Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The essential


Displaying posts 31 - 60 of 156 in total
Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #31
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 523 posts in this forum Offline

#4:

Huguette . wrote:
I cannot point to “the present”.

Jean Gatti wrote:
But I can BE the presence ... without needing any concept for that ...

Jean, not as I see it. The petty “I” cannot be presence. It is still an idea. There is only timeless being and in the silence of being, of awareness, there can be understanding. Why do we need to introduce “presence”?

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #32
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
The petty “I” cannot be presence.

Well the petty "I" does not exist ... there is only presence ... and this is fundamentally what we/you/me ARE ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #33
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
There is only timeless being and in the silence of being, of awareness, there can be understanding. Why do we need to introduce “presence”?

But 'presence' is nothing else than 'being' ... and it is timeless ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #34
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
If you’re saying that concept --- idea, interpretation, hypothesis, conclusion, belief, etc. --- is all there is, I cannot argue against it.

No, I'm not saying that, what I'm saying is silence, silent observation, choiceless awareness, silent witnessing or whatever it is a concept, it is a named experience in other words, and any experience is purely subjective, therefore what is called "silence" exists only as an experience, as a sensation, as a thought. You cannot say that there is any silence beyond you. I'm not denying that one can be in a calm, fresh state so to say if there is no heavy burden of thinking, but that state is a natural state of man, whereas something like silence is a form of trance.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #35
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Jean, not as I see it. The petty “I” cannot be presence. It is still an idea. There is only timeless being and in the silence of being, of awareness, there can be understanding.

Well, again, timeless beings, silence of being and so on can be the same petty idea. It stems from you, from your experience, but nothing like that exists factually, it is your impression.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #36
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Well, again, timeless beings, silence of being and so on can be the same petty idea. It stems from you, from your experience, but nothing like that exists factually, it is your impression.

Where you are, the other is not.

mike

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #37
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Where you are, the other is not.

What do you mean?

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #38
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Well, again, timeless beings, silence of being and so on can be the same petty idea. It stems from you, from your experience, but nothing like that exists factually, it is your impression.

m christani wrote:
Where you are, the other is not.

Voco . wrote:
What do you mean?

I mean, where the self is, silence, timelessness is not. Where one is the other is not.

mike

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #39
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
I mean, where the self is, silence, timelessness is not. Where one is the other is not.

Who is then speaking of silence, of timelessness?

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #40
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Who is then speaking of silence, of timelessness?

What is your point?

mike

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #41
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
What is your point?

How can you speak of something that exists independently and at the same time be absent?

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #42
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Honestly, I was quoting K.

mike

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #43
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Who is then speaking of silence, of timelessness?

Necessarily thought, what else ? ... silence (and awareness the same) does not speak :-)

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #44
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Where you are, the other is not.

Indeed I think it is a K's quote ... it could be understood as 'what you see in others is only the image you make of them, not what they really are' ... kind of 'movie' we make about others, with lots of erroneous 'assumptions' ... this can be easily observed in this very forum too ...

Which also reminds me another quote (not from K but from Anaïs Nin):

"We don't see things as they are, we see things as WE are" (Anaïs Nin)

Now one could also say: 'Where you are, the other is 'created' ... because thought creates an artificial separation between 'me' and 'others' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Sat, 27 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #45
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti wrote:
it could be understood as 'what you see in others is only the image you make of them, not what they really are' ...

Yes, duality-I think too he meant "the other" as in the "That" which he frequently wrote of, "the otherness", from his Notebook, etc.

mike

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #46
Thumb_stringio richard villlar France 78 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
because thought creates an artificial separation between 'me' and 'others' ...

Yes Jean. .. Just. ..
Because brain, elaborate whith thought, a [me and an other] which is the separation.

vivre, est le verbe de la vie...

This post was last updated by richard villlar (account deleted) Sat, 27 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #47
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 523 posts in this forum Offline

re: #34

Huguette . wrote:

If you’re saying that concept --- idea, interpretation, hypothesis, conclusion, belief, etc. --- is all there is, I cannot argue against it.

Voco . wrote:
No, I'm not saying that, what I'm saying is silence, silent observation, choiceless awareness, silent witnessing or whatever it is a concept, it is a named experience in other words, and any experience is purely subjective, therefore what is called "silence" exists only as an experience, as a sensation, as a thought. You cannot say that there is any silence beyond you. I'm not denying that one can be in a calm, fresh state so to say if there is no heavy burden of thinking, but that state is a natural state of man, whereas something like silence is a form of trance.

When you feel compassion, beauty or love --- or rather, where there is compassion, beauty or love --- it is not an idea, a thought, an idealized sentiment, is it? If it IS THAT, then it is not compassion etc. Compassion is not engendered or fueled by thought. Compassion is a spontaneous experiencing (not “experience”, which is memory) of something which cannot be measured ... but it CAN be observed. We use the word, the concept, of compassion to communicate, but the concept is not IT.

Surely the painful travail, nearly constant anxiety, fear, compulsion, robotic effort and drive, conflict, that we call “normal life” is unnatural. Surely calm, fresh silence is the natural state of man. Where thought is silent, there is silence, and silence is not a sterile void. Silence is meditation, it is not a trance. In a trance, there is no awareness, no observation, there is a dulling of all senses. In silence, there is energy and intelligence. That energy and intelligence is not “personal”, it is not mine or yours, it is not put together by the intellect, and it acts.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #48
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
When you feel compassion, beauty or love --- or rather, where there is compassion, beauty or love --- it is not an idea, a thought, an idealized sentiment, is it? If it IS THAT, then it is not compassion etc. Compassion is not engendered or fueled by thought. Compassion is a spontaneous experiencing (not “experience”, which is memory) of something which cannot be measured ... but it CAN be observed. We use the word, the concept, of compassion to communicate, but the concept is not IT.

What is compassion, beauty and love? You use the word, so there must be something behind that, what is it, is it an image, an experiencing which you name? If you say there is a compassion, beauty and love how do you recognize it's presence, how do you know it is that? Then you say compassion is spontaneous experiencing, that means you already know what it is and you already know the conditions under which it appears, this means you already have an image of it, isn't it?

So, all what you are saying can be wiped out completely, it's all knowledge, images, memory, and what will be left is unknown, that which cannot be called by any name, even as unknown.

Huguette . wrote:
Silence is meditation, it is not a trance. In a trance, there is no awareness, no observation, there is a dulling of all senses. In silence, there is energy and intelligence. That energy and intelligence is not “personal”, it is not mine or yours, it is not put together by the intellect, and it acts.

Whatever you say it is, that has no significance at all. Trance however is not dulling of all senses, on a contrary it is a complete absorption by them, it is a self-forgetfulness, and it is a trance which is ecstasy. But, all that is completely irrelevant.

This post was last updated by Voco . Sat, 27 Feb 2016.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #49
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

I think Voco is saying no one here has truly (lack of verb here) the unknowable, the otherness (lack of proper noun here). But has anyone caught the hem of it? Voco?

mike

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #50
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
I think Voco is saying no one here has truly (lack of verb here) the unknowable, the otherness (lack of proper noun here). But has anyone caught the hem of it? Voco?

I'm not saying that... All I'm saying is that we can't know the unknown, it is not called by any name, neither beauty, nor love, nor compassion, nor meditation.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #51
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

I think one, through self-study, insight, awareness, can begin to perceive beauty, meditation.

I also think there is an absolute state, whether it be silence, complete insight, awakening- whatever you call it. And that cannot be while the self is there. This is just my opinion anyway.

But why keep driving the point home, in every post?

mike

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #52
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 523 posts in this forum Offline

re: #48

Voco . wrote:
What is compassion, beauty and love? You use the word, so there must be something behind that, what is it, is it an image, an experiencing which you name? If you say there is a compassion, beauty and love how do you recognize it's presence, how do you know it is that? Then you say compassion is spontaneous experiencing, that means you already know what it is and you already know the conditions under which it appears, this means you already have an image of it, isn't it?

Are you saying there is no such thing as love, beauty, compassion, or just that you have never felt it? Have you ever felt hunger, pain, thirst? How do you recognize hunger when you feel it? If I feel hunger, is it just an image I'm recognizing?

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #53
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 523 posts in this forum Offline

re: 48

Voco . wrote:
Whatever you say it is, that has no significance at all. Trance however is not dulling of all senses, on a contrary it is a complete absorption by them, it is a self-forgetfulness, and it is a trance which is ecstasy. But, all that is completely irrelevant.

Whatever a trance is, it is not silent awareness or meditation.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #54
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
I'm not saying that... All I'm saying is that we can't know the unknown, it is not called by any name, neither beauty, nor love, nor compassion, nor meditation.

Why do you call infinite as infinite or unknown as unknown? Have you seen the infinite or unknown to name them so ?

Try for a change to think about the infinite, your brains would burst open.

All these words point towards no-thing that you ought to look at it wordlessly.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #55
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Are you saying there is no such thing as love, beauty, compassion, or just that you have never felt it? Have you ever felt hunger, pain, thirst? How do you recognize hunger when you feel it? If I feel hunger, is it just an image I'm recognizing?

Hunger, pain, thirst are real, the body lets you know that, you don't have to talk about it, but what is love, does the body lets you know there is love, or it's some petty romantic imagination?

Ravi Seth wrote:
Why do you call infinite as infinite or unknown as unknown? Have you seen the infinite or unknown to name them so ?

Where have I used word "infinite" ? I call it unknown, but I don't mean some thing, I'm simply saying that I don't know, what I see is unknown to me.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #56
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 523 posts in this forum Offline

re: #55

So you ARE saying there is no such thing as love, beauty, compassion, you have never experienced them? They are not "real", they are not serious, because not having them doesn't kill the body?

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #57
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 523 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
I don't know, what I see is unknown to me.

Is your "I don't know" just a thought, a concept, an idea, or is it a non-measurable fact?

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #58
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
So you ARE saying there is no such thing as love, beauty, compassion, you have never experienced them? They are not "real", they are not serious, because not having them doesn't kill the body?

I don't know what you are talking about. You are saying there is love and I ask you how do you recognize it is love, and what you are experiencing when there is love. And also, is love an experiencing? If it is experiencing, then it is yours, it is not beyond you or outside you.

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Sat, 27 Feb 2016 #59
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
Is your "I don't know" just a thought, a concept, an idea, or is it a non-measurable fact?

It is a fact for me that I don't know. I don't know what is love, do you know?

This post was last updated by Voco . Sat, 27 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 28 Feb 2016 #60
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 523 posts in this forum Offline

re: #59

I DON’T know what love is. Does that mean there is no love?

Although love can be named, it still remains unknown. Is it giving love a name which prevents love? Or is it desire, fear, ambition, conflict, self-centredness, and so on? Of course naming love cannot bring love about; naming love does not measure or explain love. Naming must end and it can only end where there is self-understanding. Isn't that why we talk things over, to see if together we can shed some light on what is keeping us in the dark?

This post was last updated by Huguette . Sun, 28 Feb 2016.

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