Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Insight


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Sun, 07 Feb 2016 #1
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

On another forum someone made an astoundingly incorrect statement that there is no "insight without thought".

Don't just make things up because you think they sound good. This is one of the reasons it's so difficult to get a discussion going and running on this site.

What prevents insight

It is astonishingly beautiful and interesting, how thought is absent when you have an insight. Thought cannot have an insight. It is only when the mind is not operating mechanically in the structure of thought that you have an insight. Having had an insight, thought draws a conclusion from that insight. And then thought acts and thought is mechanical. So I have to find out whether having an insight into myself, which means into the world, and not drawing a conclusion from it is possible. If I draw a conclusion, I act on an idea, on an image, on a symbol, which is the structure of thought, and so I am constantly preventing myself from having insight, from understanding things as they are.
On Mind and Thought, p 34

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Sun, 07 Feb 2016 #2
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote (quoting Krishnamurti):
It is astonishingly beautiful and interesting, how thought is absent when you have an insight. . . . Having had an insight, thought draws a conclusion from that insight.

Yes. Thinking is always after the fact, always memory based, never new and creative. Insight is exactly what thinking is not.

max

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Sun, 07 Feb 2016 #3
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Don't just make things up because you think they sound good. This is one of the reasons it's so difficult to get a discussion going and running on this site.

So this is your 'explanation' Jack ? It is always interesting to see how mind builds 'explanations' to suit its own purpose and defend its own consistency ... isn't this called 'rationalization' ?

Personally I think that lack of respect would be a more valid 'explanation' and a major obstacle to dialogue ... but of course this is just another 'explanation' ...

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 07 Feb 2016 #4
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5655 posts in this forum Offline

Jean, I've said it before and I don't mind saying it again. You're an idiot. These are facts about insight Jean. But of course I don't expect you to understand that.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 07 Feb 2016.

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Sun, 07 Feb 2016 #5
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Jean, I've said it before and I don't mind saying it again. You're an idiot.

Why this need to create images of others Jack ? Is this an 'insight' ?

??

Why resist 'what is' ?

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Sun, 07 Feb 2016 #6
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Perhaps we could talk when Jack will get a little more serious and stop being so childish. Bringing up K quote instead of thinking on your own is surely a sign of an insightful man.

This post was last updated by Voco . Sun, 07 Feb 2016.

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Tue, 09 Feb 2016 #7
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Perhaps we could talk when Jack will get a little more serious and stop being so childish. Bringing up K quote instead of thinking on your own is surely a sign of an insightful man.

If you ever had an insight, even a partial one, you would also not support the statement that jack said was incorrect.

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Tue, 09 Feb 2016 #8
Thumb_3288 jaidip k India 51 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
how thought is absent when you have an insight.

True enough and I submit that we all have these insights.It is when insight is converted into memory that the mischief begins,no?
Insight is of the moment and to function from it is probably its betrayal

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Tue, 09 Feb 2016 #9
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

jaidip k wrote:
It is when insight is converted into memory that the mischief begins,no?

Awareness (insight) is the source of memory. There is no memory without awareness. Memory is a recording of experience in the cells of the brain, and it is a neutral recording, without emotion and "mischief." The mischief begins when thinking is applied to memory.

The "natural" use of memory is the use of memory together with awareness.

max

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Wed, 10 Feb 2016 #10
Thumb_3288 jaidip k India 51 posts in this forum Offline

The "memory"of an insight,however untainted by thought cannot be the insight itself,no?

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Wed, 10 Feb 2016 #11
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

jaidip k wrote:
The "memory"of an insight,however untainted by thought cannot be the insight itself, no?

The memory of insight, untainted by thought, is the insight itself as it was at the time.

Awareness (insight) and memory are inseparable. At the moment of awareness, there is only that of which there is awareness -- quite literally, there is no observer, only the observed. With awareness there is inescapably a memory of the observed.

As I see it, there is a difference between the memory of awareness and the image formed by thinking. Memory is physical; image is psychological.

max

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Thu, 11 Feb 2016 #12
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

You all are guessing and out of this guess , making theories that are useless.

Insight has no memory, even a partial insight.

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Thu, 11 Feb 2016 #13
Thumb_photo_jg4 Jean Gatti Belgium 8638 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Jean, I've said it before and I don't mind saying it again ...

"Fighting a response always leads to further resistance."

Quote of the Day :-)

... another way to say "What you resist persists" (Carl Jung)

Why resist 'what is' ?

This post was last updated by Jean Gatti Thu, 11 Feb 2016.

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Thu, 11 Feb 2016 #14
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Is a perception insight?

mike

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Thu, 11 Feb 2016 #15
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Is a perception insight?

Insight has no other meaning other than what is in sight. What you call an insight is just seeing, it's not understanding, understanding is something artificial because it requires your explanation, your interpretation.

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Thu, 11 Feb 2016 #16
Thumb_farside0411 m christani United States 262 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Insight has no other meaning other than what is in sight. What you call an insight is just seeing

Right. Then there's this notion of complete insight. Good luck on that. I'll ask again- is insight perception?

mike

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Thu, 11 Feb 2016 #17
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Is a perception insight?

I would say that it is. We can quibble over words, but perception, awareness, attention are all modes of sensing and to sense is to come into contact with. With contact comes unity.

max

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Thu, 11 Feb 2016 #18
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Right. Then there's this notion of complete insight. Good luck on that. I'll ask again- is insight perception?

What is insight? How do you see it?

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #19
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

m christani wrote:
Is a perception insight?

Pl refer '
About the unconscious mind......Revisited' P Sylvan quoting k :" .....that in Perception, thought no longer takes itself to be something that it isn’t."

In this quote, perception is insight.

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Fri, 12 Feb 2016 #20
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
What is insight? How do you see it?

Pl refer to post 102 " About the unconscious mind......Revisited"

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Sat, 13 Feb 2016 #21
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
Pl refer to post 102 " About the unconscious mind......Revisited"

Post #102 from " About the unconscious mind......Revisited":

Ravi Seth wrote:
Good,Sylvan.

Therefore there is another factor as pointed out by k , that of 'perception' , that makes the thought realize its limitation.

Hearing this the thought then asks 'how to have that perception?', little realizing this question itself is arising from its mechanical activity :-)

What does that mean? How is thought realizing it's own limitation? Is it inability to answer a posed question which itself came out of thought?

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