Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #31
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1339 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
Kindly do not interpret what the master said,Dan.

Thank you Ravi. However I think we all "interpret" what the "master" said... When and if you try his suggestion,though,to see if 'thought can be aware of itself", you may find as 'I' do that 'you' are that very thought/thinking that is being put in question as to whether 'it' can 'awaken', whether 'it' can become aware of itself. It is difficult to describe but if you have another experience with this, please share it.

Also I want to add, referring to K. as "master" seems strange after he spent so many years speaking against the destructiveness of the 'master/ disciple' conditioning. He was indeed a 'signpost' but the discovery of the truth of our situation has to be discovered in and by ourselves, the master/disciple mentality is an impediment to that.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sat, 27 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #32
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Also I want to add, referring to K. as "master" seems strange after he spent so many years speaking against the destructiveness of the 'master/ disciple' conditioning. He was indeed a 'signpost' but the discovery of the truth of our situation has to be discovered in and by ourselves, the master/disciple mentality is an impediment to that.

Reply to inconseqential first:

k was the greatest teacher i know of. In India , we call a school teacher , a Master. You are lucky if you get a good master. His teachings remain with you all life as he teaches , apart from the usual subject matter, also, how to lead your life.
Thus i do not find any dissonance in the word master and teacher. Also the word Guru as many here would not like to attach with k, means the same. Guru is one who takes you from darkness to light.

These words arise from the mind of us who are in darkness but are passionate to see light. How can we use our own words to describe what he pointed towards unless we too have seen that?

Dan McDermott wrote:
Thank you Ravi. However I think we all "interpret" what the "master" said... When and if you try his suggestion,though,to see if 'thought can be aware of itself", you may find as 'I' do that 'you' are that very thought/thinking that is being put in question as to whether 'it' can 'awaken', whether 'it' can become aware of itself. It is difficult to describe but if you have another experience with this, please share

Whenever i have inadventrly or adventrly , to understand k, have changed his words to suit my logic, they have boomeranged. After years of study, I found not even a word can be changed.

My way of studying k always has been to read him in one go, without stopping inbetween for reflection. This gives me the perfume, the rythem of the song i hear . Then i start reading slowly to understand what his words convey. The first establishes me as a listener who is enjoying the music, the poetry, the second makes me to dance with joy. That's all.

Then the music and dance starts on its own in your mind. Only then you can laugh with k and are free.

There were many like k who pointed as k would albeit in their own lingo in their own style.One who immediately comes to mind is Ghalib , the poet in Urdu and Perssian.

For you i quote his couplet:

(Naa kuch thaa to khuda tha.
Kuch na hita to khuda hota
Dubaya mujh ko gham ne
Na hota main to kya hota. )

When there was nothing, HE was.

Had there been nothing, HE would be.

I am in sorrow entangled between these two.

Had "I" been 'Not', what there could be?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #33
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
When and if you try his suggestion,though,to see if 'thought can be aware of itself", you may find as 'I' do that 'you' are that very thought/thinking that is being put in question as to whether 'it' can 'awaken', whether 'it' can become aware of itself. It is difficult to describe but if you have another experience with this, please share it.

Dan, I know what you are getting at, thought becoming aware of itself, but doesn't this require a choiceless observation first? Somehow I wonder if you can "jump" to that. Does that make sense?

mike

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #34
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1339 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
Then the music and dance starts on its own in your mind.

It is almost sun-up here on the river that is still somewhat frozen. The noisy crows have found an eagle to harass who has come down the river to fish and catch the first warm rays of the sun. One crow has come to a tree close to the feeder to see if there is some bread that I occasionally leave. A small bird gives out its song...it is so clear, so unencumbered with care, so free. The sound goes through me and I turn from it and begin to 'think'... this morning it seems that the story of mankind has been and still is" 'nothing'... trying to become 'something'.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 29 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #35
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1339 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
, I know what you are getting at, thought becoming aware of itself, but doesn't this require a choiceless observation first?

Why wait?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #36
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Among slogan shouting JNU students at the background, it is superbly creative music lol . .. , Wah!

http://youtu.be/6NJbxEgf3Uo

This post was last updated by Ravi Seth Sun, 28 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #37
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Why wait?

Yes, I just meant watching seems necessary in order for thought to be aware of itself.

mike

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #38
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
The sound goes through me and I turn from it and begin to 'think'... this morning it seems that the story of mankind has been and still is" 'nothing' trying to become 'something'.

Dan, what kind of complaint/annoyance do you have about "begin to think"?

Do you feel that "begin to think" is somehow your fault...lack of something in you?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #39
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1339 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
what kind of complaint/annoyance do you have about "begin to think"?

Do you feel that "begin to think" is somehow your fault...lack of something in you?

Yes in that moment, I recall the call of the bird, it was so strong and clear and it kept repeating and it felt that if I could stay with the sound of that bird that I would be as 'free' as it was: singing to the sun as it was just touching the tops of the trees...and then there was 'thought' and the bird song went into the background. No "complaint", no "annoyance", no "fault" either just an observation but yes, a "lack" of maybe 'quiet'?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #40
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1339 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
I just meant watching seems necessary in order for thought to be aware of itself.

I don't understand, Mike. You can look at your thought right now and then you can ask if the thoughts can awaken, be aware of them selves... And then you can realize that there is no 'looker', no 'you', no 'asker' separate from those thoughts. I think that that is the 'meditation' that K is pointing at, but I could be wrong.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #41
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
a "lack" of maybe 'quiet'?

Which will create a demand to find back 'quiet/tuning/harmony', won't it?

And next time you are in the same serene neighbourhood, this demand or the demand to recapture previous 'good' experience will be already in place...No need to point out the consequences of such demands.

Why does one consider thought movement a distraction and not the sound of birds chirping?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #42
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Why does one consider thought movement a distraction and not the sound of birds chirping?

Good question. But you see, consideration is already involves thinking, and thought may be a distraction.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #43
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
I don't understand, Mike. You can look at your thought right now and then you can ask if the thoughts can awaken, be aware of them selves... And then you can realize that there is no 'looker', no 'you', no 'asker' separate from those thoughts. I think that that is the 'meditation' that K is pointing at, but I could be wrong.

I question whether you can look at thought. Isn't looking at thought is already thinking?

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #44
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
thought may be a distraction.

Distraction to/in what, Voco?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #45
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Distraction to/in what, Voco?

To apprehending.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #46
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
To apprehending.

Apprehend | Define Apprehend at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/apprehend
2. to grasp the meaning of; understand, especially intuitively; perceive.

Voco, why should thought movement be a distraction in apprehending? I mean thought has come and perceiving is finished. That is it...finished. Where is the distraction except in insisting/desiring that perceiving should have continued?

What is the origin of such desire in oneself?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #47
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Voco, why should thought movement be a distraction in apprehending?

Only because of thinking of something else. When I see a bird I might think of God, or when I see woman I might think of sex with her immediately, or simply thinking can be a cloud for perception, when one is completely absorbed into it, there is no sensitivity. But, thought is not necessarily a distraction if it as close to reality.

This post was last updated by Voco . Sun, 28 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #48
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:

When I see a bird I might think of God, or when I see woman I might think of sex with her immediately,or simply thinking can be a cloud for perception, when one is completely absorbed into it, there is no sensitivity.
Yes, it happens like this...But when we understand that it happens like this, then where is the distraction?

Voco . wrote:

But, thought is not necessarily a distraction if it as close to reality.
Yes, functional thoughts aid in action/functioning.

What is thought not close to reality? What is the cause/stimulus of/for its origin?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #49
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Yes, it happens like this...But when we understand that it happens like this, then where is the distraction?

It depends what do you mean by understanding, you are saying "when we understand that it happens like this" - this is only an intellectual understanding you see. Either understanding is not separate from the perceiving, or it is. Understanding is therefore in that context is not knowledge.

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
Yes, functional thoughts aid in action/functioning.

What is thought not close to reality? What is the cause/stimulus of/for its origin?

I would say it is an imagination. And the cause of it is self-forgetfulness.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #50
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
I question whether you can look at thought. Isn't looking at thought is already thinking?

It depends on how you look at it. Certainly thought can be looked at without the observer, in passive alertness, watching as you would watch a bird in flight. It may not, of course, be a constant thing, state, but how else are you going to start? I think this is the beginning of meditation.

mike

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #51
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1339 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
It may not, of course, be a constant thing, state

You 'lose' it and you pick it up again...the desire for a "constant" state is the 'state of becoming': the desire to be or to have something psychologically: security, reward, etc. That's how we have been 'conditioned' to think, rather than what K is suggesting, which is to 'awaken' to 'what is' in the moment.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 28 Feb 2016.

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #52
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
You 'lose' it and you pick it up again...

And also not have any motive behind losing and picking up again...an almost impossible condition to meet...and this could mean a wasted life time effort/energy!

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Mon, 29 Feb 2016 #53
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1339 posts in this forum Offline

Sudhir Sharma wrote:
And also not have any motive behind losing and picking up again...an almost impossible condition to meet...and this could mean a wasted life time effort/energy!

That's the chance you take, Sudhir.

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