Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Craving


Displaying posts 121 - 150 of 186 in total
Sun, 05 Mar 2017 #121
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
You have claimed on many occasions to "know the truth" and much more.

Do you see a problem with self knowledge Jack ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 05 Mar 2017 #122
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
You have claimed on many occasions to "know the truth" and much more.

Do you see a problem with self knowledge Jack ?

Of course not Jean. But I do see a very big problem, a serious health problem, with deluding yourself into believing that only you see the "facts" the "truth".

As I have already explained elsewhere you seem to be caught in an image you have of yourself which is in defiance of reality. And this intractable belief in your own infallibility is keeping not only you from effectively communicating with others but is, in fact, keeping this part of the Kinfonet forum from carrying on any kind of rational discussion.

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Sun, 05 Mar 2017 #123
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
But I do see a very big problem, a serious health problem, with deluding yourself into believing that only you see the "facts" the "truth".

Why is this such a "very big problem" for you Jack ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 05 Mar 2017 #124
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Why is this such a "very big problem" for you Jack ?

Why isn't the answer to this question obvious to you Jean? Because your obsession with believing you are the only one who knows anything is destructive to any dialogue you get into.

Because if someone thinks he already knows then there is no discovery, no exploration, no insight, no life. Knowing is based on memory, on the past which is not a living, changing thing. Rather it is a dead thing.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 05 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 05 Mar 2017 #125
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Why isn't the answer to this question obvious to you Jean? Because your obsession with believing you are the only one who knows anything is destructive to any dialogue you get into.

But why is it a problem for YOU Jack ?

Why not let things be as they are instead of offering a resistance to it ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 05 Mar 2017 #126
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 858 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
But why is it a problem for YOU Jack ?

Why not let things be as they are instead of offering a resistance to it ?

Jean, if anyone on the forum thinks they have a monopoly on the truth, it's a problem for all of us as it has a negative impact on dialogue. Jean, do you feel you have anything to learn from dialogue here with others?

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Sun, 05 Mar 2017 #127
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Jean, do you feel you have anything to learn from dialogue here with others?

Of course we can all learn from the discussions on this forum ... especially when it results from the observation of our emotional reactions ... much more than from the 'content' of the discussions in fact ... because discussions always happen under the control of our rational mind (which is conditioned) and our defense system ... therefore limiting the interactions to our 'comfort' zone ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 05 Mar 2017.

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Sun, 05 Mar 2017 #128
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Jean, if anyone on the forum thinks they have a monopoly on the truth

And btw I never said I had the "monopoly of truth" ... this is an absurdity, truth belongs to no one ... only lies belong to their author ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #129
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
But why is it a problem for YOU Jack ?

Jean, can't you see that this is a problem not just for you or me but the whole forum. Your insistence that you already know everything and your patronizing, didactic approach to posting keeps any meaningful dialogue from happening.

Look at all the time and space we are spending on your psychological problems instead of discussing things directly related to what K pointed out. This is what the problem is Jean.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 06 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #130
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Jean, do you feel you have anything to learn from dialogue here with others?

A very relevant question to ask. Unfortunately you have yet to get a straight forward and simply answer.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #131
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
And btw I never said I had the "monopoly of truth" ... this is an absurdity, truth belongs to no one ... only lies belong to their author ...

Then why have you stated on several occasions that you see "facts" not images and that you know the truth? You seem to be the only one stating categorically that you always deal with facts while the rest of us only deal in images. Sounds like a monopoly to me.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #132
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Then why have you stated on several occasions that you see "facts" not images and that you know the truth? You seem to be the only one stating categorically that you always deal with facts while the rest of us only deal in images. Sounds like a monopoly to me.

This is more about image making Jack ... can you let go of all the past, all your accumulated knowledge, and start a relationship with a fresh look ? Can you do this Jack ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #133
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Jean, if anyone on the forum thinks they have a monopoly on the truth, it's a problem for all of us as it has a negative impact on dialogue. Jean, do you feel you have anything to learn from dialogue here with others?

Hi Sean, for sure we get people on the forum, and they go on and on about images, ego, ideals, they see in others, but never in themselves. And of course it impacts the dialogue as you say. But before we say it's negative or positive, what are we looking to achieve here? Or is it that we see that the dialogue is suffering in some sense?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #134
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
This is more about image making Jack ... can you let go of all the past, all your accumulated knowledge, and start a relationship with a fresh look ? Can you do this Jack ?

The pressing question for you Jean is can you let go of the past? Of your belief that you know the facts, that you know the truth? This is the image you have of yourself. Also can you let go of all the slogans you have memorized? All of the idealized beliefs you carry with you? You actually worship authority. That's why you are always quoting someone or other. Do you see that?

Jean it takes two people letting go of their images of themselves and others before there can be a relationship not just one. Until and unless you also let go of the images you have of yourself and others there can be no relationship and no dialogue. Don't you see that you can not dialogue with someone who thinks they already knows? Who doesn't discuss things with others but rather "corrects" others until they fulfill the image of you think they should be. Thinking that you know the "facts" the "truth" is the image you have of yourself.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #135
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
Or is it that we see that the dialogue is suffering in some sense?

Dialogue might not be the 'ultimate' goal ...

What are we looking for ? Endless discussions ? ... or freedom from the self and its endless chattering ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #136
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
What are we looking for ? Endless discussions ? ... or freedom from the self and its endless chattering ?

Is that what you are looking for Jean? Freedom from the self and its endless chattering? Do you have goals Jean?

This is a discussion forum Jean. Not a forum where one person comes here with a superiority complex telling others what are facts and what are truths?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #137
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
Or is it that we see that the dialogue is suffering in some sense?

Would you expect self to surrender without suffering ?

For sure the ending of self implies a great deal of suffering (in oneself and in the world too), the release of all our beliefs and attachments and social status ...

The story of the camel and the rich man ... and the needle hole ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #138
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Would you expect self to surrender without suffering ?

Jean, the self and suffering are not separate. The self is suffering just as it is greed and anger and all of the other things that thought invents, feels. Why do you write like they are two different things? Have you ever really read K? And if so have you understood it?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 06 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #139
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Jean, the self and suffering are not separate.

Right, suffering is a consequence of self ... no self implies no suffering, ie. no resistance to 'what is' ... total surrender ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #140
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 858 posts in this forum Offline

dave h wrote:
Hi Sean, for sure we get people on the forum, and they go on and on about images, ego, ideals, they see in others, but never in themselves. And of course it impacts the dialogue as you say. But before we say it's negative or positive, what are we looking to achieve here? Or is it that we see that the dialogue is suffering in some sense?

Hi dave. I think the dialogue gets blocked if there is a lack of openness and listening. I don't think it's really possible to explore K's teachings unless we meet here as equals and learn from each other.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #141
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Right, suffering is a consequence of self ..

No Jean it is self. You are making the classic mistake of separating the sufferer from suffering. The observer from the observed.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #142
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1381 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I think the dialogue gets blocked if there is a lack of openness and listening. I don't think it's really possible to explore K's teachings unless we meet here as equals and learn from each other.

Would it be a good idea if the two men .. J and J .. create their own A Noisy Space ??

They Love each other so intimately it seems we are disturbing that !!!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #143
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I think the dialogue gets blocked if there is a lack of openness and listening.

Would you like a forum where everyone listens to your ideas and opinions without bringing any contradiction ? ... do you want to remain in your 'comfort' zone and not be 'disturbed' or 'upset' by others ?

Aren't you ready to accept some kind of (small) challenge ? What is so threatening for you in this forum ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Mon, 06 Mar 2017.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #144
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Would you like a forum where everyone listens to your ideas and opinions without bringing any contradiction ?

Would you like a forum where everyone tells you their ideas and opinions, constantly contradicting themselves ?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #145
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Would you expect self to surrender without suffering ?

Expecting some kind of result ?

The story of the camel and the rich man ... and the needle hole ...

Nice image :-)

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #146
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
What are we looking for ? Endless discussions ? ... or freedom from the self and its endless chattering ?

Looking for some kind of result Jean ? A method to get there ?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #147
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 858 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Would you like a forum where everyone listens to your ideas and opinions without bringing any contradiction ? ... do you want to remain in your 'comfort' zone and not be 'disturbed' or 'upset' by others ?

Aren't you ready to accept some kind of (small) challenge ? What is so threatening for you in this forum ?

Hi Jean. If you don't mind may saying so, you have jumped to a lot of conclusions here and seem to have an image of me. I think it's much better for dialogue if we stick to facts. Can I ask you if you think openness and listening are important to dialogue?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #148
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I think it's much better for dialogue if we stick to facts.

Certainly so ... not only for dialogue but also for the peace in the world ... and the peace of mind ...

Can I ask you if you think openness and listening are important to dialogue?

Yes, however this does not mean that there will be an absence of contradictions ... I think we also have to accept disagreements and some kinds of 'discomforts' too ... total consistency can never be found in the realm of thought ...

As B. Teulada once said in this forum: "K is not for the faint-hearted" :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #149
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Would it be a good idea if the two men .. J and J .. create their own A Noisy Space ??

It would be a good idea of J and J were removed from this forum so that the rest of you could at least attempt to have a discussion without the constant blather, the 8550 plus posts, that for the most part are self-aggrandizing misconceptions and misunderstandings that derail almost every thread. If on the other hand you like being awash in irrelevant nonsense that's your business.

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Mon, 06 Mar 2017 #150
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1381 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
It would be a good idea of J and J were removed from this forum so that the rest of you could at least attempt to have a discussion without the constant blather, the 8550 plus posts, that for the most part are self-aggrandizing misconceptions and misunderstandings that derail almost every thread. If on the other hand you like being awash in irrelevant nonsense that's your business.

Really Jack?

I was going to miss your contributions, it is such a wonderful example to see so passionately engaged ego with some distance;-)
A good example for those who want to see it.

Moreover, you also contribute attractive without your alter ego !!

But as I have already suggested, passionate lovers should do it in a private space !!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Displaying posts 121 - 150 of 186 in total
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