Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Thu, 02 Feb 2017 #151
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes, but as I said not so much by the content of discussions (which are sometimes interesting) than by the observation of emotional reactions, when people stick to their own beliefs, opinions and illusions and create conflicts out of that ...

Hi Jean. I think this brings us back to your question about what Krishnamurti means when he talks about the heart. It strikes me that there needs to be a certain quality of heart in everything we observe. I mean, it's not a question of observing coldly like a scientist looking down a microscope looking for information only but rather observing in a human way with empathy and understanding of what we're observing. Does that make sense?

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Thu, 02 Feb 2017 #152
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
I mean, it's not a question of observing coldly like a scientist looking down a microscope looking for information only but rather observing in a human way with empathy and understanding of what we're observing. Does that make sense?

It makes sense when we come to see (and recognize) that the behaviour and emotions we can observe in others are also (even partly) within ourselves ... and I think this is also one of the great teachings of K ... because after all, we are the world ...

Wouldn't this be the very 'definition' of 'empathy' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Thu, 02 Feb 2017.

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Thu, 02 Feb 2017 #153
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
It makes sense when we come to see (and recognize) that the behaviour and emotions we can observe in others are also (even partly) within ourselves ... and I think this is also one of the great teachings of K ... because after all, we are the world ...

Hello Jean and all. Behaviour and emotions in others are in ourselves. Yes, I would say that all living things are connected but the lives that many of us lead, so far removed from nature, makes it difficult for us to have this fully present in our minds every day. Perhaps some Native American peoples, who lived much closer to nature, were able to feel this connection between all living things much more than an urban dwelling modern human being. Jack recently talked about the importance of connecting with nature and I completely agree with this.

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Thu, 02 Feb 2017 #154
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
So, in fact, we are living in the past because all that takes time and all we are doing is accumulating information about ourselves. Is there a learning process that is not dependent on time?

Not quite so, because observation itself - the seeing - can only happen in the present moment ... no thought (hence no time) is needed to SEE ... the problem (ie time) only comes in when thought is 'added' to what is seen, when things are 'labelled', evaluated, judged, resisted etc ... and this kind of thought is only a distortion of 'what is' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 02 Feb 2017 #155
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Jack recently talked about the importance of connecting with nature and I completely agree with this.

Yes it is easy to be connected to nature ... quite another problem to be connected with others in real life situations ... as seen here quite often too ...

and indeed life in big cities is quite challenging ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 02 Feb 2017 #156
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes it is easy to be connected to nature .

Well, you can buy a plant easily enough. I was thinking about a slightly deeper connection Jean.

This post was last updated by Sean Hen Thu, 02 Feb 2017.

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Thu, 02 Feb 2017 #157
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes it is easy to be connected to nature ...

Is it easy to be connected to Nature? What does it mean to be connected to Nature? Are you connected to Nature?

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Thu, 02 Feb 2017 #158
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Yes it is easy to be connected to nature ... quite another problem to be connected with others in real life situations .

So it reads like you are saying that being connected to Nature is not a "real life situation"? Is that what you are implying?

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Thu, 02 Feb 2017 #159
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Jean Gatti wrote:

Yes it is easy to be connected to nature .
Well, you can buy a plant easily enough.

:)

Let it Be

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Fri, 03 Feb 2017 #160
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:

Jean Gatti wrote:

Yes it is easy to be connected to nature ... quite another problem to be connected with others in real life situations .

So it reads like you are saying that being connected to Nature is not a "real life situation"? Is that what you are implying?

Well in some sense yes, when you take a retreat into nature and aloneness, there is a kind of escape from relationships ... that's why I say it is easier to deal with nature where there is no challenge of relationships with other people ...

The real challenge is in relationships, isn't it so Jack ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 03 Feb 2017 #161
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
You say that the key to the learning process is to observe the emotional reactions of your self and others. I am merely pointing out the undeniable fact that this takes time.

Observation itself does not take time ... what takes time is about thinking (judging, evaluating, rejecting etc) of what is observed ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 03 Feb 2017 #162
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
My dear old thing ...

Maybe you could take a look at the forum guidelines about courtesy ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Fri, 03 Feb 2017 #163
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well in some sense yes, when you take a retreat into nature and aloneness, there is a kind of escape from relationships ... that's why I say it is easier to deal with nature where there is no challenge of relationships with other people ...

If one equates being connected to Nature as only a walk in the woods while alone then there is no understanding of what being connected, related, to Nature is. Or of what Nature itself is.

I can cite no particular quote but K referred to Nature as that which Mankind has not invented or changed. Something that is not a product of thought. One is connected to Nature when thought is not.

Nature is more than the birds and the bees and trees, mountains and so on. Nature is Life as it is and this can be accessed wherever you are. But most of us are too busy or too desperately trying to survive in this world to see, feel, life around us.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 03 Feb 2017.

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Fri, 03 Feb 2017 #164
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
In the UK it's an expression of familiarity.

No problem then :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 04 Feb 2017 #165
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
There is an interval of time between something and the emotional reaction to it and therefore if you are observing a reaction then basically you are observing the past.

No, because the emotional reaction is what happens NOW ... therefore it is 'what is' ... here and now ... and when you observe what happens now (ie 'what is'), there is no time implied in this observation ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 04 Feb 2017 #166
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
After all, if one is always right there is no opportunity to learn anything.

What is this 'learning' we are speaking of Jamie ? Is it the accumulation of more knowledge, more information ? Don't you have already enough of that ?

Or is it something 'ganz andere', totally different ? Is it not something we have to 'unlearn' rather ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 04 Feb 2017 #167
Thumb_baboon-9186 dave h United Kingdom 1165 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
jamie f wrote:

In the UK it's an expression of familiarity.
No problem then :-)

It would have been problem for you if it wasn't? :-)

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Sun, 05 Feb 2017 #168
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Or is it something 'ganz andere', totally different ? Is it not something we have to 'unlearn' rather ?

No. It's not. Jamie f is correct. Unlearning is meaningless. Learning may be something quite different from what you think it is. Learning as K spoke of it is not the process of accumulation. It is something that is always complete and always in the present.

To understand what K means about essentially anything one has to first drop the old definitions, conditioning, opinions and beliefs. And then don't blindly accept what K is pointing out but find out, see it for yourself otherwise you are just repeating what K has said and that is meaningless.

What do we mean by learning?
Is there learning when you are merely accumulating knowledge, gathering information? That is one kind of learning, is it not? As a student of engineering, you study mathematics, and so on; you are learning, informing yourself about the subject. You are accumulating knowledge in order to use that knowledge in practical ways. Your learning is accumulative, additive. Now, when the mind is merely taking on, adding, acquiring, is it learning? Or is learning something entirely different? I say the additive process that we now call learning is not learning at all. It is merely a cultivation of memory, which becomes mechanical; and a mind that functions mechanically, like a machine, is not capable of learning. A machine is never capable of learning, except in the additive sense. Learning is something quite different, as I shall try to show you.
A mind that is learning never says, 'I know,' because knowledge is always partial, whereas learning is complete all the time. Learning does not mean starting with a certain amount of knowledge, and adding to it further knowledge. That is not learning at all; it is a purely mechanistic process. To me, learning is something entirely different. I am learning about myself from moment to moment, and the myself is extraordinarily vital; it is living, moving; it has no beginning and no end. When I say, 'I know myself,' learning has come to an end in accumulated knowledge. Learning is never cumulative; it is a movement of knowing which has no beginning and no end.
J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life

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Sun, 05 Feb 2017 #169
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
'Unlearn' is just another process that requires time. It is not the same as putting something down and simply walking away from it.

But 'unlearning' simply means the dropping of all accumulated knowledge ... it does not require time at all ...what requires time is the 'recalling' of this memorized knowledge ... when one tries to 're-cognize' a situation by 'naming' (or 'labelling') it (which is knowledge) ... which means that you superimpose the past (ie knowledge) on a present situation ... and this process of 're-cognition' requires time ...

nb: btw the word re-cognition itself comes from ancient Greek 'cognos' which means 'knowledge'

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 05 Feb 2017.

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Sun, 05 Feb 2017 #170
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
which means that you superimpose the past (ie knowledge) on a present situation

Now a new question arises:

WHY do we want to 're-cognize' present situation by assimilating this present moment to past situations (ie our knowledge) ?

Why do we do that ? Why do we want to 'know' ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 05 Feb 2017 #171
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
I said in post #171:

jamie f wrote:
you said in post #156:

Do you need to prove something ? to enter into an argumentation of the kind "I am right and you are wrong" ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sun, 05 Feb 2017.

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Mon, 06 Feb 2017 #172
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Do you need to prove something ? to enter into an argumentation of the kind "I am right and you are wrong" ?

Jean when someone offers the olive branch of peace and extends their hand to you you don't spit in their face. You must be very lonely.

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Fri, 21 Sep 2018 #173
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Jack, i'm not going to swap insults with you.

Jack doing the same evils . Jamie f account is deleted!
I wonder how many others who had engaged with Jack their account was deleted. He provokes newcomers to show off. And at the same time makes you feel sorry for him.
Multiple personalty.He has the same disease as our president has.

This post was last updated by One Self Fri, 21 Sep 2018.

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Fri, 21 Sep 2018 #174
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5764 posts in this forum Offline

Goodman B wrote:
I wonder how many others who had engaged with Jack their account was deleted

Wow, you went to a lot of trouble to dig this up. What's wrong with you Badman? You have so many opinions and so very few facts.

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Mon, 29 Oct 2018 #175
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
I would possibly feel responsible about that but looking around me I can see that nobody else has changed either. Maybe humans cannot change. Maybe that's the simple truth - we cannot change.

Well, the ego doesn't change, it is always the same old ego interfering with present.

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Mon, 29 Oct 2018 #176
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
I would possibly feel responsible about that but looking around me I can see that nobody else has changed either. Maybe humans cannot change. Maybe that's the simple truth - we cannot change.

Well, the ego doesn't change, it is always the same old ego interfering with present.

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Tue, 30 Oct 2018 #177
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

To me change means letting go of the past. Living in the past is what most of us do. We hang onto the past for safety. Surely technical knowledge is necessary otherwise we would still be living in caves. But what is the necessity of psychological knowledge that is accumulated in relationships? Why should one remember all the insults and flatteries? What place does it have in a new day like today?
The new can be when the old is not. Through negation the new is . But we want to 'become' something all the time so that makes change difficult as you said .

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Tue, 30 Oct 2018 #178
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
Have you tried living without an ego? It isn't easy. ....

Of course, that is a joke, but there is an element of truth in it.

HI Jamie,

Could there be a rememberence of such an event ??
If it was difficult it was your ego at work, I think !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 31 Oct 2018 #179
Thumb_screenshot_20180710-010635 One Self United States 1468 posts in this forum Offline

Can "becoming" and transformation go together? What happens when I am becoming something all the time? I am escaping from my loneliness. And how can there be transformation when thought keeps trying to dominate and tame the mind in one particular direction? Change if it has a direction then it is no change. K says that through time you cannot get to the timeless.
I think it is more important to discuss why we don't change as human beings ? Is it because we have lost the flame of discontent ? Is that it? How did we destroy our minds? Wrong food? I say wrong values have made us all dull and weary. I say having wrong values, having fictitious values.

This post was last updated by One Self Wed, 31 Oct 2018.

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Thu, 01 Nov 2018 #180
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 891 posts in this forum Offline

jamie f wrote:
I would possibly feel responsible about that but looking around me I can see that nobody else has changed either. Maybe humans cannot change. Maybe that's the simple truth - we cannot change.

Hi Jamie. I don't know if anyone has changed or if anyone can change. What I do know is that we find it very difficult indeed to be fully conscious in the present moment. You mentioned that you'd been posting on Kinfonet on and off for nearly twenty years. Others have been doing the same, I'm sure. I suppose that anyone who has been in contact with the teachings for such a long time may well have some understanding of them. This forum gives us the opportunity to deepen that understanding. Would you agree with that?

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