Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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What can one learn about one self.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #1
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

Here are two starting points

>Reflections on the Self | Madras, India. January 19, 1952

You know what I mean by the self? By that, I mean the idea, the memory, the conclusion, the experience, the various forms of nameable and unnameable intentions, the conscious endeavor to be or not to be, the accumulated memory of the unconscious, the racial, the group, the individual, the clan, and the whole of it all, whether it is projected outwardly in action or projected spiritually as virtue - the striving after all this is the self. In it is included the competition, the desire to be. The whole process of that is the self, and we know actually when we are faced with it that it is an evil thing. I am using the word evil intentionally because the self is dividing; the self is self-enclosing; its activities, however noble, are separated and isolated. We know all this. We also know that extraordinary are the moments when the self is not there, in which there is no sense of endeavor, of effort, and which happens when there is love.

>Commentaries on Living Series I | Chapter 43 'Consistency'

To be in self-contradiction is to live in conflict and sorrow. The self, in its very structure, is contradictory; it is made up of many entities with different masks, each in opposition to the other. The whole fabric of the self is the result of contradictory interests and values, of many varying desires at different levels of its being; and these desires all beget their own opposites. The self, the "me," is a network of complex desires, each desire having its own impetus and aim, often in opposition to other hopes and pursuits. These masks are taken on according to stimulating circumstances and sensations; so within the structure of the self, contradiction is inevitable. This contradiction within us breeds illusion and pain, and to escape from it we resort to all manner of self-deceptions which only increase our conflict and misery.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Sun, 24 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #2
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 654 posts in this forum Offline

The first thing that strikes me is that no one demands that K speak about his individual self. No one says, "Um, K, you're speaking very abstractly about the self. Which is all well and good. But what about your self? Did you have a run in with Rajagopol today? Was Mary Zimbalist refusing to buy you new Bruno Magli shoes, insisting the ones you have are perfectly good?"

Seriously, if one of us speaks abstractly like K, he or she gets clobbered by others here and there is a demand for the individual self: "Yes, but how are you personally aware of the self?" And so on. So please consider how we treat each other versus how we treat K. There is a difference. Why is that? We have made a judgment, haven't we?, that K is worthy of respect and others posting here are not. Why can we not respect each other rather than attack each other?

Another thing to consider with regard to the self: Isn't the self what gets things done? Look around right now at all the technology, the computer, the desk, the chairs, everything. It was all designed, built, and manufactured by individual selves in conflict. Individual selves in conflict put the food on the table and pay the rent. It's all very well to be free of self and to go for a nice walk and lose yourself in the forest. Yes, we need this. But we're not all free of the responsibilities of work, like K, by and large, was.

It is important to ask, Does K teaching make you lazy? If I am free of endeavor, of outwardly projecting a conflicted self, do I cease to accomplish and contribute? Ultimately, perhaps, the answer is no. There is activity of love. But how many of us really love, and meanwhile, musing about K, lots doesn't get done?

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #3
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5711 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Um, K, you're speaking very abstractly about the self. Which is all well and good. But what about your self? Did you have a run in with Rajagopol today? Was Mary Zimbalist refusing to buy you new Bruno Magli shoes, insisting the ones you have are perfectly good?"

Your point, if there is one, is a little vague. K was, of course, not speaking abstractly about the self or anything else. K was different whether anyone wants to admit it or not. He didn't live like the rest of us with the imagined problems you invented above.

I spent several months living at Arya Vihara in 1978-1979 and had a lot of opportunity so see K and watch how he lived. He, of course, did not live at Arya Vihara but through the orange grove in back at a remodeled Pine Cottage.

Why should anyone demand that K speak personally? Everything he said was personal, from his own observations. It came not from abstractions but from what he, himself, had experienced and from what he observed. He made that very clear on numerous occasions.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #4
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 654 posts in this forum Offline

The point is we treat what K said with respect but we don't respect each other. K taught to respect everyone from the lowly servant to the high official. Only respecting the so called high is fear. Do we do it? No. We respect K, whom we have made high in our minds. We disrespect the people who post here, whom we have judged one way or the other.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 20 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #5
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 654 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
K was different whether anyone wants to admit it or not. He didn't live like the rest of us with the imagined problems you invented above.

According to K, you will never know the speaker. (Meaning you will never know him.) Yet, evidently, you feel that because you observed him personally for a time, that you do know him on some level.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #6
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

It is important to ask, Does K teaching make you lazy? If I am free of endeavor, of outwardly projecting a conflicted self, do I cease to accomplish and contribute? Ultimately, perhaps, the answer is no. There is activity of love. But how many of us really love, and meanwhile, musing about K, lots doesn't get done?

Without the self the whole high tech modern world would likely be impossible. Would anyone slave away on a maddeningly paced auto assembly line if there was no fear...if they saw the conflict and confusion involved in rushing and making an effort 8 hours a day....every day? Would they lay the rails for trains hundreds of miles in all kinds of harsh weather if there was no fear? Slave away in a McDonalds over a hot grill flipping burgers for 8 hours a day, tired and bored out of their mind? Free of the self and effort would there be workers for our steel mills....to build electric power generating plants? Even to pick fruit and vegetables all day long in the hot sun on the farm? To slave all day long in a repetitive mind numbing job in a high tech iPhone factory in China?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 20 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #7
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 654 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
...To slave all day long in a repetitive mind numbing job...

Yes. You're painting the work life as negative and it certainly can be. For other conflicted selves, it can be quite fulfilling in various ways.

Positive or negative, it does seem that a lot gets done by conflicted selves.

Does "practical thought," which K discusses, enable us to do the work we need to? Or is that really a compromise in what K teaches, a concession? Yes, it would be wonderful if everyone were free of self and conflict but stuff needs to get done so let's allow a little "thought" and call it "practical thought"???

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 20 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #8
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5711 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
According to K, you will never know the speaker. (Meaning you will never know him.) Yet, evidently, you feel that because you observed him personally for a time, that you do know him on some level.

No I didn't know him for various reasons one of which you stated. We briefly spoke on two occasions. I said he was different from the rest of us and he was. And I saw him over a period of time in a private setting on and off for a couple of years running.

In a private setting he came across as very attentive to what was going on around him and he was warm and connected to people and the happenings that were going on around him. Not distant. He also seemed relaxed and natural.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #9
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

...To slave all day long in a repetitive mind numbing job...

idiot? Yes. You're painting the work life as negative and it certainly can be. For other conflicted selves, it can be quite fulfilling in various ways.

Quite fulfilling for a small minority. Why do you think we have an opioid crisis in the US? Is it because so many people are fulfilled? Not to mention alcohol and smoking, which are epidemic worldwide...overeating. If most folks we’re fulfilled at work these problems wouldn’t be so severe. You’re living in an ivory tower if you think anything but a smallminority of workers find working driving a truck or bus all day for 8 or 10 hours, or standing at the checkout at Walmart fulfilling. Did you ever work on an assembly line? I did. It was close to torture. Like 60% of workers newly hired on the assembly line at GM don’t make it through the first month. I meet people every day, bus drivers, cashiers, baristas in Starbucks, cabbies, people pumping gas on busy highways in the freezing cold and brutal heat. Almost no one I meet in the course of my day is happy. A few, yes, but a minority. And the way modern society is structured with a majority of workers being literal wage slaves is a major issue which society doesn’t want to address....for obvious reasons. It’s tge slave masters who hold most of the power. Sorry to go off the topic, but I felt your statement needed correcting, idiot?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 20 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #10
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

Let's suppose that Krishnamurti lived like a king, with completed security. Should that effect my understanding of the facts that he spoke about? No.
We can say the same thing about Daley lama.
It is time to move on and stop comparing ourselves with others,specially Krishnamurti.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #11
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
So please consider how we treat each other versus how we treat K. There is a difference. Why is that? We have made a judgment, haven't we?, that K is worthy of respect and others posting here are not.

Are we suppose to chat with anybody? What if the person is closed minded and prejudice. Only Jesus treated everyone the same which is only a myth. Here we have a game going on. If you (you in general)play with me then your answer is going to be different than if you are honest . That is all.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #12
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 654 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
Are we suppose to chat with anybody?

Of course, that's up to you. We have an opportunity here. Someone insults me. It sticks with me. I may not like to admit it, but I have an image of that person. I expect that since they have attacked in the past, they will do so again. That is the kind of person they are (in my mind). Therefore I have closed off the possibility of them being different.

Is it possible for me to let go of my image and be open to someone anew? They may fall into a pattern but they may not. They may be completely different. And if I hold on to my hurt or resentment or judgment, I don't give them the opportunity to be different.

So another way, and the way K suggests, of course, is to not have a preconception, to let go of any image you have of a person, to be open and respectful and caring and to discover what happens.

Now most of us find this impossible. But it IS what K suggests, isn't it? Not to be blind. But to look anew at what is, without preconception. Do we put it into practice?

Awareness in relationship.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 20 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #13
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 654 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
...the way modern society is structured with a majority of workers being literal wage slaves is a major issue...

It is true that the less money you make, the more likely you are to be unfulfilled in your work. Nevertheless, about half of Americans are fulfilled in their work. Here's some statistical data: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/10/06/3-how...

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #14
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

No, it is not like that Id. Even Krishnamurti avoided some people specially the arrogant gurus. I have identified someone as a troll. It took a long time to come to that fact . It has nothing to do with me getting hurt from his falsehood. Only a fool gets hurt from another fool. No matter what you say doesn't change the fact to me. An anti-k is the one who trashes logical discussions and brings it down to his petty thinking which is based on condemnation and insults.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #15
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Nevertheless, about half of Americans are fulfilled in their work.

I would like to see this statistic broken down by income and college background. I don’t imagine anywhere near 1/2 of low paid, non college graduates are happy on the job. As I said, if it were so, why is there an overwhelming problem with drugs, alcohol, smoking, depression, and other signs of extreme unhappiness. Sure I can imagine that many teachers are fulfilled at work, many physicians, dentists, dental technicians, medical technicians, social workers, supervisors, counselors, law professionals, and so on. The poor slob pumping gas on the side of the highway in the hot sun for 8 hours, breathing diesel fumes isn’t fulfilled. But where would we be without the automobile? The guys cleaning the restrooms at the port authority in NYC are fulfilled? The people working in the slaughter house or chicken packing plant? I’ve known quite a few baristas from Starbucks personally and most are NOT happy on the job. Just one example out of many I could give from friends and acquaintances....even a couple of high paid engineers I knew said the pressure at work from the higher ups was brutal. There’s not much happiness in our high tech society I don’t think. At least not here on the East Coast where I was born and raised, not far from NYC. When you ask someone ‘how’s it going?’, a common reply is, ‘Same shit, different day.’ I used to hear that a lot and I found it to be a very depressing reply.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Wed, 20 Feb 2019.

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Wed, 20 Feb 2019 #16
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
When you ask someone ‘how’s it going?’, a common reply is, ‘Same shit, different day.’ I used to hear that a lot and I found it to be a very depressing reply.

Yes,it is a very depressing fact. That is why some live off greed like me and are content with little. Life is what we make of it. Is it not?

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #17
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Life is what we make of it. Is it not?

That’s a nice cliche. It makes it much easier to ignore those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder. Sure, if they’re poor and miserable, it’s what they made of their life. But who is this ‘we’ but a product of his conditioning....his upbringing...the parents, the culture, economics, school, church, etc.? we didn’t choose our parents, our school teachers, acquaintances, economic status, religious background. The one who tries to make something of his life is not separate from the social conditioning, right? Or is there a separate ‘me’....separate from the world...the society?

Let it Be

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #18
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

There's your answer. NYC

Chicago or D.C. is different? I guess you’re being facetious? We have an opioid epidemic in a whole lot of states, I think, and alcoholism and cigarettes everywhere....even young kids are prescribed anti depressants. A fairly large percentage of adults take them daily along with their cigarettes, beer, overeating etc. Not a lot of happy people I don’t think in modern industrialized societies.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 21 Feb 2019.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5711 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
One Self wrote:
We can say the same thing about Daley lama.

I think he's running to be mayor of Chicago.

That's funny, Ken. I appreciate your wit. Do you suppose the Dalai Lama is running for mayor?
Whatever happen to Richard? In prison I hope.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 21 Feb 2019.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #20
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

Here is something how one self is confronted with his own hypocrisy.

Look for Rutger Bregman on FOX !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #21
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Life is what we make of it. Is it not?

That’s a nice cliche.

Krishnamurti said I would rather starve than do the 9 to 5. Is that a cliche to you? Was he fake like most of us in here behind the computer? did Krishnamurti live like everyone else or didn't he live differently? I am the world and the world is me. Most people want to be slaves and there are slave owners to satisfy their demand. That is why we have marriage institutions so that humans can own each other.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #22
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

I don't know what it is but your slogan makes me sick to look at. Honestly, the language is retarded.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #23
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
One Self wrote:

We can say the same thing about Daley lama.

I think he's running to be mayor of Chicago.

I have another example for you to ponder on. Ted Bundy.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #24
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5711 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
No, it is not like that Id. Even Krishnamurti avoided some people specially the arrogant gurus.

You just make things up and you believe them.

One Self wrote:
Krishnamurti said I would rather starve than do the 9 to 5. Is that a cliche to you?

No he didn't. Where's your source? Do you think someone like you, with absolutely no credibility, can post what he wants, blatantly lie day after day and anyone is going to believe him?

Do you lie to yourself too? Do you actually believe the crap you are constantly expelling on this site? And yes it is another one of your clichés. You are so full of it and you feel the need to release it on this forum. Why?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 21 Feb 2019.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #25
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

One Self: I don't know what it is but your slogan makes me sick to look at. Honestly, the language is retarded.

Your post, One Self, speaks volumes about who you are, sad to say. Wim is not a native English speaker, btw.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 21 Feb 2019.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #26
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5711 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
That is why some live off greed like me and are content with little. Life is what we make of it. Is it not?

Yes and apparently by your own admission you have made yourself a bum, a parasite who lives off others.

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #27
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Wim is not a native English speaker, btw.

So am I .

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #28
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

jack (the insult man.:-) You are a troll and you know it. Should I pull out more records of your trolls that you have done in the past . I don't have to prove anything to a troll. Take it or suffer. You must be one of those people who Krishnamurti asked "I don't know why you come here?"

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #29
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Your post, One Self, speaks volumes about who you are, sad to say.

Now that you want to tell who you are , tell us what is that picture that is your avatar . there seems to be two people, who are they and why did you put that picture as an avatar . Is it for us to feel sorry for you and listen to you or what?

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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 #30
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1386 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Yes and apparently by your own admission you have made yourself a bum, a parasite who lives off others.

You must know what it means to be a bum. Otherwise it wouldn't come to your hateful mind.

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