yes, well whatever is going on inside I feel is mine and it is very different from what is going on inside somebody else.

JK: No, I question whether it is different.

DB: At least it seems different.

JK: Yes. I question whether it is different, what is going on inside me as a human being and you as another human being, we both go through all kinds of problems, suffering, fear, anxiety, loneliness, suffer, and so on and so on. We have our dogmas, beliefs, superstitions, and everybody has this.

DB: Well we can say it is all very similar but it seems as if each one of us is isolated from the other.

JK: By thought. My thought has created that I am different from you, because my body is different from you, my face is different from you, so we carry that same - we extend that same thing into the psychological area.

DB: We have discussed that. But now if we said all right that division is an illusion perhaps.

JK: No, not perhaps, it is.

DB: It is an illusion, all right. Although it is not obvious when a person first looks at it.

JK: Of course, of course.

DB: Now then, we say mind - in reality even brain is not divided because we are saying that we are all not only basically similar but really connected - right? And then we say that beyond all that is mind which has no division at all.

JK: It is unconditioned.

DB: Yes, it would almost seem to imply then that in so far as a person feels he is a separate being he has very little contact with mind - right?

JK: Quite right. That is what we said.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #234
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Then the question, as always, is how can we get out of this mess? We see we're conditioned and in conflict. We see the insanity of it. What can be done?

The Future of Humanity:

JK: Let's see. You are asking a question whether the mind can be perceived by the brain.

DB: Or at least somehow be aware, an awareness, a sense.

JK: Yes. We are saying yes, through meditation.

As I said earlier in this thread, real meditation is vital. It takes K teaching from the theoretical to the embodied, to deeply feeling it in the bones.

Naturally, after bringing in meditation, K has to go a bit into what real meditation is not.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #235
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Also, in the long video that we discussed earlier, K seemed to refuse to answer where intelligence comes from. Here, he says:

The Future of Humanity:

DB: Now essentially what you are asking is that the brain should really be responding to the mind.

JK: That it can only respond if it is free from the limited - from the thought which is limited.

DB: Yes so the programme does not dominate it. You see we are going to still need that programme.

JK: Of course. We need it for...

DB: ...for many things. Yes but the intelligence - is intelligence from the mind then?

JK: Yes, intelligence is the mind.

DB: Is the mind.

And as they discussed earlier, the mind is not in the body or the brain. It is has to do with space, silence.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #236
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5797 posts in this forum Offline

There is no problem duality between brain and mind. K often spoke of the limited the conditioned and the limitless. The known and the unknown. This is nothing new. The brain, with it's thought is the known and the mind is the unknown. As they both agree in the book only when thought ends is there the mind. So thinking about it, talking about is not going to get you any closer to the mind.

Instead of trying to dissect the book paragraph by paragraph, page by page why not read the whole book first? Read it a couple of times if you have to. Take what is being said by the dialogues between K and DB as a whole. Not a series of little fragments.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #237
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5797 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K seemed to refuse to answer where intelligence comes from.

No K didn't refuse to answer where intelligence comes from. He says where it's from right here. I took this directly from what you quoted.

idiot ? wrote:
DB: ...for many things. Yes but the intelligence - is intelligence from the mind then?

JK: Yes, intelligence is the mind.

DB: Is the mind.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #238
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
No K didn't refuse to answer where intelligence comes from. He says where it's from right here.

Jack Pine, as I said before, I can't take the time to correct your frequent errors and restatements of things already said. I said in the video K didn't go into where intelligence comes from. In the Future of Humanity, he does. So you're just restating my point, in trying to criticize me.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #239
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 935 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
As they both agree in the book only when thought ends is there the mind. So thinking about it, talking about is not going to get you any closer to the mind.

Hello Jack and all from a very hot part of Spain. Many countries in Europe have been experiencing a severe heatwave over the past few days with temperatures over 40 º centigrade (104º fahrenheit). Thankfully it seems to be coming to an end with today being a little cooler.

Anyway, the central question here seems to be if talking about the brain and the mind here will clarify things and deepen our understanding. Is there an opportunity for this to happen here?

idiot ? wrote:
But in those of us caught in the conditioned brain, the mind seems to be something apart that we cannot reach.

I see this as an accurate description of where we are just now. The meditation Krishnamurti talks of seems to be connected with the emptying of the brain through constant awareness. That's how I understand it. Will this discussion in any way lead to higher levels of attention and awareness?

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Sun, 30 Jun 2019.

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Sun, 30 Jun 2019 #240
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 782 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Will this discussion in any way lead to higher levels of attention and awareness?

Well, we have to be careful with "becoming" and "psychological evolution." We think we can become gradually more aware, but K seems to suggest otherwise.

But yes, Sean Hen, your point is well taken. If we are not pointing to attention/awareness then it can be a lot of useless jabber, yes?

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