Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Choiceless perception

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #121
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
So you are suggesting that more words/information/knowledge will help me see something very clear and obvious?

Not saying that, but that we like to think that discussing the 'teaching' is fundamentally different/better than discussing the Yankees game. That we are 'getting somewhere' on the road to self knowledge or freedom. Of course K said that freedom was the first step.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #122
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1299 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Can you relate K's point about being nothing to what we were discussing about observation?

K: ... think greatly and be not afraid of confusion in yourself. In the clarity after confusion you will find that all obscurity, all deceptions, all disillusionments vanish, and when you are 'as nothing' you hold the perfume of completeness.

(Omnen 1931)

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 26 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #123
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1299 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:

That we are 'getting somewhere' on the road to self knowledge or freedom.

K."Truth is a pathless land".

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 26 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #124
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 80 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
'Nothingness in mind' would imply thinking about it.

#98 speaks about nothingness as an experiencing and not a being static, which as I see, is a deepening movement in which there is a purgation of the last trace of an observer trying to stay untouched by that which it observes.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #125
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 80 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
That we are 'getting somewhere' on the road to self knowledge or freedom.

At-least the point of departure to those roads?

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #126
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Can you relate K's point about being nothing to what we were discussing about observation?

K: ... think greatly and be not afraid of confusion in yourself. In the clarity after confusion you will find that all obscurity, all deceptions, all disillusionments vanish, and when you are 'as nothing' you hold the perfume of completeness.

I'm not sure that clarifies my question, but I was hoping you'd put it in your own words, Dan. Nothing wrong with quoting K, but do we really have to respond to every question with a K quote?

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 26 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #127
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

That we are 'getting somewhere' on the road to self knowledge or freedom.

At-least the point of departure to those roads?

So we're at least heading in the right direction? Randall seemed to be saying, no...that all we're doing here is sharing knowledge and information....opinions, beliefs.

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 26 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #128
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:

98 speaks about nothingness as an experiencing and not a being static, which as I see, is a deepening movement in which there is a purgation of the last trace of an observer trying to stay untouched by that which it observes.

Here's an excerpt from #98

"You can come upon your relationship to this nothingness and its fear only by being choicelessly aware of the escapes. You are not related to it as a separate, individual entity; you are not the observer watching it; without you, the thinker, the observer, it is not. You and nothingness are one; you and nothingness are a joint phenomenon, not two separate processes. If you, the thinker, are afraid of it and approach it as something contrary and opposed to you, then any action you may take towards it must inevitably lead to illusion and so to further conflict and misery"

This would apply to any observation then, right? Observing fear, anger, desire, hate? Normally we observe as the separate observer....try to analyze or modify what we observe. All that amounts to thinking about it as if it's separate from 'me'.

What do you mean by the part in bold, Nat? Can you elaborate perhaps using an example from every day living? I observe that my spouse or child says something that causes anger in me. How do I observe my anger without condemnation or justification!

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This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 26 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #129
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 80 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
What do you mean by the part in bold, Nat? Can you elaborate perhaps using an example from every day living? I observe that my spouse or child says something that causes anger in me. How do I observe my anger without condemnation or justification!

The need to observe it without condemnation or justification is arising out of after the event guilt, and has guilt ever been powerful enough to deal with the issue as it arises? What I was getting at is the aspect of our tendency to identify rather than maintaining the distance with the observed and yet be involved with it, with all the available energy at our disposal.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #130
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
What I was getting at is the aspect of our tendency to identify rather than maintaining the distance with the observed and yet be involved with it,

By identifying, you mean naming? Identifying anger as anger, for instance?

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #131
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
The need to observe it without condemnation or justification is arising out of after the event guilt, and has guilt ever been powerful enough to deal with the issue as it arises?

Not just guilt, I don't think. Why would one feel guilty about deep fear or worry? And I'm not sure most of us feel guilty about being angry....at mistreatment on our job for instance. We might feel self righteous in fact.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #132
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 80 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
By identifying, you mean naming? Identifying anger as anger, for instance?

By identification is meant any movement that abruptly ends progressing observation of the fact of, say anger.

Tom Paine wrote:
We might feel self righteous in fact.

guilt is to condemnation as self righteousness is to justification, both, an after the event phenomenon.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #133
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan shivan wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

By identifying, you mean naming? Identifying anger as anger, for instance?
By identification is meant any movement that abruptly ends progressing observation of the fact of, say anger.

OK, but identification happens, right? It's part of our conditioning to divide from the anger or fear and try to act upon it or modify it. "You shouldn't be angry....you should be brave, not frightened." We've been told this since a very early age. I went back to the start of the thread and found the following in post 5. Not sure if it relates to your point about 'progressing observation'.

Rich Nolet wrote:
May I suggest this quote from K. ? Maybe it can clarify a bit of this question of awareness and choiceless observation that he is talking about.

Awareness is the silent and choiceless observation of what is.

Poblems will always exist where the activities of the self are dominant. To be aware which are and which are not the activities of the self needs constant vigilance. This vigilance is not disciplined attention, but an extensive awareness which is choiceless. Disciplined attention gives strength to the self; it becomes a substitute and a dependence. Awareness, on the other hand, is not self-induced, nor is it the outcome of practice; it is understanding the whole content of the problem, the hidden as well as the superficial. The surface must be understood for the hidden to show itself; the hidden cannot be exposed if the surface mind is not quiet. This whole process is not verbal, nor is it a matter of mere experience. Verbalization indicates dullness of mind; and experience, being cumulative, makes for repetitiousness. Awareness is not a matter of determination, for purposive direction is resistance, which tends towards exclusiveness. Awareness is the silent and choiceless observation of what is; in this awareness the problem unrolls itself, and thus it is fully and completely understood.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #134
Thumb_leaping_fire_frog_by_sirenofchaos natarajan shivan India 80 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Not sure if it relates to your point about 'progressing observation'.

Rich Nolet wrote (quoting K):

Yes Tom, I think it is inter-related. The interest to observe, to be vigilant, if it has to acquire the nature of constancy (and therefore choice-less and purposeless) in existential terms, has to have it's origin in our moment to moment relationships with our environment and a sensitivity to conflict arising thereof. How one is awakened to that sensitivity is purely a personal matter and can't be induced by any means without risking dependence on a long term to a system (traditional religious practices) or by bringing the element of purpose in the investigations at the very start.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #135
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1299 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How do I observe my anger without condemnation or justification!

You can't can you? As long there is a 'me' in me, I will react to anger, worry, sorrow from the 'conditioned' self. When there is no 'me', when 'me' has disappeared, a different dynamic could take over: 'choiceless awareness'. Then what K. said and what Jean often quoted, makes sense,: "You want to know my secret? I don't mind what happens."

That's why I find his words referring to being "as nothing" so important and worthy of 'pondering',(as well as quoting).

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 27 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #136
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
Randall seemed to be saying, no...that all we're doing here is sharing knowledge and information....opinions, beliefs.

Yes, this is what goes on here. A big part of that is the comfort/security that sharing information with like minded (and argueing with un-like minded persons) brings. Much like when discussing our favorite football teams brings pleasure/comfort/security.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #137
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
So we're at least heading in the right direction?

Do you see how quickly we will grab at something that makes us feel good (and reject things that do not), even though it directly contradicts the things Krishnamurti talks about? This is the power and lure of using the "choice" mechanism of the human mind. How about them LA Rams!!

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #138
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

So we're at least heading in the right direction?
Do you see how quickly we will grab at something that makes us feel good (and reject things that do not),

That was purely a question to Nat, randall... relating to what he wrote....not something I have concluded or believe.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #139
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
A big part of that is the comfort/security that sharing information with like minded (and argueing with un-like minded persons) brings. Much like when discussing our favorite football teams brings pleasure/comfort/security.

Of course...coming here may in fact be an activity that brings psychological comfort....not questioning that. Whether or not something else might happen....or not? That's an open question as far as I'm concerned. I know personally speaking, I've read messages here that really opened some doors... shined some light in the darkness.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #140
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
that really opened some doors... shined some light

I will just respectfully suggest Tom, that what you describe here is a form of comfort/security.

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Sun, 26 Mar 2017 #141
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
Of course...coming here may in fact be an activity that brings psychological comfort....not questioning that. Whether or not something else might happen....or not? That's an open question as far as I'm concerned.

So you think you can have your cake (comfort/security) and eat it also (find something other than pleasure/comfort/security)? Hope is comfort/security in disguise.

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Mon, 27 Mar 2017 #142
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

that really opened some doors... shined some light
I will just respectfully suggest Tom, that what you describe here is a form of comfort/security.

Insight is comfort/security? Of course it can be taken up by 'me' and used as such. But the insight itself is just that...insight...seeing the truth about oneself...about the human mind.

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Mon, 27 Mar 2017 #143
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
Insight is comfort/security?

The idea of insight (which you are thinking about) is comfort/security.

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Mon, 27 Mar 2017 #144
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1214 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I realize now that I never really understood what perception is. Via your graphic examples above one sees that perception is dependent on one's point of view, or conditioning. Or at least perception can be subject to such influence.

To me those graphic examples told me recent days a lot more !

So is in a moving world one's point of view always unic -
no one can be at the same time in the same place !
So one always have to take into account that what the others are saying
could also be true without you being wrong !
Also left and right and/or wrong and right are oposites of where it turns around !
And what if where it turns around is not the whole picture, take for example an 8,
then both are right at the same time !

From the second picture another thing tells me that the focus is partly the whole.
The dark sides reveals the light (candle) and the light reveals the darksides (the faces).

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

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Mon, 27 Mar 2017 #145
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Insight is comfort/security?
The idea of insight (which you are thinking about) is comfort/security.

Looking for it or thinking about it, yes.....wanting more. Makes sense. And discussing K on the forum is looking for comfort/security? No different than discussing the Mets and Yankees? It's possible the motivation is the same....to escape suffering. Our home life, or life at work is full of conflict and suffering. We pick up a book of K's talks and look for an answer to this miserable way of living. Is this no different than turning on the football game on tv...fundamentally? K obviously felt it was very different or he wouldn't have spent his lifetime talking. He felt it was important for his close associates to carry on talking about the 'teachings' after he died according to Mrs Z's biography.

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Mon, 27 Mar 2017 #146
Thumb_nolet Rich Nolet Canada 288 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
To me those graphic examples told me recent days a lot more !

So is in a moving world one's point of view always unic -
no one can be at the same time in the same place !
So one always have to take into account that what the others are saying
could also be true without you being wrong !
Also left and right and/or wrong and right are oposites of where it turns around !
And what if where it turns around is not the whole picture, take for example an 8,
then both are right at the same time !

From the second picture another thing tells me that the focus is partly the whole.
The dark sides reveals the light (candle) and the light reveals the darksides (the faces).

Respectfully Wim, I wonder were you are going with this. Are you saying that there is many truth ? Or that everybody is right... and wrong ? Our perception can be unclear. We could be looking through an illusion or through an idea etc. Though what I think would be important to understand is: can we perceive reality ?

K: And to find out if there is a solution to all our complex innumerable problems, is there one seeing, one perception, one observation that frees completely the whole of this structure which man has put together, psychologically?

Aren't we analysing instead of looking ? Is there such a perception, such an observation ? Without it , is there any freedom ?

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Mon, 27 Mar 2017 #147
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1214 posts in this forum Offline

Rich Nolet wrote:
Respectfully Wim, I wonder were you are going with this. Are you saying that there is many truth ? Or that everybody is right... and wrong ? Our perception can be unclear. We could be looking through an illusion or through an idea etc. Though what I think would be important to understand is: can we perceive reality ?

I was going nowhere with this only it became clear to me the many pitfalls there are in how one see things and interpret them.

True are for me the things we can verify, like are we talking about a digit six, nine or may be eight ?

Truth is from another level and like Krishnaji said:

Madras, India | Public Talk 26th October, 1947

You are mentally confused and you pray. That is, you petition or you supplicate somebody to tell you what to do. To whom are you praying? You say to God. But surely God or Truth is something unknown and which cannot be formulated.

.

Rich Nolet wrote:
Aren't we analysing instead of looking ?

Looking into this I realized the difference between perceiving and observation, they are both very susceptible to influence of the 'ME'.

Rich Nolet wrote:

Is there such a perception, such an observation ? Without it , is there any freedom ?

Awareness seems to be the level of clear perception and observation
but at least I know now the pitfalls.

Truth will unfold itself for those who enquire their own actions and only to them and for them and to or for no one else.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 27 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 27 Mar 2017 #148
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
He felt it was important for his close associates to carry on talking about the 'teachings' after he died according to Mrs Z's biography.

;) I think he probably did not suggest that the apostles go out and spread the word of K.

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Mon, 27 Mar 2017 #149
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Tom Paine wrote:
K obviously felt it was very different or he wouldn't have spent his lifetime talking

Krishanmurti, speaking from deep fundamental Insight into the human condition, is a very different phenomenon than folks here (and elsewhere) at Kinfonet playing pitch and catch with ideas/beliefs/knowledge gleaned from the things he said.

Stuff happens

This post was last updated by randall merryman (account deleted) Mon, 27 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 27 Mar 2017 #150
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3137 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:

;) I think he probably did not suggest that the apostles go out and spread the word of K.

Read the book :)

M.Z's bio that is.

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