Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Clive aren't you being presumptous?


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Mon, 19 Dec 2016 #31
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
(Jean) thinks he alone is the keeper of truth and he is here to instruct the rest of us. He has admitted to as much.

This. Now why would this be a problem? Because it's a total denial of what K spoke of....a journey together without one leading and another following. A journey into uncharted waters. Of course the situation here is 'what it is', and one can simply 'take it or leave it'.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 20 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #32
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Now image making Tom ? Do you see how you make things personal now ?

Why ?

Sorry....I myself don't like personal attacks, so let's deal with your posts rather than with the personal image. You're responses seem repetitive, robotic, mechanical, formulaic.....like a robot. But you're perfectly free to continue in that vein. Just don't expect to have a fruitful dialog or discussion. QOTD:

"Wisdom is born of the intensity of living, not of intellectual theories, whether they be true or false;"

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Tue, 20 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #33
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Sorry....I myself don't like personal attacks, so let's deal with your posts rather than with the personal image.

ok Tom this would be wise ... let us play the ball and not the player ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #34
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Just don't expect to have a fruitful dialog or discussion.

It depends what you call a "fruitful dialog" Tom ... is it a dialog where everyone remains in his 'comfort zone' ? where we can reassure ourselves with hearing what we want to hear ?

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #35
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
It depends what you call a "fruitful dialog" Tom ... is it a dialog where everyone remains in his 'comfort zone' ? where we can reassure ourselves with hearing what we want to hear ?

You just can't shut up can you Jean? What's wrong with you? Most people have at least some feeling when it is time to just shut up and listen. But not you. You have to use every opportunity to preach, lecture. To be the "teacher". This shows an appalling need to feel that you are someone. Your ego is really out of control.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #36
Thumb_3135 Jo D United Kingdom 38 posts in this forum Offline

My wish is not to enable or defend. Tom was baffled by Jean's behaviour, I was just looking at what might lie behind the behaviour. You have said before that he has other characters on forums, so it may be that the 'Jean Gatti' character is designed for the purpose it is achieving.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #37
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Jo D wrote:
'Jean Gatti' character is designed for the purpose it is achieving.

Except that the "Jean Gatti" character is not by design. Jean has an image of himself of being "enlightened". A statement which in and of itself is contradictory. And one his writings consistently contradict and exposed as a fraud. . Most of what he writes makes no sense and confirms his deep confusion.

And I don't think Tom was baffled by Jean in the way you think. I think Tom pretty much understands Jean's problems and the affect Jean is having on this forum. Which is not a positive one.

And what exactly is Jean achieving? Disharmony, confusion, deflection of intelligent discussion. And most seriously a gross misunderstanding of even the most obvious things K pointed out during his lifetime.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 20 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #38
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I don't want to discuss the initial subject but say something about what the thread is really about now, which is Jean Gatti. My natural inclination is to side with you Jean - the outsider against the group. I really want to.
I think the problem is that all the arguments are kept within this narrow field. Someone might make a comment and then Jean, you'll reply within the perameters of the debate. You'll get a question about the self, reality, truth and you'll give your answer. But to my mind it's all theoretical as befits the forum. If you don't mind me saying Jean, you are very Buddha-like in that respect.
I'd like to widen it out though, you know personalise it a bit. None of your detractors could deny that you are always ready to answer but I'd like you to respond outside your particular area of expertise. I'd like to ask what else you do, for instance, do you post like this on other websites? If so, can we know what ones? Do you exercise the views you express in the way you live your life outside this forum? What is your life outside this forum - You know, with all the posts you make here what else occupies your life?
Any answers about that - well any personal business really - could be set alongside the views you express here. I'm not being critical here, I'm just interested in you. I always want to know why one man stands up against everyone else.
You might say it's none of my business and normally I'd agree with you, but as one of your main cheerleaders here I'd want you to present a more full picture of yourself because I'm sensing that otherwise whatever you express isn't being listened to because people don't feel they're relating to a real person there. This is an extreme case I think and to enhance your credibilty on this forum I'd think that would be a good idea. It's like when an unpopular Prime Minister is told that they need to have another election to show they have a mandate.
Jean, let us know, who are you?

Respect,

Brian.

This post was last updated by Brian Smith (account deleted) Tue, 20 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #39
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Jesus H Christ Brian. You have got to be kidding. You like Donald Trump too because he is so intelligent and honest. Right? Do you also think Donald is Buddha-like?

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #40
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I'm only asking questions Jack. I'm just wanting Jean to respond outside the normal area of debate here. All the conversations follow the same lines here - obviously they would because we're talking about K, which is at it should be, after all it's a K forum.
But now it seems that most of the threads have become more about Jean himself, so why not let Jean talk about himself?

PS I say Buddah-like as in the sense of someone who speaks with a sense of authority.

This post was last updated by Brian Smith (account deleted) Tue, 20 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #41
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
But now it seems that most of the threads have become more about Jean himself, so why not talk about Jean himself?

Because this forum is not about Jean Gatti. You are doing exactly what he wants the rest of us to do and that is focus on Jean Gatti. You have no idea the damage you are doing to any possibility of any rational discussion about what K pointed out.

Jean is a narcissist who thrives on attention. That's why he goads people. It's the only damn way he can get anyone to consistently pay any attention to him.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #42
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
I'm only asking questions Jack.

No you're not only just asking questions. You have already come to the conclusion that Jean is Buddha-like. Why don't you just call Adolph Hitler a Rabbi? Or do you already?

Let me guess. You are trolling this site? Purposely trying to stir something up. It's either that or you are one of the most obtuse people I have ever come across.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 20 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #43
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I understand that Jack. The forum is supposed to be a K forum. But it isn't at the moment. It's a fact. I came back after a few months where I couldn't be bothered because of the nonsense and found it's the same thing going on. The same arguments, the same replies, the same circular world. And the same thing is Jean. It's Jean, Jean, Jean, So, let's find out about Jean I thought. Why not? Let's go personal. Let's try something different. Let's see what Jean might want to say.

This post was last updated by Brian Smith (account deleted) Tue, 20 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #44
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
No you're not only just asking questions. You have already come to the conclusion that Jean is Buddha-like. Why don't you just call Adolph Hitler a Rabbi? Or do you already?

Let me guess. You are trolling this site? Purposely trying to stir something up. It's either that or you are one of the most obtuse people I have ever come across.

I'm really not trolling the site here Jack, I came here in all good faith.
Anyway, if you look above I'd already ammended my previous post with a PS to say how what I meant by Buddah-like was to mean that he felt he was making his statements from a position of authority.
Also I should add that my previous post was a cross post with yours.

This post was last updated by Brian Smith (account deleted) Tue, 20 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #45
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
Anyway, if you look above I'd already ammended my previous post with a PS to say how what I meant by Buddah-like was to mean that he felt he was making his statements from a position of authority.
Also I should add that my previous post was a cross post with yours.

Try to comprehend this Brian. It is very important if you are really interested in K and not just Jean Gatti.

Buddha was not an authority

Krishnamurti was not an authority

Jean thinks he is an authority which is why he has been so widely ignored on here. If you think appearing to be an authority makes someone "Buddha-like" I would suggest you read something by K and the Buddha's followers to straighten yourself out about what authority is and of how it is an illusion.

If you are just bored Brian why not try the Tolle site. It must be a lot more entertaining for you than this site. Also, you will find Jean on there under the name of Phil somebody (or so someone from that site told me that was the name he is using). You can't miss him. He will be the obnoxious one.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 20 Dec 2016.

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Tue, 20 Dec 2016 #46
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Brian Smith wrote:
I don't want to discuss the initial subject but say something about what the thread is really about now, which is Jean Gatti.

Well Brian I really do appreciate your 'support' but I am not the one who did personalize the debate here, and I don't want to.

However to answer one of the questions: no, I am not currently participating in any other forum (though I did in the past) as I don't have much time left for that.

For the rest I prefer to stick to K's teachings and try to bring some understanding on the most obscure aspects of the teachings (not always easy :-). But also as I said earlier, it is always of interest to observe the emotional reactions of some posters (including myself at times) in the light of the teachings.

What irritates us is an opportunity to learn on ourselves.

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Wed, 21 Dec 2016 #47
Thumb_3135 Jo D United Kingdom 38 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
And what exactly is Jean achieving? Disharmony, confusion, deflection of intelligent discussion. And most seriously a gross misunderstanding of even the most obvious things K pointed out during his lifetime.

It is puzzling though isn't it that a person who has been involved with K's teachings for so long, is SEEMINGLY not benefiting from that. Someone who would purposely choose to aggravate and goad others even through something as simple as excessive repetition. It just seems like an act that is purposely designed to specifically trigger reaction in others. I am not suggesting it is a smart way of doing things, just that it has an objective.

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Wed, 21 Dec 2016 #48
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
Anger is clearly a resistance to 'what is'

Please define the term "clearly" a bit, if you would? What aspect of the mind sees something without distortion/bias/interpretation?

Stuff happens

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Thu, 22 Dec 2016 #49
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
let us play the ball and not the player

Yes, we now see "clearly" that the only options available are to play intellectual games and/or personal intellectual assaults.

Stuff happens

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Thu, 22 Dec 2016 #50
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Here is the denial. Another lie:

Jean Gatti wrote:
Well Brian I really do appreciate your 'support' but I am not the one who did personalize the debate here, and I don't want to.

And here is the fact: Jean's personal attempt to instigate a fight with a reply to a statement I made that was not directed to him but another poster.

Jack Pine wrote in response:

I needed to burn off a little steam yesterday

Jean Gatti wrote:

Probably some resistance to 'what is' which indeed creates lots of heat ... all wasted energy ...

Jean, do you even realize that you are a pathological liar?

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 22 Dec 2016.

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Thu, 22 Dec 2016 #51
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
What aspect of the mind sees something without distortion/bias/interpretation?

The essence of thought is when thought is not ... this is the state of awareness ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 22 Dec 2016 #52
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

randall merryman wrote:
Yes, we now see "clearly" that the only options available are to play intellectual games and/or personal intellectual assaults.

the alternative option being silence ...

"Now the negation of disorder is silence. Any movement of thought will only breed further disorder. " (K)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 22 Dec 2016 #53
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jo D wrote:
It just seems like an act that is purposely designed to specifically trigger reaction in others.

Well Jo, obviously those emotional reactions are indeed triggered (just look at this discussion) ... but it is not "purposely designed" to be so ... for some (most) persons the mere statement of truth is unbearable and triggers huge resistance ...

There is an old saying:

"Give a horse to the man who tells the truth"

(nb: in that time the horse was the fastest means to fly away quickly)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Thu, 22 Dec 2016 #54
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5643 posts in this forum Offline

Jo D wrote:
It just seems like an act that is purposely designed to specifically trigger reaction in others. I am not suggesting it is a smart way of doing things, just that it has an objective.

Well the fact is Jo D there is a purpose. Jean is desperate for attention. He can't get it by engaging in a normal discussion here because his responses soon go off the tract into nearly total irrationality. So people ignore him. To get attention Jean is left with irritating people in order to get a reaction from them.

I know it seems kind of pitiful but there it is.

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Thu, 22 Dec 2016 #55
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
the alternative option being silence ...

Yes, but Jean, you were talking about "playing the ball, not the player". When I pointed to the fact of the limitation of thinking, you resist this fact by pulling something out of your @$$ called "silence"

Stuff happens

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Thu, 22 Dec 2016 #56
Thumb_stringio randall merryman United States 3832 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
The essence of thought is when thought is not ...

Let us all contemplate this statement in silence.

Stuff happens

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Fri, 23 Dec 2016 #57
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
randall merryman wrote:

Yes, we now see "clearly" that the only options available are to play intellectual games and/or personal intellectual assaults.

Jean: the alternative option being silence ...

From the Merriam Webster dictionary: option =

the opportunity or ability to choose something or to choose between two or more things. : something that can be chosen : a choice or possibility.

Were you aware of the meaning when you used the word 'option', Jean?
Who is it that chooses silence? Can you say how this silence comes about when noise is 'what is'...the fact/actuality. Is there an 'alternative' to 'what is'? From Merriam Webster again: alternative =
an opportunity for deciding between two or more courses or propositions.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 23 Dec 2016.

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Fri, 23 Dec 2016 #58
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Were you aware of the meaning when you used the word 'option', Jean?
Who is it that chooses silence?

Intellectual game ?

... or silence ?

Silence is not a choice ... silence is the absence of choice, the negation of action ... choiceless awareness ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Fri, 23 Dec 2016.

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Fri, 23 Dec 2016 #59
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3169 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

Were you aware of the meaning when you used the word 'option', Jean?
Who is it that chooses silence?

Jean: Intellectual game ?

If someone questions your assertions, you just dismiss them right? You put out the notion of silence as an alternative to the noise of the intellect and emotion. Those were your words, "an alternative option". Now I'm asking what you mean, and you call my question a game? How is silence an option when 'what is' is noise....great fear or anxiety, for instance? Someone was discussing eating disorder on Clive's forum.....which obviously comes from great anxiety....as an escape from facing one's emotional pain....the fears worries, anger, etc. Is there an "alternative" to that noise...to what is? You dismiss all that kind of noise....the fact....so easily, by proposing an alternative choice one can make.

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Fri, 23 Dec 2016.

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Fri, 23 Dec 2016 #60
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
How does silence enter the picture when 'what is' is noise....great fear or anxiety, for instance?

By paying full attention to it rather than trying to find an escape (like alcohol, drugs, entertainment, beliefs, ideologies etc)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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