Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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About the unconscious mind......Revisited


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Wed, 03 Feb 2016 #1
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

Jean Gatti: What an emotional tsunami ... a storm in a cup of tea indeed ...

End of discussion.

Jean you certainly seem determined to get the last word in not matter what you have to do. What an astoundingly arrogant thing to do.

Sooner or later you will have to face what you are doing and face who you are. All of us have to do that. You can't keep running from it. And I'll be damn if I will let you tell me when the subject is closed. If you insist on spewing out this opinionated garbage then you will have to expect others to point it out to you. You'll know when this topic closed for me when I stop posting.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Wed, 03 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 03 Feb 2016 #2
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

Wim, I have long suggested that the best way not encourage Jean's rants and ramblings is to not post to them. Jean is not interested in discussing what K pointed out. Indeed he doesn't seem to know what K pointed out. He would rather just endlessly regurgitate the reams of mostly useless knowledge he has memorized.

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Wed, 03 Feb 2016 #3
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

You seems pretty much obsessed with Jean, apart from that you humiliate the man and also other people here, it doesn't matter who the man is, what's wrong with you, what's your problem? Do you need a punchbag? What makes you think someone is running from you? Perhaps he closed the thread so to stop this useless talk which is going nowhere, you seem don't want to admit that and you started a new thread.

And also is K is the center of the universe? Why can't you listen what others are saying too, if you listen to K?

This post was last updated by Voco . Wed, 03 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 03 Feb 2016 #4
Thumb_stringio natarajan s India 257 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jean Gatti wrote:
but I am certainly not ready to compromise with truth just to please others and their erroneous beliefs and opinions ...

Jean, this needs to be addressed.

Truth is something which we can't compromise with even if we wanted to do because we can't hold it within ourselves and mold it as we please. But since you have used it in that sense, it is the 'value system' you uphold which is erroneously identified with the truth. Once the personality is entangled with the value system which we feel to be true then we go to lengths to defend it uncompromisingly as what is being witnessed here tells. I suggest, you let go of that value system, and see that no identification of any sort with anything can help us to relate with the other, the value system we hold isolates us, no matter how lofty we consider or feel it to be.

contraria sunt complementa

This post was last updated by natarajan s (account deleted) Wed, 03 Feb 2016.

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Wed, 03 Feb 2016 #5
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Wherever you go, everywhere there are people who telling you how to live, what to do, what not to do, what is right and what is wrong, who gives you endless advices and suggestions even if you haven't asked to give them, but this very desire to guide another is violence. If you don't come to a teacher, a teacher comes to you, what world we are living in...

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Wed, 03 Feb 2016 #6
Thumb_stringio natarajan s India 257 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Voco . wrote:
If you don't come to a teacher, a teacher comes to you, what world we are living in...

Acceptance of the other is one thing, but seeing beyond it is quite another.

contraria sunt complementa

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Wed, 03 Feb 2016 #7
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Do you need a punchbag?

Take that! And that! And that, you &@:.,&@$.

Next.

max

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #8
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
You seems pretty much obsessed with Jean, apart from that you humiliate the man

Not obsessed but often distressed. You are new to this forum. Jean has been spreading his manure on here for years. And always the same thing. He is right and everyone else is wrong. Jean never questions himself and when others question him he flees or shuts down the thread. He won't answer any questions about or explain how he arrived at any of his fairly pedestrian conclusions.

That tag line at the bottom of his posts is something he has been using on and off for a long time. What he is really saying is "Shut Up" and listen to what I have to say.

And as for you Voco you have had a chip on your shoulder ever since you first started posting on here. You have done plenty of your own insulting and being rude.

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #9
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

Voco . wrote:
Wherever you go, everywhere there are people who telling you how to live, what to do, what not to do, what is right and what is wrong, who gives you endless advices and suggestions even if you haven't asked to give them, but this very desire to guide another is violence. If you don't come to a teacher, a teacher comes to you, what world we are living in...

You mean like you are doing in your above post?

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #10
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Wim, I have long suggested that the best way not encourage Jean's rants and ramblings is to not post to them. Jean is not interested in discussing what K pointed out. Indeed he doesn't seem to know what K pointed out. He would rather just endlessly regurgitate the reams of mostly useless knowledge he has memorized.

Jack, I see it otherwize

the more we are gonna talk about the more successful he will be in his performance. Read the lyric below from the old time:

Everybody's talking at me
I don't hear a word they're saying
Only the echoes of my mind

People stopping, staring
I can't see their faces
Only the shadows of their eyes

I'm going where the sun keeps shining
Through the pouring rain
Going where the weather suits my clothes

Banking off of the northeast winds
Sailing on a summer breeze
And skipping over the ocean like a stone

I'm going where the sun keeps shining
Through the pouring rain
Going where the weather suits my clothes

Banking off of the northeast winds
Sailing on a summer breeze
And skipping over the ocean like a stone

Everybody's talking at me
Can't hear a word they're saying
Only the echoes of my mind

I won't let you leave my love behind
No, I won't let you leave
I won't let you leave my love behind

Read more: Harry Nilsson - Everybody's Talkin Lyrics | MetroLyrics

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #11
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Not obsessed but often distressed. You are new to this forum. Jean has been spreading his manure on here for years. And always the same thing. He is right and everyone else is wrong. Jean never questions himself and when others question him he flees or shuts down the thread. He won't answer any questions about or explain how he arrived at any of his fairly pedestrian conclusions.

You don't have to accept what he is saying, Jack, one might be all wrong, talk nonsense, just repeat someone and so on, you tell it once and that's enough, if one do not sees that, that's his problem, not yours, why try to change someone, you can't make everyone alike. Everyone has a right to express himself freely, no matter who the man is. We have to understand, that man might not meet our expectations, that he might be conditioned by the society, by culture, by various knowledge and so on, that does not means that we need to chase someone for his "wrong views".

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #12
Thumb_stringio natarajan s India 257 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Voco . wrote:
We have to understand, that man might not meet our expectations, that he might be conditioned by the society, by culture, by various knowledge and so on, that does not means that we need to chase someone for his "wrong views"

Voco, you are invoking the gestalt prayer so to speak, however non-acceptance could be within the ambit of acceptance and relating, non-acceptance does not always mean the end of relating and therefore reacting. We can't draw boundaries and restrict action when the relationship could be happening in a genuine spirit. We have to leave that to the parties involved in discussion. As I see.

contraria sunt complementa

This post was last updated by natarajan s (account deleted) Thu, 04 Feb 2016.

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #13
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan s wrote:
We can't draw boundaries and restrict action when the relationship could be happening in a genuine spirit. We have to leave that to the parties involved in discussion. As I see.

Are you saying that we should stay neutral? I'm not taking sides, just saying that perhaps we could find a basis upon which we all could agree, because without that basis each one will just try to prove to another his righteousness and will think that others are trying to do the same.

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #14
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

Voco you're missing the point on Jean. Jean has posted more than 7000 times on this forum in two and one half years and virtually said nothing relating to what Krishnamurti pointed out.(Jean deletes many of his posts to make it appear that he is posting less than he does) This is many times more than anyone else on this forum. He tries to dominate this site. Floods it with inane, irrelevant and, more often than not, material that has nothing to do with what K pointed out. In fact it is often in opposition to what K pointed out.

Jean doesn't discuss he preaches. He has not once on this forum allowed for the possibility that he may be mistaken. He is, in his own mind, infallible. Jean does not respond to or accept being questioned about anything he writes. He is one of many who have come on here believing that he or she is enlightened, has found the truth and is here to show us ignorant bastards the way to enlightenment. He dominates many threads and often comes unbidden to insult others. He highjacks threads and deflects the discussion with a flood of inane and off topic posts.

He has been thrown off this forum more times than I can remember for good cause. Jean is the poster child for what K pointed out we must end through understanding. He is an example of what we all are or have been and must move beyond if there is to be freedom from conditioning.

This is why I question Jean and will continue to do so if he continues to post on this forum. But maybe he has found a home away from this forum. A place where enlightened inquiry goes to die to be resurrected as superficial speculation and random opinions.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Thu, 04 Feb 2016.

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #15
Thumb_stringio natarajan s India 257 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Voco . wrote:
without that basis each one will just try to prove to another his righteousness and will think that others are trying to do the same.

Voco, as I see, sharing the common space of dialogue, they have to work to establish that basis, it can neither be given to them nor can we take it away.

contraria sunt complementa

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #16
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
A place where enlightened inquiry goes to die to be resurrected as superficial speculation and random opinions.

You are saying, here, that this forum is a place of enlightened enquiry? Jean is taking his enlightened enquiry elsewhere?

max

This post was last updated by max greene Thu, 04 Feb 2016.

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #17
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Voco you're missing the point on Jean.

Aren't you also Jack??

Did he not hold you by the balls if you keep on agitated ??

Ultimately, you don't know him, you just know that its manifestation on the forum is different than you see as decent and honest.

after an accusation towards him and examination within himself Krishnamurti said:

"It is not right and that's all?"

P.S.: I changed the words of the lyric somewhat:

Everybody's talking about him
He don't hear a word we're saying
Only the echoes of his mind.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 04 Feb 2016.

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #18
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
Jack Pine wrote:
Voco you're missing the point on Jean.

Aren't you also Jack??

No. And the rest of your post isn't worth a response. I'm not even sure you know what you're trying to say so don't expect me to.

Give it up Wim. If you want to encourage Jean's style of celebrating his conditioning instead of at least attempting to understand what K pointed out then do. But don't berate me for not wanting to do it.

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #19
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
You are saying, here, that this forum is a place of enlightened enquiry?

Occasionally yes. The other one a safe spot to say any outlandish thing you want without having to be concerned with being honestly and thoroughly questioned.

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Thu, 04 Feb 2016 #20
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
Jean is taking his enlightened enquiry elsewhere?

Max, what kind of idiot question is that? Don't you have something better to do than to try to hassle me?

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Fri, 05 Feb 2016 #21
Thumb_3288 jaidip k India 51 posts in this forum Offline

There is a lot of energy in these forums.Unfortunately,it seems to be the energy of friction,the same kind that generates competition,nationalism and all that.

Can we "revisit" the unconscious without having to ridicule each other to get our observations across?
Otherwise ,it seems a Jean Gati is necessary !

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Fri, 05 Feb 2016 #22
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1397 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
I'm not even sure you know what you're trying to say so don't expect me to.

I'm sure what I was trying to say but you will never be sure about what I was trying to say, not for me not for anyone else.

so no expectation on this side.

and for Jean, it seems he has withdrawn himself in the safehouse.

max greene wrote:
Jean is taking his enlightened enquiry elsewhere?

Maybe he's gone behave intelligently in the 'quiet space', we don't know??

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Fri, 05 Feb 2016 #23
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
Voco you're missing the point on Jean. Jean has posted more than 7000 times on this forum in two and one half years and virtually said nothing relating to what Krishnamurti pointed out.(Jean deletes many of his posts to make it appear that he is posting less than he does) This is many times more than anyone else on this forum. He tries to dominate this site. Floods it with inane, irrelevant and, more often than not, material that has nothing to do with what K pointed out. In fact it is often in opposition to what K pointed out.

I'm not quite sure why at all you are so interested in what others are doing, and why you want to talk about someone's deeds and judge them, is there nothing more to do? For me the number of posts don't mean anything, it could be 1 billion or it could only 50 posts, the number itself doesn't tells anything. How do you know he tries to dominate this site? Just because he is talking more than you? Maybe it's you who want to dominate this site? Perhaps for you what he posts is irrelevant and it does not have any value because it does not correlates with what K says, but my question to you is, does it have to be? If you say it must necessarily be so, then you build a wall around you, you are making this place for a few who are all alike, you are establishing an authority and this is what leads to decline.

Do you have some ideal of what this place should be, and are you comparing what others are doing with this ideal? Do you expect everyone to talk same as Krishnamurti? Why do you think you have a right to scorn someone for their deeds?

Jack Pine wrote:
Jean doesn't discuss he preaches. He has not once on this forum allowed for the possibility that he may be mistaken

No one has to say this publicly. You are being violent if you are requiring a public confession.

Jack Pine wrote:
He is, in his own mind, infallible. Jean does not respond to or accept being questioned about anything he writes. He is one of many who have come on here believing that he or she is enlightened, has found the truth and is here to show us ignorant bastards the way to enlightenment.

Even if it's so, that's his business, not yours or mine. Who knows, if you don't think the same about yourself?

Jack Pine wrote:
He has been thrown off this forum more times than I can remember for good cause. Jean is the poster child for what K pointed out we must end through understanding. He is an example of what we all are or have been and must move beyond if there is to be freedom from conditioning.

If you don't want his or someone's else presence here and if he don't fit this forum image, you just say it. And you cannot require others to change under any pretext.

Jack Pine wrote:
This is why I question Jean and will continue to do so if he continues to post on this forum. But maybe he has found a home away from this forum. A place where enlightened inquiry goes to die to be resurrected as superficial speculation and random opinions.

You might be right, but you might be not. What you say does not necessarily represents the facts. You could say that just about everyone, because it seems you know better than anyone else what is enlightened inquiry...

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Fri, 05 Feb 2016 #24
Thumb_3252 Voco . Luxembourg 878 posts in this forum Offline

natarajan s wrote:
Voco, as I see, sharing the common space of dialogue, they have to work to establish that basis, it can neither be given to them nor can we take it away.

That's what I'm saying, let's find that out, but no, we took up positions and we are acting from that position.

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Fri, 05 Feb 2016 #25
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

Voco, you know you are trying to do to me the exact same thing you are accusing me of doing to Jean. Only you do it in a lot more words with a lot less accuracy.

You're really starting to bore me. Why do you think my pointing out why Jean limits this forum is something you need to comment on. And in such great length.

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Fri, 05 Feb 2016 #26
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

Wim you have not only frequently criticized Jean in the past you have done so using vulgar words. Surprisingly nasty words that most of us don't use on this site. So stop being a hypocrite.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Fri, 05 Feb 2016.

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Fri, 05 Feb 2016 #27
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5715 posts in this forum Offline

jaidip k wrote:
Can we "revisit" the unconscious without having to ridicule each other to get our observations across?

OK let's revisit the original thread by Jean about the "unconscious". It should have started with a clear and serious discussing about what conscious and unconscious are. Are they separate? But instead he started assuming he knew what consciousness is and that everyone else agreed on his definition.

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Fri, 05 Feb 2016 #28
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Jack Pine wrote:
. . . a clear and serious discussing about what conscious and unconscious are. Are they separate?

I would say that consciousness is thought. There is no "the unconscious" -- unconscious thought -- instead, there is memory, deep, possibly repressed. Memory is recalled, and with the consideration of memory -- thinking -- we have consciousness.

max

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Fri, 05 Feb 2016 #29
Thumb_stringio richard nolet Canada 39 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Jack Pine wrote:

. . . a clear and serious discussing about what conscious and unconscious are. Are they separate?

max greene wrote:
I would say that consciousness is thought. There is no "the unconscious" -- unconscious thought -- instead, there is memory, deep, possibly repressed. Memory is recalled, and with the consideration of memory -- thinking -- we have consciousness.

Listening. You give your opinion, without simply answering the question. Read Jack's post again....what was his question ? Futhermore, you already have a bunch of conclusions.

This post was last updated by richard nolet (account deleted) Fri, 05 Feb 2016.

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Fri, 05 Feb 2016 #30
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Tell me what the question was that I didn't answer.

As for the post being an opinion, show me where this opinion is in error. If you can't do this, why did you say anything at all, muddying the water?

max

This post was last updated by max greene Fri, 05 Feb 2016.

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