Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The surprising lack of gratitude


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Tue, 30 Oct 2018 #151
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

"Goodness shows itself in behaviour and action and in relationship. Generally our daily behaviour is based on either the following of certain patterns – mechanical and therefore superficial – or according to very carefully thought-out motive, based on reward or punishment. So our behaviour, consciously or unconsciously, is calculated. This is not good behaviour. When one realizes this, not merely intellectually or by putting words together, then good behaviour comes out of negating what it is not.

The Whole Movement of Life is Learning, chapter 2: Freedom is essential for the beauty of goodness

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Tue, 30 Oct 2018 #152
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Have you ever gone for a beautiful walk with some friends? The sky and the trees are so fresh. You come upon a barking, yappy dog. You are kind to the dog but no matter what you do it just goes on barking.

It's true that this forum is sometimes dogged by a poster with a rather dogmatic approach. This can certainly become a bone of contention.

idiot ? wrote:
Kindness, love, and respect toward everyone. Isn't that possible?

I would say that this is worth a try. Others might think that you are barking up the wrong tree here.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Tue, 30 Oct 2018.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2018 #153
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
It's true that this forum is sometimes dogged by a poster with a rather dogmatic approach. This can certainly become a bone of contention...Others might think that you are barking up the wrong tree here.

;^)

Sean's humor unleashed!

This post was last updated by idiot ? Tue, 30 Oct 2018.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2018 #154
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Have you ever gone for a beautiful walk with some friends? The sky and the trees are so fresh. You come upon a barking, yappy dog. You are kind to the dog but no matter what you do it just goes on barking.

Is the above part of your phony love and kindness? You may hear a barking dog while others may hear a whining bitch.

You're not talking about anything K was pointing out you're trying to belittle K, the person, with baseless accusations of superstitious behavior and not being grateful enough. This forum is here to discuss K's discoveries and to us these as a mirror to understand ourselves.

Do you appreciate my sense of humor too with the play on words in the above post? Gee, I hope so.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 30 Oct 2018.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2018 #155
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Jack you are full of BS.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2018 #156
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
You're not talking about anything K pointing out ...

See how jack tries to limit our thinking to only what k pointed out and tries to make k into an authority. Something k warn us about the danger of such things . Understanding the teachings means living the teachings not merely agreeing with Krishnamurti and continuing the rudeness..

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #157
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti, Saanen, Switzerland, 10 July 1983:
So the first thing is to find out if the brain can be unconditioned. We were talking the other day to some scientists, doctors and all the rest of it - God, how many specialists there are in the world! One is thankful one is not, one is just an ordinary person.

K expressing gratitude for being ordinary.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #158
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Public Discussion 1 Brockwood Park, England, 9 September 1975:
Krishnamurti: Do you want to discuss the Biography, written by Mary Lutyens - do you want to go into that?

Q: No.

K: No. Thank god! (Laughter)

K expressing gratitude for not having to talk about his biography (although he did go on to discuss it some).

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 31 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #159
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Krishnamurti, Public Talk 1, Saanen, Switzerland, 13 July 1975 :
So what is it that you are aware of? The conclusion, the abstraction or the actual? If I am aware of the actual - not the description, not the word, the word may help me to understand the actual, but the perception of the actual is entirely different from the understanding through the word. Have you understood this? Right, sir? Thank god, somebody does!

K expressing gratitude that someone gets something!

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #160
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
K expressing gratitude that someone gets something!

My but you are obsessed aren't you? Is it because you are just brimming over with "love" and "kindness"? You know I'll be darned if I can find the word "gratitude" in any of your quotes. But then you have decided to equate "thank you" with "gratitude" so now in your mind every time K said "Thank you" he was actually expressing "gratitude". Oh that's wonderful. Now can you let it drop now that you "proved" you were "right"? Can we move on to something relating to understanding the self, understanding our conditioning, or thinking?

You know, of course, that K was joking when he says "thank god"? He did have a wonderful sense of humor.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #161
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Oh wait a minute. I just went to google and asked, "What is the difference between thank you and grateful?" This was one of many answers. There was a much longer answer attached but I just copied the first few paragraphs.

Thankfulness and gratitude are the two words that we often used to express the benefits we receive in life. However, most people do not understand the differences between the two.

Contents
»What Is Thankfulness
»What Is Gratitude
»How to be Grateful and Thankful

To put it simple, gratitude means you are grateful and you can show it in many ways, including reciprocating help, cooking a dinner, help someone without expecting a return of favor, or buy someone a meal by helping strangers. Gratitude can be a way of life for someone.

On the other hand, thankfulness often means nothing more than saying the word, “Thank you”. Saying “thank you” is a good act, however, this action often happens after the person received the benefits and it is more like an automatic response.

In this article, you will discover the differences between gratitude and thankfulness in a clear and specific way.

What Is Thankfulness


  1. Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines thankful as “conscious (this is where I stopped coping. If you want the rest ask google .

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #162
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Gratitude and thankfulness are, of course, synonyms, and are found in each other's definitions in the dictionary. One need only look them up to see that: "It is a fact, is it not?"

Why, yes, it is, thank you very much.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 31 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #163
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Can we move on to something relating to understanding the self, understanding our conditioning, or thinking?

If you were really interested in this, why haven't you begun a thread yourself on such a topic? Are you interested in the self trying to control others? Are you interested in how the self criticizes others and boosts itself? Are you interested in the violence of the self, the anger, the aggression? Are you interested in following and being aware of any of these activities of the self? Yes, being aware of the self and its activities is an excellent topic and I look forward to you taking it up.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #164
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Jack Pine wrote:

Can we move on to something relating to understanding the self, understanding our conditioning, or thinking?

idiot:If you were really interested in this, why haven't you begun a thread yourself on such a topic?

Isn't that odd? May be he is merely a reactionary to words and nothing else. It is interesting to find out why he behaves like that after 40 years of reading k .

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #165
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
Gratitude and thankfulness are, of course, synonyms, and are found in each other's definitions in the dictionary. One need only look them up to see that: "It is a fact, is it not?"

They mean two different things as I have shown here with the above post. Most of us use them for two very different occasions. The original topic was why didn't K show gratitude. Now, apparently, you are satisfied that K express gratitude did merely by equating "thank you" with "I'm grateful". That comes across as kind of desperate don't you think?

idiot ? wrote:
If you were really interested in this, why haven't you begun a thread yourself on such a topic?

Because this topic is complete crap. Why would I want to start one to perpetuate that?

idiot ? wrote:
Are you interested in the self trying to control others?

No but apparently you are. I dislike seeing this forum being used by you and others in such a superficial way that has nothing to do with understanding who we are and how we got this way. You seem more interested in spreading rumors about K. Why?

idiot ? wrote:
Are you interested in the violence of the self, the anger, the aggression? Are you? Are you aware of yours?

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #166
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1373 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Wrote wrote:
It is interesting to find out why he behaves like that after 40 years of reading k .

It's only interesting to find out why you behave like you do at this moment.
That's all you have to do !!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #167
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1373 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:

Myself Wrote wrote:

It is interesting to find out why he behaves like that after 40 years of reading k .

It's only interesting to find out why you behave like you do at this moment.
That's all you have to do !!

Oh...don't do it because the surprising gratitude from me.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #168
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 854 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
So you are kind to the stray dog and take him into your home and feed him. He pisses all over your rug and chews on your furniture. Do you respond with kindness and just let it go on? Some action other than kindness is necessary right? I agree that hostility towards the dog won’t help, and would likely exasperate the situation.

I think that in this situation, the key is really understanding why the dog is behaving the way it is. With understanding there may be possibilities of change. I remember reading about when people came to Krishnamurti with problems. He seemed to be able to get at the very root of the problem straight away. This often involved a fair degree of challenge, facing people with what was actually taking place. Perhaps this sometimes came across as being a bit harsh.

As far as the analogy of the dog is concerned and the situation in this forum, it would probably be worth exploring why we all come here. Do we have very different reasons? Do we really know why we come here? How much time do we spend here? Is this time well spent? Are there moments when it may be better to go for a walk, tidy the house, help someone or do some exercise rather than continually post here? How are we supposed to react to the "yappy dog"?

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Wed, 31 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #169
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Wim, are you aware that all you do in this forum is parrot what I say? Do you have anything else to say other than imitation!!

Wim Opdam wrote:
Myself Wrote :

It is interesting to find out why he behaves like that after 40 years of reading k .

It's only interesting to find out why you behave like you do at this moment.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #170
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Wrote wrote:
idiot ? wrote:
Have you ever gone for a beautiful walk with some friends? The sky and the trees are so fresh. You come upon a barking, yappy dog. You are kind to the dog but no matter what you do it just goes on barking.

jack: Is the above part of your phony love and kindness? You may hear a barking dog while others may hear a whining bitch.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #171
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

Here jack is using the word whining bi....
Are we allowed to use this kind of language(anti woman) in here?

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #172
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

I was just rereading the first few posts of this thread when I came to the 4th or 5th post. One that I posted which had K talking about gratitude.Idiot?, why did you either not read this or reject this explanation right from K's own lips? Here the quote is again.

KRISHNAMURTI TALKS 1949/50 Series 1 India
First Talk in Madras 1949/50

Krishnamurti: I know I have answered this question at different times in different ways. I also know that in spite of all I say, you are going to perform your rituals and rattle your swords for king and country. You do not want to understand and solve this problem of inequality. People have written to me saying, "You are very ungrateful to the Masters who have brought you up." It is so easy to make these statements. It is all cant. One has to discover for oneself that no Master can help one. Is it ungrateful to see that which is false and say it is false? You want me to be grateful to your idea, to your formulation of a Master, and when your ideas are disturbed, you call me ungrateful. The problem is not one of gratitude to the Masters, but of understanding yourself.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #173
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Of course, I read the quote about being grateful or ungrateful to the Masters. Of course, I did NOT reject it. I think it is a wonderful quote because K almost, almost! repudiates the Masters. But if you look carefully, you see that he never says that the Masters don't exist, that they were all part of the Theosophical imagination, and that he participated in this imaginary interaction. He doesn't quite go that far. But he does say that you have to discover for yourself and that no Master can help. That is extremely important, wonderful, and something I am totally in agreement with.

The people who really brought him up were not the Masters. Early on, it was his parents and his family. Later, it was Annie Besant, C.W. Leadbeater, and various tutors employed by the Theosophical Society. They all were a mixed bag, providing food, shelter, a certain amount of stability, and so on, but also all kinds of wacky indoctrination, whether it was Brahmanic indoctrination of his early youth, or Theosophical indoctrination later. So how could K be grateful for such a mixed bag? And he was right that people were presumptuous to demand such gratitude.

I have never called K ungrateful. Not in this thread, not anywhere. Because I don't think he was ungrateful. On the contrary, I think he felt a deep gratitude for everything and nothing, a gratitude that transcends the particular.

What I have said, from the beginning of this thread, is that 1) he did not talk about the issue of gratitude very much, that this is surprising since he talked about so many similar topics, and that I would be grateful (yes, grateful) if someone could show me examples of him discussing gratitude. This happened when Huguette shared an early quote of K discussing right gratitude. That is a very interesting quote that I very much appreciated reading.

2) I said that he didn't seem to express gratitude very often. For example, he didn't, as far as I know, express gratitude toward Annie Besant or his brother Nitya, both of whom he loved deeply on a personal level. There may exist such expressions of thanks and I have not encountered them, or I have forgotten them. If so, I'd love to see them. Or there may not exist any such expressions. Also, I don't see examples of K thanking wealthy donors, either for their personal support of him or for the support of the institutions that he founded. Again, I don't condemn K for this. I think he felt an enormous gratitude for the whole and that to express trivial thanks for the particular would be to corrupt that true gratitude.

Finally, I have been interested in exploring gratitude, giving the word the broadest possible meaning. K talked about going very deeply into a question, not just looking at one very superficial aspect or another. Since he spoke very little about gratitude, I realized it was up to us to go into the question and that we would not have much quote material from him to use as an authority. To me, as I have said, gratitude has both self-centered and non-self-centered aspects and is a complex subject. I am thankful to those here who have helped me understand it better. It is a topic that will come up again in a few weeks, in the US, when Thanksgiving arrives.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 31 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #174
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

idiot ? wrote:
But if you look carefully, you see that he never says that the Masters don't exist, that they were all part of the Theosophical imagination, and that he participated in this imaginary interaction.

Idiot? K does reject the Masters. Did the "masters" bring him up or was it the people in the Theosophist Society who fervently believed in them? K rejected all of that in his Truth is a Pathless Land speech. Idiot?, there are no masters, super spiritual beings, gods, nothing. We have invented all of that. That is, in my opinion, one of the astounding things K has pointed out and gone into great detail to explain.

Idiot? I say this without a trace of rancor; if and when you read the entire Mary Lutyens (3) biographies instead of snippets here and there, if that's what you have done, you will get a much more complete picture of what happened to K between the years of his "discovery" on Adyar beach to the time he rejected the TS in the above mentioned speech.

K, on numerous occasions, categorical denied that there was anything after death. Please research this for yourself. It will mean a lot more to you than taking my word for it which I don't expect you to do. If there is nothing after death, then logically, there are no Masters, god and all of that spiritual belief system that has been exploiting mankind probably from day one.

For me the two most significant things K pointed out are that there is no "god" and that there is no "psychological self". The latter being just a collection of experiences and knowledge that has invented an image of itself. It doesn't matter a bit if we agree on this. What does matter is that both you and I and everyone else who is interested will continue to go into what K pointed out to the extent of our respective capacities and abilities and truly, not as a cliché, find out for ourselves. The world is probably going to collapse anyway but as K pointed out in a prior post in which I quoted K, "it's the right thing to do."

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 31 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #175
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1271 posts in this forum Offline

The root meaning of the word thank is think. Think in the sense of comparison. I compare myself with someone who is poor and I say I am thankful that I am not poor. Or if I have a missing leg I compare myself with someone who doesn't have legs or hands and I say I am thankful that I have hands and so on. This is part of thinking and there is nothing wrong with it. It is good thinking. But what happens when one compares oneself with someone who is healthier or someone who is richer? Problems start by jealousy and ends up in hate and so on. So thought is good in one area and destructive in another area.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #176
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack, you have been trying to curtail this discussion from the beginning and throughout, haven't you?

You have mistakenly believed that it is an attack on Krishnamurti when it is not. I hate to break it to you but Krishnamurti does not need your righteous defense. What is true is true. No criticism can touch it.

You have mistakenly believed that gratitude has nothing to do with understanding the self. It is part of the experience of the self. I feel grateful for things in life, don't you? That is a part of my self here and probably of your self there. I can realize there is greed in that gratitude when it is for what I get. I can also realize that noticing someone doing a kindness is NOT greed, and that acknowledging that kindness is not greed.

I also feel, and I think you do, too, that when I go into the woods and am in connection with leaf, or bird, or the texture of tree bark, that while the details of the particular are there, there is a deeper gratitude for the whole.

Gratitude is part of understanding, part of being human. We have only to look closely at ourselves to see it. Seeing it, it is natural to want to understand it more deeply.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Wed, 31 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #177
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5645 posts in this forum Offline

Idiot?, you didn't even bother to read my last post before this one did you? I think I made myself clear. Also, if you did read what I quoted K and what he had to say about gratitude and ungrateful, on at least one occasion, you have either rejected it or don't understand it.

Unless you have edited your original posts, you were claiming that K didn't show any gratitude and you thought that was wrong. Paraphrased but essentially that's the way it came out. You were chasing your tail then and, apparently, still are. Go ahead and chase anything you want. But why do it here?

I was going to leave for Ojai this morning for the winter months but we got hit by a significant snow storm. I'm going to focus on that and how to get through it in one piece instead of fruitlessly commenting on your posts trying to document your unrelenting belief or attempt to understand a simple word. Are you familiar with the old expression: "Can't see the forest for the trees?" Alright you have looked at the tree now why not try to see the whole picture?

idiot? wrote
Gratitude is part of understanding, part of being human. We have only to look closely at ourselves to see it. Seeing it, it is natural to want to understand it more deeply.

How many words are you going to waste your time doing what you have done to gratitude? Example of not seeing the forest for the trees: Wouldn't it be more productive to go into thinking as a whole, not a fragment, and understand that instead of taking thinking one word at a time? What a waste.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 31 Oct 2018.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #178
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 649 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
you didn't even bother to read my last post before this one did you?

I did read your post #175 but not until after I had written and posted #177. We crossed posts.

I certainly appreciate your positive tone in #175 and you bring up a lot of issues that could be their own threads. For example, did K reject the Masters? As far as I know, he NEVER said that the Masters do not exist. This is worthy of a lot more discussion.

Did K say there was nothing after death? I have never read this and it is definitely worth discussing further. He did talk about psychologically dying into the moment. Elsewhere he said there are "streams," by which he implied some kind of reincarnation perhaps. It is complicated and well worth discussing.

And the question of God and how K went into that is also important and worth discussing.

Any of these could make great threads.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #179
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1373 posts in this forum Offline

Myself Wrote wrote:
Wim, are you aware that all you do in this forum is parrot what I say?
Do you have anything else to say other than imitation!!

.

Wim Opdam wrote:

Myself Wrote :
It is interesting to find out why he behaves like that after 40 years of reading k .

It's only interesting to find out why you behave like you do at this moment.
That's all you have to do !!

.

Wim Opdam wrote:

Oh...don't do it because the surprising gratitude from me.

if the interpretation of what is written is only seen as parroting
it is clear why misunderstanding prevails on this forum!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 08 Nov 2018.

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