Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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How many people understand Krishnamurti?

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Sat, 11 Aug 2018 #61
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1408 posts in this forum Offline

If one wants to learn about him or herself these discussions don't help. Because there are ideas interfering with each other. Arguments dull the mind. Arguments are based on ideas not facts.

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Sat, 11 Aug 2018 #62
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B:Is that so? Do you think that you can use a virtual discussion forum to find the truth about yourself? We are here exclusively because of Krishnamurti. To suggest that we should ignore his teachings and talk about ourselves is an obvious contradiction.

Or we do both. We learn about both at the same time. That is, we learn about our relationship to K and our relationship to each other simultaneously. K wouldn't separate the two, so why should we? You can argue the point, if you wish, or we can jump into it. K says life is relationship; I say it too. It is up to you whether or not you join us.

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Sat, 11 Aug 2018 #63
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote: If one wants to learn about him or herself these discussions don't help. Because there are ideas interfering with each other. Arguments dull the mind. Arguments are based on ideas not facts.

You are the only one who is presenting arguments and ideas. I am not; K is not. So, it is up to you. I am offering an invitation. I may be a serial killer, but this is all online so you are perfectly safe.

Don't answer straightaway. Sleep on it. The offer will still stand tomorrow morning. But it is always a big risk we take when we open up all these boxes. We are complicated creatures; it won't be sorted in a few hours.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Sat, 11 Aug 2018.

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Sat, 11 Aug 2018 #64
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1408 posts in this forum Offline

So what are we arguing about Paul? Everything I said is true. I don't have time for illusions and ideas. Arguing for the sake of argument is a wastage of energy ,no?

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Sat, 11 Aug 2018 #65
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

An interesting conversation from The Reluctant Messiah, by Sidney Field.

A conversation with Jiddu Krishnamurti following the death of John Field from The Reluctant Messiah, by Sidney Field.

( A , who talk with K. , is Alain Naude )

K.: No, sir, just go slowly. It's rather complicated. The stream of humanity is anger, hate, jealosy, seeking power, position, cheating, corrupt, polluted. That is the stream. Of that stream is my brother John. When he existed physically, he has a physical body, but psychologically he was of this. Therefore was he ever different from this? From the stream? Or only physically different and therefore thinking he was different. You follow my point?

A: There was an entity who was self-conscious ...

K: ... As John.

(Another quote from the text.)

A: That is meditation, that is real meditation, because the stream is not life. The stream is totally mechanical.

K: I must die to the stream.

A: All the time.

K: All the time. And therefore I must deny - not deny, I must not get entangled with - John who is in the stream.

A: One must repudiate the things of the stream.

K: That means I must repudiate my brother.

A: I must repudiate having a brother. You see what that means?

K: I see my brother belonging to this, and as I move away from the stream my mind is open. I think that is compassion.

A: When the stream is seen from that which is not of the stream.

K: When the man of the stream steps out and looks, then he has compassion.

A: And love.

https://selfdefinition.org/afterlife/krishnamur...

This post was last updated by Rich Nolet Sat, 11 Aug 2018.

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Sun, 12 Aug 2018 #66
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote: So what are we arguing about? Everything I said is true. I don't have time for illusions and ideas. Arguing for the sake of argument is a wastage of energy, no?

You put the question about how many people understand K. One person is enough, if that person is you. Is that person you? Have you understood everything that K is saying right to the end of the line? I am not saying you have or you have not. I am asking you, inviting you to question it. What is K telling us to do? This is basically what we are unclear about. You yourself have doubts about this because you have started the new topic on laziness. So can we look at it together without throwing in a single idea or opinion, just look at it and find out what it all means?

Sir, he is offering us something immense, revolutionary, to use your word. How are we to receive it? We have mediocre brains, lazy brains; and we want everything quickly and permanently fixed. We want to be the one who can say, 'I have got it; I am safe now.' That's actually the way we approach all this. This is not an idea or an argument; this is the state of our own cheap minds. So, surely, the first thing he is telling us to do is to receive what he is saying in a revolutionary way. What does that mean?

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Sun, 12 Aug 2018.

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Sun, 12 Aug 2018 #67
Thumb_stringio Daniel Paul. Ireland 100 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Paul Dimock wrote:
What is K telling us to do?

Hello Paul and anyone ,well I thought that today's quote may have some value regarding this question here....or not..

uckland, New Zealand | 3rd Vasanta School Gardens Talk 2nd April, 1934

You know, you have been here at my talks, fortunately or unfortunately, for the last four or five days, and merely listening to my talks is not going to do anything, is not going to give you wisdom.

What gives wisdom is action.

Wisdom is not a thing to be bought, or got from encyclopaedias, or from reading philosophies. I have never read any philosophies. It is only in the process of action that you begin to discern what is false and what is true; and very few people are alert, eager for action. They would rather sit down and discuss, or attend churches, create mysteries out of nothing, because their minds are slothful, lazy, and behind that there is the fear of going against society, against the established order.

So listening to my talks, or reading what I have said, is not going to awaken intelligence or lead you to truth, to that ecstasy of life which is in continual movement. What brings wisdom is to become aware of one of these hindrances, and to act.

Take, as I said, the hindrance of patriotism or of belief, and begin to act, and you will see to what depth, to what profundity of thought it will lead you. You go far beyond any theoretical theologian, any philosopher; and in that action you will find out that there comes a time when you are not seeking for a result from your action, a fruit from your action, but the very action itself has meaning.

In the process of experimenting, in the process of liberating the mind and heart from hindrances there will take place action, result. But the essential thing is that there is this continual movement of mind and heart. If all action is really the expression of that movement, then action becomes the new society, the new environment and therefore society is not being approximated to some ideal, but in that action, society is also moving, never static, never still, and morality is then a voluntary perception, not forced through fear, or imposed externally by society or by religion.

So, gradually, in this process of liberating the mind from the false, there is not the replacement of the false by the true, but only the true. Then you are no longer seeking a substitution, but in the processes of discovering the false, you liberate the mind to move, to live eternally, and then action becomes a spontaneous, natural thing, and therefore life becomes, not a school in which to learn to compete, to fight, life becomes a thing to be lived intelligently, supremely, happily. And such a life is the life of a consummate human being.

Dan ...........

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Sun, 12 Aug 2018 #68
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 877 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimock wrote:
There is no answer to it from the past, which is the quickest and most convenient place to search. That's where the conditioned mind always looks because the past is our greatest protection. But there is no answer in the past. Would you agree? Are we still together in this?

We've commented on this forum before about the quality of freshness and newness which Krishnamurti managed to bring to discussions. As one fellow forum member put it, it's as if he found a way to discover things for the first time over and over again. Krishnamurti sometimes started discussions by asking people to, if possible, put all previous knowledge aside. So if the question is, can we explore what conditioning is as equals and put aside past knowledge, my reply would be I would be very happy to try this. Perhaps a new thread would be the best place to do this.

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Sun, 12 Aug 2018 #69
Thumb_avatar idiot ? United States 667 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimock wrote:
how many people understand K. One person is enough, if that person is you.

Simply untrue.

True insight is the flowering of love. It is not hoarding the gem away for yourself. To really be aware is to embody love. That is its own communication.

You might even start jabbering away for decades, setting people unconditionally free.


The Mahayana Buddhists vow to refuse to enter nirvana until everyone else has. Imagine a bunch of Boddhisattvas sitting around, at the end, talking:

"Well, now we've gotten everyone into nirvana. Shall we?"

"Why yes, after you."

"Oh no, no, after you."

"I insist after you."

"I simply couldn't. After you."

And so on for eternity.

This post was last updated by idiot ? Sun, 12 Aug 2018.

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Sun, 12 Aug 2018 #70
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

idiot: Simply untrue. True insight is the flowering of love. It is not hoarding the gem away for yourself. To really be aware is to embody love. That is its own communication. You might even start jabbering away for decades, setting people unconditionally free.

I think you have misunderstood what I was saying. It is not about hoarding away the treasure. But it all starts with you. It is all about the quality of what you have found, not the quantity shared or gathered. Love is the heart of it. What is K telling us to do? From insight, from love, what do you say?

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Sun, 12 Aug 2018 #71
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel Paul: I thought that today's quote may have some value regarding this question here: Auckland, New Zealand | 3rd Vasanta School Gardens Talk 2nd April, 1934: "You know, you have been here at my talks, fortunately or unfortunately, for the last four or five days, and merely listening to my talks is not going to do anything, is not going to give you wisdom..."

We could quote a thousand of these talks, but I think what is important is to find out together the central issue, the one thing that lies at the heart of all the teachings. If we are together in that one thing, it may open up to the rest. But if we are not first together, the danger is we shall each come to this with our own interpretations. What do we think K is telling us to do? The question is not about what K says, but what we think he says. Do you follow what I mean?

After all, when K says that merely listening to his talks is not going to do anything, it doesn't really do justice to what he himself said about the essential importance of listening. There are many occasions where he stresses it, for example:

K: What is important is my act of listening. And that act of listening has brought about a miracle of complete freedom from all your statements - whether true, false, real - my mind is completely attentive. Attention means no border. The moment I have a border I begin to fight you - agree, disagree. The moment attention has a frontier then concepts arise. But if I listen to you completely without a single interference of thought or ideation or mentation, just listen to that, the miracle has taken place. Which is my total attention absolves me, my mind, from all the statement. Therefore my mind is extraordinarily free to act. (K in dialogue with Allan Anderson, 22nd February 1974)

In other words, merely listening to the talks may be the whole secret.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Mon, 13 Aug 2018.

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Sun, 12 Aug 2018 #72
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen: We've commented on this forum before about the quality of freshness and newness which Krishnamurti managed to bring to discussions. As one fellow forum member put it, it's as if he found a way to discover things for the first time over and over again. Krishnamurti sometimes started discussions by asking people to, if possible, put all previous knowledge aside. So if the question is, can we explore what conditioning is as equals and put aside past knowledge, my reply would be I would be very happy to try this. Perhaps a new thread would be the best place to do this.

We are currently exploring this question of what we think K is telling us to do. I think it is really the same question as yours, because either our conditioning will dictate what we say or we will have to find a different kind of answer. So, if I may suggest, can we finish with this other question first before starting a new thread? I think your question is highly pertinent; I am not dismissing it. But I also think we have the perfect opportunity to watch our own conditioning in action as we approach this previous question. However, if you wish to start a new thread, I am happy to join you there too.

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Sun, 12 Aug 2018 #73
Thumb_avatar Peter Kesting United States 1228 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:

Is the mother attached to the newborn baby? Is that conditing? Is there something wrong in that?

What is conditioning?

Goodman B wrote:
No, the word conditioning is exclusively used by Krishnamurti. He clearly says what he means by the word conditioning. We are conditioned from childhood to believe in the existence of God or in other part of the world we are conditioned to believe in the none existence of God. Conditioning according to Krishnamurti is how we are brought up to be nationalistic in schools . A mother caring for her offspring is not thought made . It is therefore unconditional love..

Is self centeredness conditioning? Is self centeredness "wired in"?

This post was last updated by Peter Kesting Sun, 12 Aug 2018.

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Sun, 12 Aug 2018 #74
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1444 posts in this forum Offline

Peter Kesting wrote:
Is self centeredness conditioning? Is self centeredness "wired in"?

It may be...he uses the metaphor of the "stream" to describe the 'hallmarks' of self-centeredness: conflict, competition, greed, fear etc., but says that it is possible through 'self-knowledge', to "step out of it". That would be a "mutation" of the brain cells themselves. The brain would cease to function as it does now: "wired into" the conditioning of the 'stream'.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 12 Aug 2018.

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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 #75
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 329 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimock wrote:
We are currently exploring this question of what we think K is telling us to do.

In all due respect Paul, what make you think that K. ever ask anyone to do anything ?

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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 #76
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1408 posts in this forum Offline

Read all of the posts in the blog with those valuable Krishnamurti'a articles. What I get is that each one of us psychologically are going through the same thing. The stream of selfishness . Stepping out of the stream of selfishness with it's frustrations and sorrow is wisdom and intelligence. Self-understanding is the only way out No?

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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 #77
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet: In all due respect, what makes you think that K ever asked anyone to do anything?

Therefore who or what is K? He himself was always wary of the word 'teachings' to describe his work. Also, he discouraged all interpretation of his words. So what is our relationship to K? Do we all have our own personal relationship with him, taking from him the pieces that resonate most strongly? Or is K relevant at all to what we are doing here? So why are we here? It always comes back to this question. Deeply, why are we here? I put this question to you; I say, 'Why are you here?' What's your response to it?

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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 #78
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B: What I get is that each one of us psychologically are going through the same thing. The stream of selfishness. Stepping out of the stream of selfishness with its frustrations and sorrow is wisdom and intelligence. Self-understanding is the only way out. No?

We can only say what is the only way out if we have stepped out of the stream. Otherwise, we are making more currents in the stream; because we generally tend to argue over what we all mean by self-understanding. Who is it that wants to step out of the stream of selfishness? First of all, am I selfish? Are you selfish?

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Tue, 14 Aug 2018 #79
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 877 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimock wrote:
Or is K relevant at all to what we are doing here? So why are we here? It always comes back to this question.

Probably most people who come here have been deeply moved by what Krishnamurti had to say. Krishnamurti's "teachings" are not easy to understand. Perhaps we come here to share what we understand about the teachings and in the possibility that we might understand more. If this is the case, K and what he said are both highly relevant.

Are there deeper motives as to why we come here which involve the ego? Do we want to show off our understanding of K to others and be respected and regarded as wise? Do we want to achieve or gain something like enlightenment that will make our lives better?

What is our state of mind when we come here? Are we open and ready to listen? How do we feel about the other people who come here?

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #80
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5736 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Jay , i feel sorry for you .There you are exposing yourself . The self has to expose itself specially in arguments . I feel very sorry for you and selfish people who think that they are important in this virtual discussions . Your thinking is conditioned by your selfishness and no one can help you. (There is no anger in my response to your selfish comment. ) . You can't confuse those who are not confused to get angry or what so ever. I just feel sorry for you.

Goodman, if there was any doubt about your arrogance and your appalling lack of honesty it was certainly laid to rest with your above comment.

Mister Jayaraj is one of the most thoughtful, careful and responsible posters on this forum. His many intelligent posts bear witness to this. It is painfully clear that you do tend to preach and that you don't appear to grasp what K was pointing out. You do seem to have a lot of ideas about the teachings but ideas are based on conditioning not understanding.

I'm calling you dishonest because you wrote that you weren't angry. I think it's pretty obvious that you were when you wrote your response.

And GB you really don't explore with others so much as you generate your own dogma based on your incomplete or erroneous conclusions about what K pointed out.

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #81
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1408 posts in this forum Offline

Jack , You want to play the selfish game. Don't distract the blog and make it about your self. I refuse to answer people who have nothing to say except jumping on people. And don't defend others (it is rude.)they can speak for themselves . you act as if you have authority and dominance in this site which you don't. Get rid of that ego and learn from Krishnamurti (not me). And stop the self centers activities. That is my "preach " to you. Don't be selfish and occupy your mind with other people. It is unhealthy. De-condition yourself and step out of the selfishness. I can see that your thinking is based on selfishness, change it.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 15 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #82
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5736 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
Jack , You want to play the selfish game. Don't distract the blog and make it about your self. I refuse to answer people who have nothing to say except jumping on people. And don't defend others (it is rude.)they can speak for themselves . you act as if you have authority and dominance in this site which you don't. Get rid of that ego and learn from Krishnamurti (not me). And stop the self centers activities. That is my "preach " to you. Don't be selfish and occupy your mind with other people. It is unhealthy. De-condition yourself and step out of the selfishness. I can see that your thinking is based on selfishness, change it.

Are you really this obtuse, this unaware of who you are, this blind? Can't you see how hypocritical your above post is? The above paragraph you wrote describes you and your activity here perfectly.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 15 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #83
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1408 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
The above paragraph you wrote describes you and your activity here perfectly.

Look at the way you think. As I said selfishness is the basis of your thinking. You are conditioned to think like that from childhood. No one including krishnamurti can possibly save you from your thinking. I do feel sorry for you dude. I seriously do.

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #84
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1408 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimock wrote:
We can only say what is the only way out if we have stepped out of the stream.

Is that so ? Have you not ever stepped out of the stream of selfishness? In other words have you ever loved ?

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 15 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #85
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B: Is that so? Have you not ever stepped out of the stream of selfishness? In other words have you ever loved?

You are avoiding my question. Am I selfish? Are you selfish? It is not about what may have happened to us in the past, but about what we are now. I have you told you about love. I said love is at the heart of it.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Wed, 15 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #86
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen: Probably most people who come here have been deeply moved by what Krishnamurti had to say. Krishnamurti's "teachings" are not easy to understand. Perhaps we come here to share what we understand about the teachings and in the possibility that we might understand more. If this is the case, K and what he said are both highly relevant. Are there deeper motives as to why we come here which involve the ego? Do we want to show off our understanding of K to others and be respected and regarded as wise? Do we want to achieve or gain something like enlightenment that will make our lives better? What is our state of mind when we come here? Are we open and ready to listen? How do we feel about the other people who come here?

You are perfectly correct. All of this comes into it. I think you have touched on the key issue when you say that we understand something of the teachings and come here in the possibility that we might understand some more. So it is a mind that wants more. First of all, it is a greedy mind. Would you accept this? It is greedy for more power, more security, more respect and all the rest of it, in the form of more understanding. It is asking a lot to accept all this.

You see, I asked a different question, sir. I asked, ‘Why are you here?’ What’s your response to this question? Do you take it personally and get affronted? Or can we look at it together and unravel its meaning?

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Wed, 15 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #87
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1408 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Dimock wrote:
Am I selfish? Are you selfish? It is not about what may have happened to us in the past, but about what we are now.

Yes, let's investigate instead of condemning or justifying. Can we?

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #88
Thumb_pd Paul Dimmock United Kingdom 210 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B: Yes, let's investigate instead of condemning or justifying. Can we?

So are you selfish? Let's break this apart.

This post was last updated by Paul Dimmock Wed, 15 Aug 2018.

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #89
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1408 posts in this forum Offline

Your questions does not make sense or is a wrong question all together . In America self conviction is not accepted.

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Wed, 15 Aug 2018 #90
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1408 posts in this forum Offline

Your questions does not make sense or is a wrong question all together . In America self conviction is not accepted.

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