Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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On active political involvement


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Sat, 26 Nov 2016 #1
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Hello everybody. Below is a link to a video (just under 20 minutes) of Krishnamurti talking about active political involvement. Does anybody have anything to say about this? The video is here.

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Sat, 26 Nov 2016 #2
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Thank you Sean - we just watched that.

K states clearly (as always) that change can only take place 'very near'.

No grandstanding from him, no 'how to do it', no condoning of all getting together and influencing the political scene.

Awareness of the human corruption/disorder - yes, but along with that the awareness that the only place it can ever be honestly addressed is internally.

So - no inspiration at all for the zealot - for the person intent upon 'changing the world'. Isn't the only change in finding out exactly what it means to live a 'religious life'? Which necessarily means living it, does it not?

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Sat, 26 Nov 2016 #3
Thumb_anastasia Anastasia Kovas United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

Only change is internal (for about 7 billion people). No revolution with guns or policies will help. Learning to live with "what is" is the best recourse. We will soon bear the results of political corruption as many have before us in Syria and other countries.

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Sun, 27 Nov 2016 #4
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
K states clearly (as always) that change can only take place 'very near'.

No grandstanding from him, no 'how to do it', no condoning of all getting together and influencing the political scene.

Hi Patricia. Thanks for commenting on this. One of the things that struck me when watching this video was the "no how to do it" aspect. Krishnamurti certainly doesn't give us rules to follow. He also mentioned "rich people getting tremendously more rich" and this was in 1982. In the subsequent 34 years the world has seen this tendency become much more accentuated. Krishnamurt's message seems more relevant than ever nowadays.

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Sun, 27 Nov 2016 #5
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Krishnamurti's message seems more relevant than ever nowadays.

Yes - and also more remote than when he was alive. Not only the ever-growing divide between rich and poor, as you point out Sean, but also the non-questioning of all that we human beings hold sacred. In particular - the self.

And while K warned about the danger of technology, could he have possibly have foreseen the extent to which it would invade our lives? And the extent to which this technology is principally utilised to feed the activity of the self? (Just to take a very minute example: selfies.)

About 'rules to follow'. There can be none. Rules only come from authority, and authority/rules/following is what we already have functioning. And it is quite clear where that has landed us.

I found K's reply to the question completely profound and uncompromising. The most interesting thing about watching that video is to observe from where he spoke.

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Sun, 27 Nov 2016 #6
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
And while K warned about the danger of technology, could he have possibly have foreseen the extent to which it would invade our lives? And the extent to which this technology is principally utilised to feed the activity of the self? (Just to take a very minute example: selfies.)

Yes that's true enough. Well I suppose I'm beating a dead horse since no one has commented on my observations about social media on another thread BUT: Not only selfies but what about "Friending" someone? There seems to be a great deal of ego involved with how many "friends" you have on various social media like, I suppose, Facebook. I'm not on any myself so I don't know too much about it. I do know that there is a lot de-friending going on after the recent election in the US. People just can't seem to tolerate others who voted for or didn't vote for Herr Trump. Trump, the most divisive person to float to the surface of politics this country has probably ever seen.

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Sun, 27 Nov 2016 #7
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Sean, the link you posted above is excellent and certainly timely. Why, indeed, do we give so much power to politicians? People who are, so often, morally, ethically and integrity challenged? In the US, with very few exceptions, the politicians are "scrapped off the bottom of the barrel" as the expression goes. The politicians are, for the most part, not people of high quality but often just the opposite.

We all have been so heavily conditioned, programmed, to accept "our country", "our way of life", "our political views", "our dominance over other countries." The US may be the most corrupt, the most ruthless, the most destructive country in the world. Yet we are told that all the killing and destruction of other countries is necessary because our way of life is the right one and we must destroy opposing ways of life before they destroy us.

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Mon, 28 Nov 2016 #8
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Hi again Patricia, Jack and all. Does our use of technology reflect our psychological state? The proliferation of weapons of mass destruction perhaps shows that we are generally insecure and need to dominate one another. Can social media be used in a more positive way if the user has some self-awareness? Surely many people use social media platforms to share photos and music with friends and loved ones and also to raise awareness of issues that don't find their way into mainstream media. Obviously, as the vast majority of us are self-obssessed then technology becomes a vehicle to express and promote the self on a grand scale. Are there any signs of hope that some sort of awakening is taking place on any kind of level about all of this?

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Mon, 28 Nov 2016 #9
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Are there any signs of hope that some sort of awakening is taking place on any kind of level about all of this?

Perhaps looking for signs of hope is a movement away from confronting the actuality Sean. The action is in - as K stated in what you shared above - living a religious life. Not for the purpose of being important - not for accolades or reward - but quite simply because there is no choice.

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Mon, 28 Nov 2016 #10
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
active political involvement

Hi Sean,

thanks for the link, good to refresh this item now the world is in such a turmoil !

Jack Pine wrote:
for Herr Trump

Jack, don't shoot the messenger but dispel the message of the growing force of 'egoism', self-interest above public interest.

I heard he now claims he also won the popular vote by,
without any proof or ground proclaim the election system is corrupt.
An honest man would arrange new not corrupt voting,
but to me it’s only an attempt to defend his wounded ego.

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Perhaps looking for signs of hope is a movement away from confronting the actuality Sean. The action is in - as K stated in what you shared above - living a religious life. Not for the purpose of being important - not for accolades or reward - but quite simply because there is no choice.

Nicely put Patricia,
I had a similar response, until I saw yours and mine was unnecessary.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Mon, 28 Nov 2016.

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Mon, 28 Nov 2016 #11
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Sean Hen wrote:
Are there any signs of hope that some sort of awakening is taking place on any kind of level about all of this?

Sean, you ask this after the so-called "Greatest Nation" on earth just elected a man-child, admitted sexual molester, serial liar and accused child rapist, fascist, narcissist, with a vocabulary of about 200 words (this according to one of his ghost writers) and much more as president of the United States of America?

My theory about what is happening in the US is that when stupid people breed, well they end up with stupid kids that grow up and become rightwing Christians and Republicans and vote for something like Trump.

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Mon, 28 Nov 2016 #12
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Perhaps looking for signs of hope is a movement away from confronting the actuality Sean.

I "hope" you don't mind me piling on a bit here but hope is probably one of the most deadly, destructive emotions one can have. Hope implies time and that what is bad now will somehow be better in the future without us doing much other than......hoping it will be better. As you have implied in your post without understanding the present, without change now through understanding, then the present is the future.

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Mon, 28 Nov 2016 #13
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Jack, don't shoot the messenger but dispel the message of the growing force of 'egoism', self-interest above public interest.

That's easy for you to say because you don't have the misfortune to live here. (Add big grin from Jack here)

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Mon, 28 Nov 2016 #14
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
That's easy for you to say because you don't have the misfortune to live here. (Add big grin from Jack here)

Jack, distance isn't the problem, it's not so much better in Europe !

Coming elections in The Netherlands, Belgium France and Germany were the same kind of hollow talk is prominent. But it's what it is.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Mon, 28 Nov 2016 #15
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I "hope" you don't mind me piling on a bit here but hope is probably one of the most deadly, destructive emotions one can have. Hope implies time and that what is bad now will somehow be better in the future without us doing much other than......hoping it will be better. As you have implied in your post without understanding the present, without change now through understanding, then the present is the future.

Hi Jack, Patricia and all. Yes, fair point about "hope".

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Mon, 28 Nov 2016 #16
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Ken B wrote:
The Democratic Party, forgetting its roots, has become the party of shaming and group therapy. The Democrats should have seen this coming after the thrashing they received in the mid term elections two years ago.

The Democratic Party is a joke and has been for quite awhile. Hillary and Bill pulled the party way right when he was in office. Bill's biggest accomplishments were NAFTA and GATT and screwing people on welfare by making it tougher to get it and hang on to it. The Dems, at best, are moderate Republicans.

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Mon, 28 Nov 2016 #17
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Wim, I was joking in post # 13. I know that radical nationalism is on the rise not only in the US but in Europe too partly due to the huge influx of immigrants. And the immigrant problem is largely related to Bush's wars that Obama has not only maintained but expanded upon. We are all screwed my friend. The Neocons are going for total control of all the wealth and of our lives. Nothing less.

The joke is on the neocons though. Humanity is on it's way out, becoming extinct through sheer stupidity. Unfortunately we are taking most of the other life on this planet with us.

In the book "Future of Humanity" Dr Bohm asked K if it is too late for humankind. K said probably. Bohm asked, "Then why are we, you and I, even discussing change in human conditioning and all the rest of it?" (I'm paraphrasing) K answers, "Because it's the right thing to do".

It's like brushing your teeth right before you stand in front of a firing squad. It was the right thing to do.

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Tue, 29 Nov 2016 #18
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
It's like brushing your teeth right before you stand in front of a firing squad. It was the right thing to do.

Good to hear someone even more cynical than this little black duck Jack. :)

Coming back to the original point of Sean's thread, it is an extraordinary answer that K gives, and I repeat, because no-one picked up on it: The interesting thing about the video is to observe from where K speaks. And THAT is way more relevant today than it ever was. Today in this age of 'post-truth', where the ego spouts on endlessly, ignorantly, and irrelevantly..........

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Tue, 29 Nov 2016.

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Tue, 29 Nov 2016 #19
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
The interesting thing about the video is to observe from where K speaks.

Hi Patricia. Do you mean that the interesting thing is to observe someone speaking who has no ego, no self?

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Tue, 29 Nov 2016 #20
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I "hope" you don't mind me piling on a bit here

More piling on here.

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Tue, 29 Nov 2016 #21
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Exactly so! (To the second video - not to the question you asked me Sean #20.)

As to your question: it seems to me that in the years following K's death, the whole discussion has become so formulaic. Is it possible to embrace the teaching with a freshness of discovery in every moment? Surely it is absolutely essential to do so in this present age of 'post-truth'.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Tue, 29 Nov 2016.

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Tue, 29 Nov 2016 #22
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5755 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
As to your question: it seems to me that in the years following K's death, the whole discussion has become so formulaic.

I agree with this. This is apparently the case at the Oak Grove School and the KFA in general. The seminars that KFA arranges throughout the year to raise awareness of K and the teachings and to raise money seem to be lead by people who have no qualifications to lead a Krishnamurti study. Their very lives are a denial of what K was pointing out. I have pointed out one such couple who annually "facilitate" a couple of "intensives" based on something K talked about.

There is also the "Think On These Things" program, connected with the Oak Grove School, where people, students mostly, write something to fit the description of the name of the program which, obviously, was taken from the title of a book that is a transcript of K talking to younger school children. The book itself is a wonderful introduction to K. I know it's a catchy title but is thinking what we really want to promote as a means to more deeply understanding what K pointed out? And does writing something to fit neatly under this subject heading really going into what K pointed out? Or is it just another "exercise" or accomplishment to be attained by a student?

Recently the KFA newsletter announced another intensive to be "facilitated" by two psychotherapists. K completely rejected psychotherapy because, among other reasons, the analyzer is the analyzed, the observer is the observed, and so on.

I want to make it clear that I support the mission of the KFA which is to keep the record of what K spoke of intact and available to anyone who is interested. And to preserve all of the material; the books, manuscripts and anything else pertaining to what K discovered and shared. What I question is whether the K Foundations are doing this or whether they are going off on tangents that are institutionalizing K and the teachings.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Tue, 29 Nov 2016.

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Tue, 29 Nov 2016 #23
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Surely it is absolutely essential to do so in this present age of 'post-truth'.

Patricia,

What do you mean by: " this present age of 'post-truth'"?

Was there truth in the past, is truth someting in time or something from time ??
I can't place your expression !

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 30 Nov 2016 #24
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
What I question is whether the K Foundations are doing this or whether they are going off on tangents that are institutionalizing K and the teachings.

Your post #23 is a very interesting summary Jack. The answer is not to be found in constant endless analysis of the words K used - quite clearly, as this has been going on for all the years since K's death - to no avail. As he said: The word is not the thing.

The tangents you speak of - perhaps - come from a desperation of the foundations to get the message across by any fair of foul means anyone can come up with. This attitude cannot succeed - quite simply. And the reason is very plain if one returns to the point of this thread - K's answer to the question asked - and observes from where K is speaking. This cannot be described, because one falls back into buzz-words again. It can only be seen/heard. In the seeing/listening is the realisation of how much more than words it really is.

It is all there in the teaching, and the foundations fulfil their obligation simply by making it available. Nothing else is required. To guild the lily in any way is to pollute the teaching. The truth does not need help - it is either seen/heard/acted upon, or not.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Wed, 30 Nov 2016.

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Wed, 30 Nov 2016 #25
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
What do you mean by: " this present age of 'post-truth'"?

Wim - we are reportedly living today in a "post-truth world". The meaning of this - I am informed - is that now someone's opinion of what the truth is matters more than the observed fact of what it actually is.

"Post-truth" has been named as the buzz-word of 2016.

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Wed, 30 Nov 2016 #26
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

When Krishnamurti said that politics is generally a crooked business probably few would argue. However, it's always problematic to talk generally. Some politicians dedicate their lives to representing ordinary people and can make a real difference in giving a voice to those who normally are not heard. Sometimes political activity can be thrust upon people by circumstance. Between January and April 2003, around 36 million citizens from around the world took part in peaceful demonstrations against the impending war in Iraq. If you asked one of these demonstrators why they decided to march all those years ago they might well say "It was the right thing to do."

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Wed, 30 Nov 2016 #27
Thumb_patricia_may_2014_reduced_ Patricia Hemingway Australia 1929 posts in this forum Offline

Sean - the question K asks in his answer (#1) is why do we expect that politicians - or anyone else for that matter - will solve the human problem for us?. Where does responsibility lie? And - Where does genuine action take place? In demonstrations? Or are they just more reactions - more of the same old same old? Is there action which is not reaction?

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Wed, 30 Nov 2016 #28
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
The seminars that KFA arranges throughout the year to raise awareness of K and the teachings and to raise money seem to be lead by people who have no qualifications to lead a Krishnamurti study

I have no idea what these seminars are about Jack but is there anyone out there that has a qualification to lead a Krishnamurti study? Anybody who sets themselves up as an expert on K's teachings is surely deluded. If someone says "I have read and listened to Krishnamurti for many years and have some understanding of the teachings" then yes, that seems fair enough.

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Wed, 30 Nov 2016 #29
Thumb_001 Sean Hen Spain 886 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Sean - the question K asks in his answer (#1) is why do we expect that politicians - or anyone else for that matter - will solve the human problem for us?.

Hi Patricia. I think in the anti-Iraq war demonstrations many felt that the politicians were the problem rather than the solution. People took to the streets peacefully as a sign of their protest against impending mass slaughter. Was this wrong?

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Wed, 30 Nov 2016 #30
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1398 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
now someone's opinion of what the truth is matters more than the observed fact of what it actually is.

"Post-truth" has been named as the buzz-word of 2016.

Yes, that is a good observation or rather a fact,
it was the first time I heard of this buzz-word.

Thanks ;-)

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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