Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What is passion?


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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #1
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

I think the best way to start with this question is to consider for oneself the things about which one is most passionate. Then, if we find we both have the same kind of passion for the same kind of thing, we may stand the chance of meeting something that is not just the result of our mental fabrications. What do you say? Would this be an acceptable way to begin looking at this question?

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #2
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1381 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
I think the best way to start with this question is to consider for oneself the things about which one is most passionate.

Hi Paul,
should we not first find out what we mean by 'passion'?
is passion not something that comes and goes and not is cumulable nor measurable?

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #3
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam: should we not first find out what we mean by 'passion'?
is passion not something that comes and goes...?

That's why I think it is best that we start with ourselves, with looking our own passions. That's really the only meaning that matters. It is my passion to engage in dialogue, to enquire, to explore, to investigate. It doesn't come and go. It may wax and wane, but it is always there. It doesn't mean I do it well or better or worse than anyone else. It is my passion in life; that's all I am saying. All the rest are fairly subsidiary activities: my job, my hobbies, my leisure time, my daily life and so on are not suffused with the same sense of passion.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #4
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

passion (?pæ??n)
n
1. ardent love or affection
2. intense sexual love
3. a strong affection or enthusiasm for an object, concept, etc: a passion for poetry.
4. any strongly felt emotion, such as love, hate, envy, etc
5. a state or outburst of extreme anger: he flew into a passion.
6. the object of an intense desire, ardent affection, or enthusiasm
7. an outburst expressing intense emotion: he burst into a passion of sobs.
8. (Philosophy) philosophy
a. any state of the mind in which it is affected by something external, such as perception, desire, etc, as contrasted with action
b. feelings, desires or emotions, as contrasted with reason. Also called: the passions
9. (Theology) the sufferings and death of a Christian martyr
[C12: via French from Church Latin passi? suffering, from Latin pat? to suffer]

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #5
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Let's stick with number 6 on your list, as this seems to cover it: the object of an intense desire, ardent affection, or enthusiasm

But, also, let's not get too caught up in the definitions because each new word brings with it its own nuances and therefore its own difficulties. In talking about passion, we are simply talking about what it is to which we are inclined to give all our energy.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Wed, 20 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #6
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

I don't think that any one of us have such a passion for anything. I have a passion for painting and composing. But that is irrelevant in this chatroom. I also have a passion for learning about the root meaning of the words. Krishnamurti has his own vocabulary and he is the only one who has something to say about passion which is not static. He says passion is the freedom from the "me" and the"you".

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 20 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #7
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

The problem ,if we can call it a problem is that once we refer to Krishnamurti everything changes and everyone(who is relatively sane.) becomes speechless. But at the same time he opens new avenues to explore. We as a society have never gone into these matters. That is why we don't have much to say about passion . We generally associate passion with lust and success.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 20 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #8
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: I don't think that any one of us have such a passion for anything. I have a passion for painting and composing. But that is irrelevant in this chatroom. I also have a passion for learning about the root meaning of the words. Krishnamurti has his own vocabulary and he is the only one who has something to say about passion which is not static. He says passion is the freedom from the "me" and the "you".

He is right. To me this is the essence of a dialogue: that there is only the question and no questioners. That is why I talked so much earlier about the right question because the right question will inevitably have its own action and resolution separate from the actions and reactions of the questioners. But passion isn't a tool that one uses or applies. It comes into being quite uninvited.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #9
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

I just noticed that my main passion in the sense you are talking about is understanding the causes of conflict inwardly and outwardly. The causes of outward conflicts are easy to detect. But to see the causes of inner conflicts one has to have a great passion to find out.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #10
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1925 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
That's why I think it is best that we start with ourselves, with looking our own passions.

Can deep and true passion be 'owned'? Does not the self stand in the way of genuine passion manifesting?

Passion - like love - surely cannot be subjective.

Therefore genuine passion necessarily manifests only when the self/thought/ego - (call it what you will) - ENDS.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Thu, 21 Feb 2019.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #11
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
That is why I talked so much earlier about the right question because the right question will inevitably have its own action and resolution separate from the actions and reactions of the questioners.

Paul, do you know the difference between what is actually happening and having ideas, theories and opinions about things that you think are happening or should be happening? Most of what you are writing seems to fall in the latter group.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Can deep and true passion be 'owned'? Does not the self stand in the way of genuine passion manifesting?

Yes, the self is a collection of experiences; knowledge, beliefs and so on. To base anything on the limited, conditioned self then would also be limited and conditioned.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #13
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

I suggest to ignore the trolls and think for yourself as k said.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #14
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: I just noticed that my main passion in the sense you are talking about is understanding the causes of conflict inwardly and outwardly. The causes of outward conflicts are easy to detect. But to see the causes of inner conflicts one has to have a great passion to find out.

Patricia: Can deep and true passion be owned? Does not the self stand in the way of genuine passion manifesting?

This is our challenge, isn't it? Can we observe all the various causes and ramifications of what we ourselves are doing, both outwardly and inwardly, without the observer interfering in this observation? In other words, is there a passion to find out, a passion to meet the truth? If this passion springs from the self then it will never be free from the circle of the self.

So, first of all, by starting simply with our own passions and interests, it may be possible to see the limits of this passion and thus invite another form of passion that is not tied to the self. We may find that passion comes in only when we have let go of everything else that we call passion. Does this make sense?

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Thu, 21 Feb 2019.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #15
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
We may find that passion comes in only when we have let go of everything else that we call passion. Does this make sense?

No, Krishnamurti is the only one who knew what passion really is or was. True passion is without an object, contrary to what we generally consider passion is.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #16
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: No, Krishnamurti is the only one who knew what passion really is or was. True passion is without an object, contrary to what we generally consider passion is.

That's what I am saying: in letting go of everything else, there is only passion; there is no object attached to it.

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Fri, 22 Feb 2019 #17
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
That's what I am saying: in letting go of everything else, there is only passion; there is no object attached to it.

I don't know if we are able to let go of everything. Everything being what? Passion for making money? Passion for sex? Passion for making things by hand?
Maybe we should give up the word passion and see why we don't have passion or love or whatever you want to call it. Fear is the main impediment for passion or love , is it not? So we need to learn about fear as much as possible. Fear does not exist by itself. Fear is always in relationship with something that might happen or something that has happened in the past. Fear and time go together. does it not? If there was not tomorrow or future ,is there fear? Thinking about the past or the future creates fear ,does it not? Thinking is responsible for fear or pleasure. We are slave to pleasure. Therefore we are slave to thought. That is why thought has become so important in the world. My country, my family, my possessions, my religion and so on. These identifications with things and ideas give one pleasure. And not being able to have these things breeds fear does it not?

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Fri, 22 Feb 2019 #18
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Could we say that passion can only exist when there is no trace of fear?

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Fri, 22 Feb 2019 #19
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Could we say that passion can only exist when there is no trace of fear?

Of coarse, fear destroys everything. And unless it is understood and wiped away there cannot be love or intelligence or compression. Thought is responsible for fear as well as pleasure.

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Sat, 23 Feb 2019 #20
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

So what are our fears?

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Sat, 23 Feb 2019 #21
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
So what are our fears?

Fear is not yours or mine or ours. Fear has been in human consciousness since the caveman. Therefore if I say it is my fear then I have reduced it to a small afair.This may be a little difficult to fathom. The same with thought. If I say my thought then I can't see the significance of thought. To understand thought or fear or greed or any other emotion one has to be objective and universal not subjective and local. Don't you think so?

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Sun, 24 Feb 2019 #22
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, I agree with you. Therefore, what would we consider to be the root of fear? If we say the root is thought or time or pleasure, does that get at it? Or is there something else that perhaps cannot be put so easily into words?

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Sun, 24 Feb 2019 #23
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

J.Krishnamurti: UNDERSTANDING OUR SELVES, page 21

Questioner: But, sir, you have feelings and you express opinions based on experience in your life.
K: I don't think I am expressing opinions. I am just stating facts It is not an opinion to call this a microphone.
Q: You can call it something else.
K:No, I am not calling it something else. I am jealous-full stop. It is not an opinion I am angry, I am violent, but when I begin to explain what violence is and what you must do about it, say it should be tackled in this way or that all that is opinion and conclusion. In facing the fact that one is violent, there is no explaining and no need for opinion.

The above excerpt from a dialogue brought up an important and very pertinent point that is relative to much of what happens on this forum. There is far too much expressing of opinion and coming to conclusions without any real understanding. There is a lot of discussion for the sake of discussion without any real feeling that the person actually sees the fact of what they are discussing.

This thread, in my opinion, has become an excellent example of runaway opinions and conclusions. But it's not the only thread that has done so. I, too, have been guilty of expressing opinions and conclusions that may be logical but are useless because unless one sees the fact of something it's useless to theorize about it. You get caught in a circle of conversation that goes no where and doesn't add to understanding. Didn't K point out, so often, that the quiet mind, not the opinionated mind and coming to conclusions mind, is the way to understanding?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 24 Feb 2019.

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Sun, 24 Feb 2019 #24
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Yes, I agree with you. Therefore, what would we consider to be the root of fear? If we say the root is thought or time or pleasure, does that get at it? Or is there something else that perhaps cannot be put so easily into words?

Yes ,there is more to it. We have described what causes fear. And we said fear is destructive. And we said passion or compassion is being destroyed by fear in the world. So what is next? The word is not the thing,right? The word fear or passion is not the reality of fear or passion. Right? I think one has to bear in mind that the symbol is never the actual. The cause of fear is psychological and complicated . The psychologists and psycho analysts haven't been able to understand fear yet.

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Sun, 24 Feb 2019 #25
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine: This thread, in my opinion, has become an excellent example of runaway opinions and conclusions.

Sir, do you realise what you have just done? You have thrown another opinion into the pot. Stick to the question and opinions won't come in at all, but we find it difficult to stick to just one question. What is passion? For you, what is your passion? Not your opinion or conclusion about passion, but what is there in your life about which you get passionate? Then we can begin. We can look at it, unravel it, exploring the picture that emerges.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Sun, 24 Feb 2019.

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Sun, 24 Feb 2019 #26
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Sir, do you realise what you have just done? You have thrown another opinion into the pot.

Of course I know what I did. I did it on purpose to be "ironic". I also admitted that I have opinions and conclusions too.

What is my passion? Why? So we can talk it to death? Philosophize on it endlessly? No thanks. And, anyway I have more than one passion. What will it take for you to see that talking about something has nothing whatsoever to do with seeing something? Did you bother to read the quote from K that was also part of my above post?

Paul Dimmock wrote:
Stick to the question

You're sticking to the question, these and others, yet all that I read are opinions and conclusions. I know that for most of us who have had a formal education we have been conditioned to intellectualize everything. But seeing our conditioning as it arises is the point isn't it? Intellectualizing is running the subject matter through our memories, our experiences, our conditioning. It is not seeing what is....now.

You want to find out what the root of fear is? Can you do that when you are not feeling fear? Can you find out the root of fear by remembering the last time you felt fear and then guessing about what caused it? By chatting about fear and it's roots?

No, to see the root of fear one must be deeply aware when one is fear. To do anything else is just, as has been stated already, opinions and conclusions based on those opinions. I don't see how it can be any clearer than this.

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Mon, 25 Feb 2019 #27
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

When you or I discuss something in the abstract like fear, for example, when we are not experiencing fear then isn't that the very definition of separating the observer from the observed? The experiencer from the experienced?

We only know fear when we are fear. We don't "experience" fear because that sets up the duality of the experiencer and the experienced. When there is fear we are that fear because there is no entity, no self, apart from our thoughts, our experiences, our conditioning; no thinker who is feeling fear apart from the thought that is fear. There is just fear which is the product of thought or a reaction (which is thought) to an immediate danger.

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Mon, 25 Feb 2019 #28
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine: What is my passion? Why? So we can talk it to death? ... And anyway I have more than one passion.

That's exactly why I am asking the question. One may have a dozen interests, a dozen hobbies; one may be involved in a dozen projects. But is there more than one passion? Surely, if there is more than one, it is already something watered down, fragmented; it's already a source of conflict because the demands of one passion may clash with the demands of another. That's not passion, is it? Therefore this is not about talking anything to death. It is that in talking this over together we start to see that what we are talking about is not as clear and as fixed as we first assume. So we are talking in order to bring clarity to the issue. And we may also find that the issue itself is not exactly what we first assume: at the root of it is always the same human problem of communication and affection.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Mon, 25 Feb 2019.

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Mon, 25 Feb 2019 #29
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

One Self: Yes ,there is more to it. We have described what causes fear. And we said fear is destructive. And we said passion or compassion is being destroyed by fear in the world. So what is next? The word is not the thing, right? The word fear or passion is not the reality of fear or passion. Right? I think one has to bear in mind that the symbol is never the actual. The cause of fear is psychological and complicated. The psychologists and psycho-analysts haven't been able to understand fear yet.

So what is the root of all your fear? This is not a personal question. Without bringing in the experts, what is at the root of fear?

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Mon, 25 Feb 2019 #30
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1296 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimmock wrote:
So what is the root of all your fear?

I said the root cause of fear is thought. Not any thought . But thought in the form of time and measure.

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