Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Self-knowledge, what exactly do we mean by that ?


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Thu, 06 Dec 2018 #31
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 728 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Indeed....that's the reason why I question the quote from K.

Are you questioning whether K was right or not, questioning the person who transcribed the group discussion im Madras in 1948 or questioning the website it came from? It came from here:

The website says this:

J. Krishnamurti Online is a unique initiative of the four Krishnamurti Foundations to make the teachings of J. Krishnamurti freely available, downloadable, and to guarantee authenticity.

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Thu, 06 Dec 2018 #32
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 728 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Have you noticed that in inquiry or investigation of these matters, there is an initial moment of not knowing, and that moment is free of the known, of thought? Very important to pay attention to that not knowing at the start of inquiry, yes?

Yes, I would say that this initial moment of not knowing is true in this case. And yes, I would agree that it is important to pay attention to this.

idiot ? wrote:
I don't know if you have noticed how devious and cunning thought is. It weasels its way back in and tries to own silence, to understand silence. But can the known touch the unknown?

I'm not aware of having experienced this.

idiot ? wrote:
Lengthening means time and psychological time itself is of the thinking mind. There is no lengthening or measuring in "the outside of time." Duration is a distinction of the brain. Striving to achieve more, to lengthen, is so tempting. But it is another thing to watch, to observe happening in the brain. What is natural unfolds naturally. It needs no coaxing.

Fair enough but it was Krishnamurti who spoke about "the lengthening of the interval between thought and thought". But yes, I do take your point.

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Thu, 06 Dec 2018 #33
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3139 posts in this forum Offline

Are you questioning whether K was right or not?

Yes

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 06 Dec 2018.

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Thu, 06 Dec 2018 #34
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1239 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:

Wim Opdam wrote:

And to me is clear that thought and self-knowing are mutually exclusive.

Then I suggest you read the chapter on Self-Knowledge from The First and Last Freedom that I quoted above.

Sorry idiot, but i was investigating my own doing on the subject !

there are 39 references made to the subject under view "All Quote Tags" and the articles behind. I've taken the task to make a paper of them all which created 14 A4 pages and for the sake of the forum selected the pieces pointing to the subject, so for those who are interested here they are, but it is still not self_knowledge !:

Ommen Camp, Holland | 8th Public Talk 10th August, 1937

We are attempting to understand ourselves, to open up the hidden corners of the mind,
to see the various escapes, so that spontaneously we shall face life, deeply and fully.
Any form of overcoming one habit by another, overcoming hate by virtues, is a substitution,
and the cultivation of opposites does not do away with those qualities from which we desire to free ourselves. We have to perceive hate, not as an antithesis of love, but as in itself poisonous, an evil.

Ojai, California | 1st Public Talk 26th May, 1940

Questioner: How can one alter oneself without creating resistance?
Krishnamurti: In the very idea of altering oneself there is implied a preconceived pattern which prevents critical understanding. If you have a preconception of what you want to be, of what you should be, then surely your awareness of what you are is not critical, as you are then only concerned with conforming or with denying. We want to be this or that, and hence we are incapable of real critical examination of what we are, and therefore when we alter in relationship with what we want to be, we are bound to create resistances and so fundamental change does not take place at all.
Instead of being concerned with the change that must take place in ourselves, let us see if we have preconceived ideas of what we should be. As we have them our attention should be turned to the inquiry of how and why they have come into being.

Ojai, California | 4th Public Talk 16th June, 1940

In relationship, the primary cause of friction is oneself, the self that is the centre of unified craving.
If we can but realize that it is not how another acts that is of primary importance, but how each one of us acts and reacts and if that reaction and action can be fundamentally, deeply understood, then relationship will undergo a deep and radical change. in this relationship with another, there is not only the physical problem but also that of thought and feeling on all levels, and one can be harmonious with another only when one is harmonious integrally in oneself. In relationship the important thing to bear in mind is not the other but oneself, which does not mean that one must isolate oneself but understand deeply in oneself the cause of conflict and sorrow. So long as we depend on another for our psychological well-being, intellectually or emotionally, that dependence must inevitably create fear from which arises sorrow.

Commentaries on Living Series I | Chapter 32 'Separateness'

We may study history and translate historical fact according to our prejudices; but to be certain of the future is to be in illusion. Man is not the result of one influence only, he is vastly complex; and to emphasize one influence while minimizing others is to breed an imbalance which will lead to yet greater chaos and misery.
Man is a total process. The totality must be understood and not merely a part, however temporarily important this part may be.

Commentaries on Living Series I | Chapter 59 "How am I to Love?"

If you find the garden that you have so carefully cultivated has produced only poisonous weeds, you have to tear them out by the roots; you have to pull down the walls that have sheltered them. You may or may not do it, for you have extensive gardens, cunningly walled-in and well-guarded. You will do it only when there is no bartering; but it must be done, for to die rich is to have lived in vain. But beyond all this, there must be the flame that cleanses the mind and the heart, making all things new. That flame is not of the mind, it is not a thing to be cultivated.

Ojai, California USA | 1st Public Talk 14th May, 1944

Self-knowledge is the beginning of wisdom. Self-knowledge is cultivated through the individual's search of himself. I am not putting the individual in opposition to the mass. They are not antithetical. You, the individual, are the mass, the result of the mass. In us, as you will discover if you go into it deeply, are both the many and the particular. It is as a stream that is constantly flowing, leaving little eddies and these eddies we call individuality but they are the result of this constant flow of water. Your thoughts-feelings, those mental-emotional activities, are they not the result of the past, of what we call the many? Have you not similar thoughts-feelings as your neighbour?

Ojai, California | 1st Public Talk 14th May, 1944

Right thinking comes with self-knowledge. Without self-knowledge there is no right thinking. Without knowing yourself, what you think and what you feel cannot be true. The root of all understanding lies in understanding yourself.
If you can find out what are the causes of your thought-feeling, and from that discovery know how to think-feel, then there is the beginning of understanding. Without knowing yourself, the accumulation of ideas, the acceptance of beliefs and theories have no basis. Without knowing yourself you will ever be caught in uncertainty, depending on moods, on circumstances. Without knowing yourself fully you cannot think rightly. Surely this is obvious. If I do not know what my motives, my intentions, my background, my private thoughts feelings are how can I agree or disagree with another? How can I estimate or establish my relationship with another? How can I discover anything of life if I do not know myself?
And to know myself is an enormous task requiring constant observation, meditative awareness.

Ojai, California | 3rd Public Talk 28th May, 1944

Is it not very important that one must understand oneself above everything else? For if we do not understand ourselves we shall not understand anything else for the root of understanding lies in ourselves.
In understanding myself, I shall understand my relationship with another, with the world; for in me, as in each one, is the whole; I am the result of the whole, of the past. This concern to understand oneself may appear superficially to be egocentric, selfish, but if you consider it you will see that what each one of us is, the world, the State, society is; and to bring a vital change in the environment, which is essential, each one must begin with himself. In understanding himself and so transforming himself, he will inevitably bring about the necessary and vital change in the State, in the environment. The recognition and understanding of this fact will bring a revolution in our thinking-feeling.

Ojai, California | 4th Public Talk 4th June, 1944

... I have been trying to explain that right thinking, which comes from self-knowledge, is not to be acquired through another, however great, nor through any book; but rather through the experience of self-discovery, through that discovery which is creative and liberating. I tried to explain that as our life is a series of struggles and conflicts, unless we understand right endeavour we will be creating not clarity and peace but more conflict and more pain; that without self-knowledge, to make a choice between the opposites must inevitably lead to further ignorance and sorrow.

Ojai, California | 5th Public Talk 11th June, 1944

... What is important is to become aware of every thought-feeling, from which arises self-knowledge. You must start out on the journey of self-discovery; what you find does not depend on any technique - technique prevents discovery - and it is the discovery that is liberating and creative. What is important is not your determination, conclusion, choice, but what you discover, for that will bring understanding.

Ojai, California | 9th Public Talk 9th July, 1944

So through this extensional awareness, through comprehension of its inward significance, anger soon fades away; through this process of self-awareness the mind has become deeper, quieter, wiser and so the causes of hate and anger have no place in it. In freeing thought-feeling from anger and hate, from greed and ill will, there comes a gentleness, the only cure. This gentleness, compassion, is not the result of suppression or substitution but is the outcome of self-knowledge and right thinking.

Ojai, California | 10th Public Talk 16th July, 1944

The book of self-knowledge has no beginning and no end. It is a constant process of discovery and what is discovered is true and truth is liberating, creative. If in that process of self-understanding we seek a result, such a result is binding, enclosing and hindering and so the Immeasurable, the Timeless is not discovered. To seek a result is to search out value which is to cultivate craving and so to engender ignorance, conflict and sorrow. If we are seeking to understand, to read this complex rich book, then we will discover its infinite riches. To read this book of self-knowledge is to become aware. Through self-awareness each thought-feeling is examined without judgment and thus allowed to flower which brings understanding; for in following each thought-feeling fully we will find that in it all thinking is contained. We can think - feel completely only when we are not seeking a result, an end.

Ojai, California | 3rd Public Talk 1945

. On the instrument depends its capacity; the mind-heart must make itself capable. It is capable of either experiencing the Real or creating for itself illusion. To experience the Real is arduous for it demands infinite pliability and deep, basic stillness. This pliability, this stillness is not the result of desire or of an act of will, for desire and will are the outcome of craving, the dual drive to be and not to be. Pliability and tranquillity are not the outcome of conflict; they come into being with understanding and understanding comes with self-knowledge.
Without self-knowledge you merely live in a state of contradiction and uncertainty; without self-knowledge what you think-feel has no basis; without self-knowledge enlightenment is not possible.
.........
So through the present the past is revealed; through the immediate consciousness the many hidden layers are discovered and understood. Thus through constant awareness there comes deep and wide self-knowledge.

Ojai, California | 8th Public Talk 1945

This tranquillity of understanding is not produced by an act of will for will is still a part of becoming, of craving. Mind-heart can be tranquil only when the storm and the conflict of craving have ceased. As a lake is calm when the winds stop, so the mind is tranquil in wisdom when it understands and transcends its own craving and distraction. This craving is to be understood as it is disclosed in every day thought-feeling-action; through constant self-awareness are the ways of craving, self-becoming, understood and transcended. Do not depend on time but be arduous in the search of self-knowledge.

Ojai, California | 9th Public Talk 1945

Since we are self-enclosed, in conflict and pain, it is essential to be keenly aware for through self-knowledge thought-feeling frees itself from its own self-created impediments of ill will and ignorance, worldliness and craving. It is this meditative understanding that is creative; this understanding brings about not withdrawal, not exclusion, but spontaneous solitude.

Ojai, California | 10th Public Talk 1945

Because you are not interested in self-knowledge you seek inspiration from others which is another form of distraction. Self-knowledge is a process of creative discovery which is hindered when thought-feeling is concerned with gain. Greed for a result prevents the flowering of self-knowledge. Search itself is devotion, it is in itself inspiration. A mind that is identifying, comparing, judging, soon wearies and needs distraction, so-called inspiration. All distraction, noble or otherwise, is idolatrous.
But if the meditator begins to understand himself then his meditation has great significance. Through self-awareness and self-knowledge there comes right thinking; only then can thought go above and beyond the conditioned layers of consciousness. Meditation then is being, which has its own eternal movement; it is creation itself for the meditator has ceased to be.

Ojai, California | Third Talk in The Oak Grove, 1946

Questioner: Is not self-knowledge a difficult pursuit?
Krishnamurti: It is and yet it is not. It demands effortless discernment, sensitive receptivity. Constant alertness is arduous because we are lazy; we would rather gain through others, through much reading, but information is not self-knowledge. In the meanwhile we continue with greed, wars, and the vain repetition of rituals. All this indicates, does it not, the desire to run away from the real problem, which is you and your inner insufficiency. Without understanding yourself, mere outward activity, however worthy and satisfying, only leads to further confusion and conflict. The earnest search for truth through self-knowledge is truly religious. The truly religious individual begins with himself; his self-knowledge and understanding form the basis of all his activity. As he understands he will know what it is to serve and what it is to love.

Ojai, California | Fifth Talk in The Oak Grove, 1946

Any definite pattern of thought prevents understanding. Understanding is not substitution; mere change of patterns, of conclusions, does not yield understanding. Understanding comes with self-awareness and self-knowledge. There is no substitute for self-knowledge. Is it not important first to understand oneself, to be aware of one's own conditioning rather than seek understanding outside of oneself.? Understanding comes with the awareness of what is.

Group Discussion 6th November, 1947 | Madras, India

Thus, the whole process of our thinking is based on security. You want security because you do not know what you are. You are not willing to face what you are. Fundamentally, you are uncertain, insecure; therefore, you seek security. Seeking security is an indication that you do not know what you are. If you see and know what you are, perhaps you can bring order. If you are confused, you will only act in a confused manner.

Public Talk 16th November, 1947 | Madras, India

So the problem is: can happiness, which is never found through anything, be found at all? If I cannot find it through something, can it exist or am I only happy when I am not seeking, when I do not want happiness through anything? Can happiness exist by itself? To find that out we have to explore the river of self - knowledge. But, self-knowledge is not an end in itself. It is like following a stream to its source. Is there a source to a stream? Surely not. Every drop from the beginning to the end makes the river, and to imagine that we will find happiness at the source is an error. Happiness cannot be found through anything but only by following the river of self-knowledge, that is oneself.

Group Discussion 27th November, 1947 | Madras, India

Self-knowledge as distinct from factual knowledge or the knowledge of a technique, is not a matter of learning from another; it can come about only through awareness. No understanding or comprehension can come when our relationship is that of the teacher and the taught, a Master and a Disciple, or a Guru and a 'Sishya'. Learning is not understanding; it is really destructive, whereas understanding is creative. Understanding comes only through communion, which is possible only when there is deep love.
These discussions are meant to establish that extraordinary depth of understanding in which right relationship with another can be established.

Public Talk 30th November, 1947 | Madras, India

... the problem can only be solved in understanding ourselves and the utterly uncreative state we live in; and it is only through self-knowledge that creation can come into being, and that creation is reality or God, or whatever you may call it. It cannot come into being through repetition, through pleasurable habits, either religious or sexual. To understand ourselves is extremely arduous. If you go into this problem and become aware of its significance you will see what it reveals and that is what I have just now shown - a series of imitations, a series of habits, a series of clouds, and memories. .....
.....
These are facts and you must be aware of them. Then you will feel a new breath, a new consciousness and the moment you recognize `what is', there is an instantaneous transformation; seeing the false as false is the beginning of wisdom but we cannot see the false if we are not aware of every moment of the day, of everything we say, feel and think, and you will see that out of that awareness comes that extraordinary thing called love and a man who loves is chaste, a man who loves is pure and knows life.

Group Discussion 2nd December, 1947 | Madras, India

It seems to me that, without self-knowledge, there will be no right thinking. I mean by self-knowledge, not the mysterious, the hidden, the super-self, the higher self, the Atman or anything of that kind; I mean the self that thinks, feels and acts now, here, in our everyday existence. Without understanding the thoughts, the feelings, the actions that we go through every day almost automatically, without seeing their deep significance, there can be no right thinking. That is the self-knowledge I am talking about.

Group Discussion 4th December, 1947 | Madras, India

We do not want to be uncertain, to be in a state of confusion. So, we use belief as the most gratifying means to guide ourselves. We are not discussing belief in an isolated manner, but as related to self-knowledge, the self which is in action every day - our feelings, our thoughts and actions from moment to moment - and to think out and understand the significance of every thought, every feeling as it arises, thus uncovering the process of our own thinking so that we perceive the state of our own mind, our own being. Without understanding the creator of the self, the 'me', there can be no right action; and to bring about right thinking we must examine every thought fully and completely.

Group Discussion 31st December, 1947 | Madras, India

Nowadays, people go to psychoanalysts in order to dissolve their sorrow. When you gather knowledge in regard to psychology, you are only assimilating the various systems of psychoanalysis relating to the mind. Gathering of such knowledge makes your mind conditioned; and there is also a constant choice and discarding of the knowledge given by others. Mere gathering of knowledge from books really conditions your mind because you search for security in knowledge, and you agree with what is pleasant to you; for instance, war is disastrous, everyone knows it; and yet, people are ready to go to war. You read a number of knowledge-giving books but you don't relate what you read to your action in daily life.

Public Talk, 22nd February 1948 | Mumbai, India

... the beginning of meditation is self-knowledge, which means being aware of every movement of thought and feeling, knowing all the layers of my consciousness - not only the superficial layers, but the hidden, the deeply concealed activities. But, to know the deeply concealed activities, the hidden motives, responses, thoughts and feelings, there must be tranquillity in the conscious mind; that is, the conscious mind must be still in order to receive the projection of the unconscious.

Public Talk, 22nd February 1948 | Mumbai, India

So, meditation is self-knowledge, and without self-knowledge there is no meditation. If you are not aware of all your responses all the time, if you are not fully conscious, fully cognizant of your daily activities, merely to lock yourself in a room and sit down in front of a picture of your guru, of your Master, to do puja, to meditate, is an escape. Because, without self-knowledge there is no right thinking, and without right thinking, what you do has no meaning, however noble your intentions are. So, prayer has no significance without self-knowledge; but when there is self-knowledge, there is right thinking, and hence right action.

Public Talk, 22nd February 1948 | Mumbai, India

For the right values to come into being, you must understand the thinker, must you not? If I don't understand the thinker, which is myself, what I choose has no meaning, that is, if I don't know myself, then my action, my thought, have no foundation whatsoever. So, self-knowledge is the beginning of meditation - not the knowledge that you pick up from my books, from authorities, from gurus, but the knowledge that comes into being through self-inquiry, which is self-awareness. Meditation is the beginning of self-knowledge, and without self-knowledge there is no meditation. Because, if I don't understand the ways of my thoughts, of my feelings, if I don't understand my motives, my desires, my demands, my pursuit of patterns of action, which are ideas - I do not know myself, there is no foundation for thinking; and the thinker who merely asks, prays, or excludes, without understanding himself, must inevitably end in confusion, in illusion.

Public Talk, March 13th, 1948 | Mumbai, India

Without the search for truth, no society can long exist; and while it exists, it is bound to bring about disaster. Surely, the teacher is not merely the giver of information, the teacher is one who points the way to wisdom; and he who points to wisdom is not the guru. Truth is far more important than the teacher. Therefore you, who are the seeker of truth, have to be both the pupil and the teacher. In other words, you have to be the perfect teacher to create a new society; and to bring the perfect teacher into being, you have to understand yourself. Wisdom begins with self-knowledge; and without self-knowledge, mere information leads to destruction.

Public Talk 21st March, 1948 | Mumbai, India

After all, the knowledge that we have is technical, is it not? We do not accumulate knowledge about ourselves. If we do, it is the memory of what other people have said, or what we have learnt in books, or it is a repetition of words, merely the hearsay of another. Very few of us have self-knowledge, the knowledge of what one actually is. Most of us live superficially.

Public Talk 28th March, 1948 | Mumbai, India

Self-knowledge is not an ultimate goal, it is not the ultimate end. Self-knowledge is knowing one's limitation from moment to moment, and therefore perceiving the truth from moment to moment. Truth which is continuous is not truth, because that which continues can never renew itself; but in ending, there is a renewal. So, a mind that is not aware of its own limitation can never experience truth; but if the mind is aware of its limitation without condemnation, without justification, if it is purely aware of its limitation, then you will find there comes a freedom from the limitation; and in that freedom, truth is realized. There is not "you' unified to truth:"you' can never find truth. `You' must cease for truth to come into being, because 'you' are the limitation.
So, you must understand where you are limited, the extent of your limitation; you must be passively aware of it, and in that passivity truth comes into being. .

New Delhi, India | 1st Public Talk 14th November, 1948

So, a man who is really earnest must begin with himself, he must be passively aware of all his thoughts, feelings and actions. Again, this is not a matter of time. There is no end to self-knowledge. Self-knowledge is only from moment to moment, and therefore there is a creative happiness from moment to moment.

Ojai, California USA | 4th Public Talk 24th July 1949

That is why it is important, as I said, to understand the process, the ways of our own thinking. Self-knowledge cannot be gathered through anybody, through any book, through any confession, psychology, or psychoanalyst. It has to be found by yourself, because it is your life; and without the widening and deepening of that knowledge of the self, do what you will, alter any outward or inward circumstances, influences - it will ever be a breeding ground of despair, pain, sorrow.
To go beyond the self-enclosing activities of the mind, you must understand them; and to understand them is to be aware of action in relationship, relationship to things, to people, and to ideas. In that relationship, which is the mirror, we begin to see ourselves, without any justification or condemnation; and from that wider and deeper knowledge of the ways of our own mind, it is possible to proceed further; then it is possible for the mind to be quiet, to receive that which is real.

Ojai, California USA | 9th Public Talk 13th August 1949

...We are going to find out together what is true, and that requires an open mind, an intelligent mind, an enquiring mind, an alert mind; not a mind that is so prejudiced that it merely denies, or so eager that it accepts. And, in answering these questions, one fundamental thing must be borne in mind. It is that they are merely a reflection of the ways of our own thinking, they reveal to us what we think. They should act as a mirror in which we perceive ourselves. After all, these discussions, these talks, have only one purpose, and that is the pursuit of self-knowledge. For, as I said, it is only in knowing ourselves first - deeply, profoundly, not superficially - that we can know truth. And it is extremely arduous to know ourselves deeply, not superficially. It is not a matter of time, but a question of intensity; it is direct perception and experience that are important.

Varanasi, India | 7th Public Talk 14th January 1962

If I may go further into it, the question really is: "Is it possible for the mind to be so attentive all the time, so sensitive that every challenge is answered completely and immediately, and to come to a state when there is no challenge and no response, when it is no longer in a state of experiencing?" Do think about it. You may deny it, you may say it is a very nice theory; but do look at it. When you understand something totally, say for instance, when you understand authority totally, all its peculiarities, its tendency, where you have completely read the whole book of authority which is yourself, in yourself, when you have completely understood authority, then there is no problem any more about authority, no experiences of authority can ever touch you.

Talks in Europe 1967 | 1st Public Talk Paris, 16th April

In the opposite there is what has been. So one must be free of this incessant demanding: the mind that is always comparing, measuring, which breeds illusion. And one must know the nature and the structure of this effort, the effort of duality (the mind is really non-dual, but there's not time to go into that). This means knowing oneself so completely that the mind is no longer seeking, asking, demanding, and therefore it is completely quiet. All that is part of meditation; not the endless prayers, repetitions and the forcing the mind to be still. That breeds conflict and conflict must inevitably exist when there is duality. There is the duality that is created by the observer and the thing he wishes to be, which is observed. And there is the mind that is trying, not to experience, but to uncover, to discover - not follow, not imitate, not become something. The becoming is another form of duality and therefore of conflict.
All this process of knowing oneself is the beginning of meditation - not putting the mind to sleep, not having visions or transcendental experiences through some footling word - but to uncover the conditioned and the state of mind which is ourselves in its relationship to society, in its relationship to another. To discover oneself and penetrate deep - all that is meditation.

To Be Human | Fifth Talk in Madras.

Self-knowledge is not a conclusion, an end; it has no beginning and no end. You must begin where you are, reading every word, every phrase, every paragraph of the book of self-knowledge. To understand its contents there must be no condemnation, no justification, for all identification and denial put an end to the stream of self-knowledge. To be awake to the movement of the self, there must be a certain freedom, a spontaneity, for a thought that is disciplined, controlled, molded, can never pursue the swift current of the self. A disciplined mind is shaped in a mold, and so cannot follow the subtle promptings of the different layers of consciousness. But there are rare moments when the disciplined mind, the drugged mind, is spontaneous, and in these moments there is a comprehension of conditioned responses, when thought can go beyond its own limitations.

The First and Last Freedom | Chapter 1

Is it not, therefore, an obvious fact that what I am in my relationship to another creates society and that, without radically transforming myself, there can be no transformation of the essential function of society? When we look to a system for the transformation of society, we are merely evading the question, because a system cannot transform man; man always transforms the system, which history shows. Until I, in my relationship to you, understand myself, I am the cause of chaos, misery, destruction, fear, brutality. Understanding myself is not a matter of time; I can understand myself at this very moment.

The First and Last Freedom | Chapter 8, 'Contradiction'

To be fully aware of the present is an extraordinarily difficult task because the mind is incapable of facing a fact directly without deception.
......
. Therefore self-knowledge is the beginning of understanding; without self-knowledge, contradiction and conflict will continue. To know the whole process, the totality of oneself, does not require any expert, any authority. The pursuit of authority only breeds fear. No expert, no specialist, can show us how to understand the process of the self. One has to study it for oneself. You and I can help each other by talking about it, but none can unfold it for us, no specialist, no teacher, can explore it for us. We can be aware of it only in our relationship - in our relationship to things, to property, to people and to ideas. In relationship we shall discover that contradiction arises when action is approximating itself to an idea. The idea is merely the crystallization of thought as a symbol, and the effort to live up to the symbol brings about a contradiction.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam 10 hours ago.

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Thu, 06 Dec 2018 #35
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 675 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
"The experiencing of this interval is what we are now considering. There is a vitality in this interval. In this interval all effort has stopped; there is no choice, no condemnation, no justification, and no identification; there is also no interpretation of any kind."

Madras, India. Group Discussion 29th April, 1948.

There has to be first the experiencing of this interval. What we do is speculate about the interval which is not "the experiencing" of the interval. The modern mind is too noisy to experience the interval between thought. Thoughts do overlap each other.

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Thu, 06 Dec 2018 #36
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 443 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam quoted Krishnamurti:
the beginning of meditation is self-knowledge, which means being aware of every movement of thought and feeling, knowing all the layers of my consciousness...

Therefore self-knowledge and thought are not mutually exclusive. Self-knowledge is awareness of thought, feeling, and response.

As we become aware of our thought, it may change, and it may even quiet down to silence. Awareness can be of thought and it can be of silence. What is is what is. For most of us, that's thought and reactivity. So we begin with awareness of what is. K calls being aware of all our thoughts, feelings, actions, and responses "self-knowledge."

This post was last updated by idiot ? Thu, 06 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #37
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 443 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
it was Krishnamurti who spoke about "the lengthening of the interval between thought and thought."

Yes. You know, reading your quote again, I do notice that K is not talking about trying to lengthen the interval. In fact, he says "all effort has stopped." So perhaps he is saying that lengthening of the interval is something that just happens. He's describing something. But it does seem like this is inconsistent with "outside of time."

I've read so much K. I vaguely remember in one of his journals he wrote something about thought suspending for a substantial period of time, on the order of hours, during one of his walks. I'm not sure if I'm remembering this correctly.

Also, in the book Waking Up, by atheist Sam Harris, there's a description of a woman talking to a Buddhist meditation teacher and claiming to have not had a thought for years or something. It was obviously ridiculous and an example of someone fooling herself. Let's face it: it is natural for thought to return sooner or later. To be brain dead is not particularly desirable. There is a practical need for thought and it has its place.

Somewhere I do remember K talking about having a silent mind as much as possible.

Anyway, it ain't the silent mind olympics. Obviously having a goal to lengthen is counterproductive. If lengthening happens, it does. Meanwhile, most of us need to clarify ANY stillness/silence. By clarify I just mean if we never take time to be still and quiet then how will our brain?

This post was last updated by idiot ? Fri, 07 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #38
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1239 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
Therefore self-knowledge and thought are not mutually exclusive. Self-knowledge is awareness of thought, feeling, and response.

There is no intention nor usefull to battle this out is there ?

But one question though:
Is being aware of a lie the same as a lie, or are they mutually exclusive. ?

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 07 Dec 2018.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #39
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 728 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
There has to be first the experiencing of this interval. What we do is speculate about the interval which is not "the experiencing" of the interval.

Well, for most of us, our minds chatter with thought all the time. Are our minds ever silent? Is there any moment of the day when we are fully present? I think these are the questions we need to ask ourselves. If there is never an interval between two thoughts I agree that there is no point speculating about it.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #40
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 728 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Yes. You know, reading your quote again, I do notice that K is not talking about trying to lengthen the interval. In fact, he says "all effort has stopped." So perhaps he is saying that lengthening of the interval is something that just happens. He's describing something. But it does seem like this is inconsistent with "outside of time."

When I posted the quote, I understood that Krishnamurti was describing something rather than suggesting we should try to do something. Of course, setting out to lengthen the interval between thoughts is in complete contradiction to everything he said about "choiceless awareness". I thought the quote was a fascinating description of what Krishnamurti went through himself - a description of a highly aware mind watching a thought arise and being on to it immediately. I was surprised how Krishnamurti's description seemed to "upset" some people.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #41
Thumb_mortyberet_3 Ken D United States 8 posts in this forum Offline

When a moment of crisis happens, does anything you've heard from Krishnamurti make any real difference, or are we just fooling ourselves?

"I wonder if you have noticed that religions are based on books." Krishnamurti

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #42
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 443 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Is being aware of a lie the same as a lie, or are they mutually exclusive. ?

Being aware of a lie is not a lie. Since I can be aware of lying, awareness and lying are not mutually exclusive. It's also possible to lie and not be aware of it. Even then lying and awareness are not mutually exclusive, which means that one happening prevents the other from happening. It means that lying is happening without awareness. But there could be awareness of the lying. It is not happening but it's also not prevented.

Maybe there are people who lie and who are incapable of being aware that they are lying. For those people, lying and being aware of it really are mutually exclusive.

This is all just basic logic. I agree that arguing is pointless.

K says that self-knowledge is awareness of thought, etc. If awareness and thought are mutually exclusive, how can I be aware of thought? If you can answer that and have something deeper you want to get at, please do.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #43
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 443 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
When a moment of crisis happens, does anything you've heard from Krishnamurti make any real difference, or are we just fooling ourselves?

For me, absolutely it made a real difference. When I lost a spouse it was like a black hole in my life for years. I spent a lot of time in meditation. K's discussion of meditation was invaluable. In particular, many people approach meditation with a kind of narrowing, using some technique for concentration, focus. K says that truth is not exclusion. Real meditation is not exclusion, it is openness to everything. Therefore it is true. Perhaps the importance of this is only clear to someone deeply going into it.

K is important in the everyday. But in a time of crisis we look even deeper into these questions.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #44
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1311 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
When a moment of crisis happens, does anything you've heard from Krishnamurti make any real difference, or are we just fooling ourselves?

Yes if one hasn't discovered in oneself what k. and others are talking and writing about. If it has only been "heard" or read then it stays at the level of philosophy, no? But insight into oneself, which means seeing the falseness of oneself, or of one's attachments, or escapes, or the demand for psychological security, etc. then when a crisis arises the reaction may be very different. There may be the 'space' for a 'staying with' the arising emotional upheaval before one is 'swept away'. But it can't be predicted. You know the saying that "there are no atheists in the foxhole..." which is the churches way to discredit rational non-belief. But for someone who has seen the falseness of all that business and the fear and exploitation behind it, truly seen it, it's unlikely he'll be calling out for the baby Jesus to save him at the end...but who knows?

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott 2 days ago.

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Fri, 07 Dec 2018 #45
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1239 posts in this forum Online

idiot ? wrote:
Maybe there are people who lie and who are incapable of being aware that they are lying. For those people, lying and being aware of it really are mutually exclusive.

This is all just basic logic. I agree that arguing is pointless.

K says that self-knowledge is awareness of thought, etc. If awareness and thought are mutually exclusive, how can I be aware of thought? If you can answer that and have something deeper you want to get at, please do.

My look on the case is as follow:
It is not possible to be in the past as well as in the present at the same time !
"Awareness" is in the present and "Thoughts" come from the past.
In my words 'the awareness of a lie is the truth at that given moment' and therefore no thought.

It is indeed very subtle and an event without any boundaries
and therefore a whole event and not partial.

And of course one can also thinking being aware of a lie,
but that awareness is based on thinking and not awareness standing on its own.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Fri, 07 Dec 2018.

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Sat, 08 Dec 2018 #46
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 728 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
When a moment of crisis happens, does anything you've heard from Krishnamurti make any real difference, or are we just fooling ourselves?

That is a very good question.

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Sat, 08 Dec 2018 #47
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 728 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
For me, absolutely it made a real difference. When I lost a spouse it was like a black hole in my life for years. I spent a lot of time in meditation. K's discussion of meditation was invaluable

Thanks for sharing this.

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Sat, 08 Dec 2018 #48
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 480 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
When a moment of crisis happens, does anything you've heard from Krishnamurti make any real difference, or are we just fooling ourselves?

Self-understanding - i.e. the understanding of the nature of self and time, of the limits of thought, of the illusory psychological divisions between observer and observed, between me and the other, and so on - does not flower suddenly out of nowhere in the moment of crisis, if by “crisis” you mean an event which hurts “me” to the core of my being. Does it appear out of nowhere? Can it?

As I see it, I cannot pursue my life of “business as usual”, “division as usual”, “time as usual”, “greed as usual”, and so on, and in a moment of crisis expect a “real difference”. Or rather, I CAN expect it of course, but that expectation or hope is part of what needs to be understood.

The “real difference” does not lie doing away with pain (if that’s what you mean). The fundamental difference lies in how life is approached, as I see it; and this approach comes out of understanding. Is the observer the observed in the sense we have been talking about it; is time a psychological illusion as we have been talking about it; and so on? Am I fooling myself in THIS UNDERSTANDING?

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2 days ago #49
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 675 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
When a moment of crisis happens, does anything you've heard from Krishnamurti make any real difference,

At the moment of crisis for example a great sorrow one is in a state of shock and confusion. So the brain is not capable of reacting correctly. But if one while is healthy understands sorrow then when a great crisis happens he knows how to deal with it.

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1 day ago #50
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1311 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
When a moment of crisis happens, does anything you've heard from Krishnamurti make any real difference, or are we just fooling ourselves?

When I ask myself this question, it becomes clear that it is a question posed by self-centered thought. It brings in the element of time:"I'm not in crisis now but when I am in the 'future', will all this thinking, talking, reading etc. be of any use? Has it 'armored' me against a future grave challenge etc." Which is to say, has the teaching or teachings fortified me against the unknown? That is the only way that thought/time could regard the teaching, isn't it? But as I see it, the teaching is like a 'poison' which undermines the self that is unwittingly trying to use it for self-enhancement...when a crisis occurs, is it best to meet it with the past or is it best to be totally vulnerable and open to it? Totally vulnerable means no movement of thought. No escape.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott 1 day ago.

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1 day ago #51
Thumb_mortyberet_3 Ken D United States 8 posts in this forum Offline

One Self wrote:
At the moment of crisis for example a great sorrow one is in a state of shock and confusion. So the brain is not capable of reacting correctly. But if one while is healthy understands sorrow then when a great crisis happens he knows how to deal with it.

Which means that at the moment of crisis, one is recollecting through memory something Krishnamurti said. So no lasting transformation has taken place. We keep falling off the apple cart. Recollection is not transformation.

"I wonder if you have noticed that religions are based on books." Krishnamurti

This post was last updated by Ken D 1 day ago.

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1 day ago #52
Thumb_mortyberet_3 Ken D United States 8 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Totally vulnerable means no movement of thought. No escape.

So we are reminding ourselves to "be" vulnerable? Are we fooling ourselves with all this? Why not recollect William James or Zig Ziglar? Is it because Krishnamurti "works" better?

"I wonder if you have noticed that religions are based on books." Krishnamurti

This post was last updated by Ken D 1 day ago.

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1 day ago #53
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1311 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
So you're reminding yourself to "be" vulnerable?

If that is what is going on, yes, you are fooling yourself trying to escape from what is going on to something seen as less painful... but I would say that the 'self' can never be vulnerable...it's a 'protection system' forged since childhood based on fear and updated constantly. 'Vulnerability' or innocence is when the self is absent. But it can't get rid of itself, that's where understanding/self-knowledge comes in. You can see how you react even in a mini-crisis. Nothing fundamental can be done about the self, it seems, except observation. Thought has to become aware of itself. Psychological thought/time can't be ended by anything as I see it, only by its own understanding that it is 'out of place' (making problems?). That seems to me a 'fact'. In a real way, psychological thought/time is a crisis in itself. All 'preparation' for a crisis goes out the window when some major upheaval happens, doesn't it? But to the extent that the truth about oneself is seen and understood, then it would be that truth that would operate in the moment in a time of crisis.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott 1 day ago.

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1 day ago #54
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 675 posts in this forum Offline

Ken D wrote:
One Self wrote:

"At the moment of crisis for example a great sorrow one is in a state of shock and confusion. So the brain is not capable of reacting correctly. But if one while is healthy understands sorrow then when a great crisis happens he knows how to deal with it."

Ken: Which means that at the moment of crisis, one is recollecting through memory something Krishnamurti said.

Understanding sorrow is different than merely recalling information about sorrow from books and tapes.
We need to be clear as what we mean by the word "crisis". One time I was drilling a hole in the wall and accidentally I drilled into a gas line and gas started to escape . At that time there was neither Krishnamurti or myself. It was the problem and what to do about it .It took me a while to find the house gas valve. That was a crisis to me because I couldn't find the gas valve. But once I found it there was no more any crisis. The problem became an easy fix.

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11 hours ago #55
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1239 posts in this forum Online

Huguette . wrote:
The fundamental difference lies in how life is approached, as I see it; and this approach comes out of understanding.

That seems to me near the truth, one can even left out 'difference' so one compares it with 'nothing' !

Ken D wrote:
We keep falling off the apple cart. Recollection is not transformation.

that's true, all fallen apples overlooked and left behind doesn't make an Apple pie ;)

There is no re-collection necessary if one keeps it whole !

One Self wrote:
At that time there was neither Krishnamurti or myself. It was the problem and what to do about it .

And it was good you, or anyone near you, where not distracted by smoking a sigareth or your wive was not busy cooking, because than no one was left to solve the problem, only others to clean the mess.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam 11 hours ago.

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34 seconds ago #56
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1239 posts in this forum Online

One Self wrote:
Understanding sorrow is different than merely recalling information about sorrow from books and tapes.
We need to be clear as what we mean by the word "crisis". One time I was drilling a hole in the wall and accidentally I drilled into a gas line and gas started to escape . At that time there was neither Krishnamurti or myself. It was the problem and what to do about it .It took me a while to find the house gas valve. That was a crisis to me because I couldn't find the gas valve. But once I found it there was no more any crisis. The problem became an easy fix.

But all things matter !!!!!!!

so you have to know what you are doing where and in what circumstances, the past matters, because then you would have known where the gas pipe was, the present matter, because then you would have made sure you were able to do it and made sure that your relatives and friends were safe and the future is stuck with the mess of your ignorance, your skepticism, your nonchalandness your lack of understanding for safety etc ..., etc ...

The reaction is necessary because of a crisis/problem created by yourself.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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