Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.


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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #631
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel pol wrote:
Agree that what we usually mean by intelligence is cunning ,winning,cheating, and all of it...
Remain these "vague" special moments when I/we know that something totally different is happening....may be this word of intelligence fits here...

What state of mind does this define for an individual?(a condition of the mind).1)I know,2)I believe, and 3) I do not know.

I know you have stated your postion.

I think unless we completely discern significance of cognizance we may not get clarity of the intelligence.

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #632
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:

Dan: Remain these "vague" special moments when I/we know that something totally different is happening....may be this word of intelligence fits here...

arjuna: What state of mind does this define for an individual?(a condition of the mind).1)I know,2)I believe, and 3) I do not know.

The "vague special" moment I talk about cannot be "missed". It is not the usual state of mind . It is in direct touch with the problems, meaning that it is another part of the mind which does that, not the analytical(my view and of some too).....this is why somehow in your on way , passively "using" the disturbance is vital as it does seem to turn on such "capacity".

As such this state we talk about here acts on the "state" of the whole mind (or at least widen its functions)bringing relief and more,then it is not about believes or not knowing....it is discovering so learning time.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
I think unless we completely discern significance of cognizance we may not get clarity of the intelligence

not my experience. to be disturbed is one trick which works, to let it free brings clarity , the clarity of the understanding of root problems and more...but there is no way to tell another ,again it has to be lived then it is clear, I find worthy to go slowly in such matter....as long as the unconscious remains...unconscious for the self ,nothing much is going to happen, is what I know so far.....so far is important of course. To be out of your mind may be required at least once......

cheers..

DAN.....

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Wed, 25 Jul 2012 #633
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel pol wrote:
arjuna: What state of mind does this define for an individual?(a condition of the mind).1)I know,2)I believe, and 3) I do not know.

This is the out come of July 21 quote.Infact I was myself little stunned with this statement.One wonders if this is not true discription of average indiviual in this world.We may not agree with it.When the question of comprehension comes,it is I think best discribed in today's quote25July.However your post is important when one needs to undertsand question of handling the personal disturbances comes.

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Wed, 25 Jul 2012.

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Wed, 25 Jul 2012 #634
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel pol wrote:
it is not about believes or not knowing....it is discovering so learning time.

Yes, I think so.

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Wed, 25 Jul 2012 #635
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

krishnamurti:-
"Is there depth to life, to existence at all? Is all relationship shallow? Can thought ever discover it? Thought is the only instrument that man has cultivated and sharpened, and when that's denied as a means to the understanding of depth in life, then the mind seeks other means.

To lead a shallow life soon becomes wearying, boring, meaningless and from this arises the constant pursuit of pleasure, fears, conflict and violence. To see the fragments that thought has brought about and their activity, as a whole, is the ending of thought. Perception of the whole is only possible when the observer, who is one of the fragments of thought, is not active. Then action is relationship and never leads to conflict and sorrow".

J. Krishnamurti, Krishnamurti's Journal, p. 99

Arjuna , I find that quote from K quite relevant to what we talk about here .

the fragment we use looks at itself or to what it consider at itself though memory but even more as it looks at the future as it wants it to be, so it looks at the memory of the future where all is planned and should be the way it is thought....no need to tell more in fact I think..

DAN.....

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Wed, 25 Jul 2012 #636
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
when the question of comprehension comes,it is I think best described in today's quote 25 July.

agreed, yes .

The quote you refer to says : Truth is to be comprehended, to be discerned, not to be explained. It is, but is not to be sought after.

Even at a less "divine" state; so not mentioning the eventual presence of this "undefined otherness" , but just to mention the "capacity" to solve problems, for me this too cannot be sought after by the analytical ,this is only what I write about here in my own ways.
The fragment called "analytical" cannot solve most problems apart from practical ones and even in its field it can be a disaster too....after all it is the analytical which leads the world, unless to be voluntarily deaf, blind and dumb ,this world is factually insane ,and this world is the analytical world....glorifying itself with some "success" forgetting the misery of everyday life, or rather pretending that we ,a s a species, are on the right track.....

For me before to go into a describing of the analytical ,which I personally find useless "for me"(I refuse to tell for you) in a direct approach , I am to learn for myself to live with all what bothers me lightly or very deeply, this reveals without to be sought after ,because at some stage there is only sorrow or disturbance there....this turns on "something" on which I have no control at all.

DAN.....

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Wed, 25 Jul 2012 #637
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

K: "Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man’s pretence that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure observation without direction, without fear of punishment and reward. Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the evolution of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In observation one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in the choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity."

And I insist to say that , that kind of "choiceless awareness" arises when what we call sorrow is left free ...it is another "process" capacity, talent, whatever word suits here , who cares about the word indeed as long as we agree on its meaning...

I say that this "capacity" well, it is already in us.....and in my view it has to be as well because if not it is the Universe which is responsible for our dummies' mind ,which would be even worse as it would mean that we are nuts because the Universe it nuts...if you follow this bit of logical thinking..

so there is no spirituality? , but a state of the mind which can deal with what is wrong . OK but what is wrong ? When I leave my hand in the fire it burns so I deal with this simple problem. When sorrow burns my mind , it indicates that something is wrong and that I have to do "something " about it. Remains to find out what I have to do ! :-)....

DAN.....

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Wed, 25 Jul 2012 #638
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

It is suggested that the ignorance/I-process are the direct result of the process of want .Why is process of want so imporant for I-processs?

Once the species cognizes/aware (that it is what it is) of itself,it appears it is intaited to the process of wanting.It's want starts with air and breathing process for its survivals.There are many such wants for survival.In what way these are an act of ignorance?

There is a tendancy to perpetuat the the wants beyond the needs and necessities and extend it to pleasure principle.Is that the starting point of ignirance/sorrow/ time/memory/ self?

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Wed, 25 Jul 2012 #639
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
It is suggested that the ignorance/I-process are the direct result of the process of want.

Well arjuna, each time "I" had been defeated by sorrow, as it is sorrow that life is about so far for millennium ,.... is not it ?.... each time was there so to be seen the deep unexpected seeing that "I want" as a craving whatever the cause were , is THE problem.

Again the analytical explanation of that is not enough at all , of course we have to use it here to communicate..

but to go back to this discernment you mentioned , there may be a logical "order" to discern what comes first as a matter of "doing something about sorrow" so by extension about man's insanity ...

DAN.....

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Thu, 26 Jul 2012 #640
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Left for a walk after responding to Donato D's enquiry.Mind was pre-occupied with the question of 'process of want',just than the poster walked a distance of half a kilometer distance,he found a half rupee coin,the initial reaction was one of relectance to it, and just past the coin ,only to get back and pick up the coin without any reaction.It started its reaction once it was held in the hand;after all it was half a rupe,120th part of doller,slilently the hand went into the pocket and kept the coin safe.At nowhere did the 'me' let lose its grip entire episode.It was not the question of having the coin or not , it was about its presence and say which it appears to perpetuate.The process of want seems to make sure of its presence and say.It never allowed the coin to get out of its influence.It made the poster to place coin on the fridge where he kept simillar coin that was found on street previously.A repeat action.

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sun, 29 Jul 2012.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #641
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

It is more than a year that poster had been member of this site.What has he done, being its member for more than 12 months?Why did he choose to be its member?He become its member to test his new found interest in JK's teachings?.Is there desire underneath this inquisitiveness?That is what today's quote seems to suggest(31-07-2012).

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sun, 05 Aug 2012.

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Tue, 31 Jul 2012 #642
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

"To many, what I say will remain a theory, it will be vague and uncertain; but if you will discern its validity or accept it as an hypothesis, not as a law or as a dogma, then you can comprehend its active significance in daily life. Our morality, conduct, concepts and longings are based fundamentally on the desire for self-perpetuation. The self is but the result of accumulated memories, which causes friction between itself and the movement of life, between the definite and the indefinite values. This friction itself is the "I" process, and it cannot be made in..to the eternal. If we can grasp this fundamentally, fully, then our whole attitude and effort will have a different significance and purpose"

Quote of the day 31-07-2012.

In the context of this statement,can the poster reveal himself?Is he trying to show his knowldge of teachings Of jk?Is there a strugglebetween what he owned as his understanding previously and what he learnt for lost 12 months?Is he getting loaded with his postings?Or is trying to get out of influences?Is he really influenced by JK or was it just an escape from himself?.These are few of his musings.Right at present is it, what he is?Will he change further?

Who should answer these questions,except himself?Will the answers remain fixed, do they change as situation changes?The answers, he can not make it public,except allow his mind cool down.

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sun, 05 Aug 2012.

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Wed, 01 Aug 2012 #643
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Is there an experience of comprehension without comprehender?

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Wed, 01 Aug 2012.

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Sun, 05 Aug 2012 #644
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Is one in a single prison, or several prisons in concentric circles of motivations, prejudices,and several other cravings?If one were to come out of one prison,there are several others to get free from.If one were to be out all prisons one needs to understand the sorrow which one creates out of ignorance/(due to the )I-process.Could one get out of time bound fullfillment of desire without allowing the immediate urges which infact come into existance due to the same desire, to workout thier full strength without interupting them?,which is the cause of sorrow.

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Tue, 07 Aug 2012 #645
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The immediate urges are strong and affective pleading forces of unfullfilled desires hidden somewhere.The deep rooted desires may not directly reveal themselves through these urges, but work thier way out without being noticed at conscious level.This is due to instant brewing of ignorance by I- consciousness,which perpectuates the sorrow,which never would be felt as some thing harmfull to well being of humans.Humans float in sorrow and suffer,inspite of that sorrow never becomes a strong motivetor of discernment.

Allowing the urges to exghaust themselves without altering/modifying/avoiding them,would perhaps see that the deep rooted desire could come into open, dissolve itself without making a case for itself again.

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Wed, 08 Aug 2012 #646
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

What does it mean to live simply?To live without much hardship and hassles,could one say that life is simple?It could be a life of ignorance,where the one has not put one's full potential to discern oneself.

It is ignorance of the being/individual due to its obsession to the process of wanting which prevents the indivual to rise to it's full potential to understand itself.The lack of discernment makes the indvidual to tie down itself to the conflicts,where 'me' has its full control.Then life is not that simple.Is the discernment of oneself alone a simple life?

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Tue, 14 Aug 2012 #647
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Ask what one is certain about,the reply would be one of blankness or one is not sure of what is certainity about.It is only highly focused on what they want only such people who are certain or infact highly motivated.Certainity goes with the motivation?Motivation is such strong affair,it turns out to be a belief.When desire is deep rooted,one has several mental protective structure oven round oneself,hardly one lets loose one's mental grip .The disturbance comes only after the result of one's gratification,and satisfaction is out.Satisfaction,and gratification are memories of one's past experiences.One expects those feelings of old experiences repeated exactly in the same way.Can one expect to be guaranteed of the same quality of experiences?That yard stick of equivalent or comparative old experiences is always deceptive.The purpose of satisfaction gets defeated.Perhaps the gratification or satisfaction are possible only when both gratifier and satisfier are absent from eventfull situation.But that is not how one tends to behave in a market place.Can we really do marketing without any images,and do it only based on our needs?Do we have images about our needs?

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Tue, 14 Aug 2012 #648
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

It was time to leave for walking ,and was just asked to stay back for some time.It was half past 6.30 in the evening.It was past the sunset, the entire vegitation would go to sleep for day.Though same beauty of greenary would be there,the spontaneity of its playfull nature that was there when sunshine was floating over the vegitation in the day time would absent.The poster had to be guilty for the distrubance he created.

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Sat, 18 Aug 2012 #649
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

We make effort to do some thing,and it goes along with some desire behind it.The problem is we hardly comprehend the entire desire, instead attention is on the final outcome.It often results in despair due to the slur on genuine efforts being made due to lack of understanding of the desire.Making efforts for expected/aspired results becomes a habit.Just to over come the sorrow due to failed efforts, traditionally you are told to make efforts without expecting results or leave the result to the diven.Is that really possible?Even if do that,desire haunts.What do we do in such situations?Just give up efforts?Does that mean we have given up desire?Can one really stay away from desire?Doing things without expecting anything in return,does it really make any sense?Do we have no other choice except to understand the desire?

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sat, 18 Aug 2012.

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Sat, 18 Aug 2012 #650
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Can one really stay away from desire?Doing things without expecting anything in return,does it really make any sense?Do we have no other choice except to understand the desire?

To have desire is a beautiful state of mind, but has you say the reward that we attach to it is a problem because it is an on going deception. So can I be in a full state of desire and wanting every thing that life has to offer and at the same time having no projection/rewards attach to this desire? Isn’t the state of desire, happiness for most of us?

A well base effort is also a beautiful state of mind, not expecting any out come of our desire make sense. So can we be full of desire and not wanting any thing out of it? You are asking can we live with desire and not expecting nothing? When we have desire the brain work well, when the brain work well it has no boundary, can we learn to live with desire-which is energies - and at the same time understand it’s limited power? Do we need to understand desire only has strength/force, not so much has a means to get some thing? Do we need to understand desire or do we need to understand how the brain is using desire? The brain does not seem to care that much about my objective, it seem to me that it only want the energies that come with desire.
What is the brain with out desire?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Sat, 18 Aug 2012 #651
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
So can I be in a full state of desire and wanting every thing that life has to offer and at the same time having no projection/rewards attach to this desire? Isn’t the state of desire, happiness for most of us?

True,this is what every body aspires for.But this demand is such that we may be wanting joy out of it,but not the pain.The saving grace is that you do not want self-projection,that might imply that you are not interested in the outcome.At the same time you expect life to offer you everything that it can give.Is there no subtle form of desire in it?Taking whatever fruits that life offers without any expectation is definitely without self-projection.Normally effort gets energy from desire;a self-projection.There needs to be lot of attention to avoid self-projection in our efforts.Really meditative!

jean-m girard wrote:
What is the brain with out desire?

I have no ready made answer to your question.It needs probe.Of course JK had answer for it.We have to search for it.

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Sat, 18 Aug 2012 #652
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
can we learn to live with desire-which is energies - and at the same time understand it’s limited power? Do we need to understand desire only has strength/force, not so much as a means to get some thing? Do we need to understand desire or do we need to understand how the brain is using desire? The brain does not seem to care that much about my objective, it seem to me that it only want the energies that come with desire

To get some thing done,apart from energy,it needs intelligence.Desire can generate thought.A thought can offer manupulations and cunningness.It has its own influence on the outcome.Can there be intelligence when desire prevails?There is lot of difference between intelligence,and thought manupulation and cunningness.

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Sat, 18 Aug 2012 #653
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
There needs to be lot of attention to avoid self-projection in our efforts.Really meditative!

Most of us have driven our life from desire, I know that the being aware (state of meditation) of our objective, could result in a transformation of a desire’s state of mind, you are left only with the thought, the energies behind it disappear, so there is no longer any attraction to this objective. Isn’t it the intensity of desire that is so attractive?

Yes we need to pay attention, contrary to desire , attention will never disappoint us.

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Sat, 18 Aug 2012 #654
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
The brain does not seem to care that much about my objective

The brain does not care about us, it only think of it self and what it want, maybe because it is a machine?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Sat, 18 Aug 2012 #655
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
Isn’t it the intensity of desire that is so attractive?

Yes,it is pleasure.But its dual could also show of its ugly face.

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Sat, 18 Aug 2012 #656
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
The brain does not care about us, it only think of it self and what it want, maybe because it is a machine?

Brain is bothered about,order in its function,security of its system,and safety of its organic body,It is the I-process which is responsble for most of the ignorance.

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Wed, 22 Aug 2012 #657
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

It does not take much time to get frustrated,one failure would put one to a feeling of lose,and then sorrow is not far of.To be aware of frustration due to one's own desire and its consequences,is some thing very seldom, one would be familiar with,because the nature of craving is such that it always draws the individual to aspiration for some thing which it may or may not be feasible to achieve.The mind always avoids being alone.A mind without any avocation gives a feeling of lonliness,neglect and eventual suffering.But the awarness of this frustration would eventually focuses on the cause of frustration,invariable it puts attention on desire,and its the basic edifice the craving,which is much more hidden in the consciouness.Going deep down to origin of craving would depend on sustaining the focus on frustration,normally one would try one's best to get out of the frustration by resoring to seeking some thingelse.It could be a full circle again!

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Fri, 24 Aug 2012.

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Tue, 28 Aug 2012 #658
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

"Faith, has led man away from this world into a world of conjectures, hopes and idealism, thus aiding him to escape from conflict and confusion."
The quote of today(28-08-2012).

This view, it appears that one of the extream views of the life,where one could still continue the life of gratification,satisfaction,and safety,and yet be assured of life eternal in other world.Is this not the self deceiving?The other exteam is pure mechenical life as defined in the quote of 27-08-2012.Is that to say actual life independent of both views,and much more open ended and live active?

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Wed, 29 Aug 2012 #659
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

"There is a different way of looking at life, not from the point of view of the opposites, of faith and of science, of fear and of the mechanical; and that is to comprehend life, not as manifested in the universe, but as a process focussed in each individual. That is, each one has to discern the process of becoming and the process of apparently ceasing, of being born and of dying. This process alone is wholly perceptible to the individual as consciousness. Please see this point clearly. The process that is at work in the universe or in another individual cannot be discerned except as it is focussed in you, the individual.

The inclination to accept the mechanistic view of life, or to embrace the security and comfort that faith offers, does not lead to true discernment of what is. Reality is to be comprehended only through the "I" process, as consciousness, from which arises individuality. That is, one has to understand the process of one's own becoming, which involves intelligence, an acute discernment, a constant awareness. In understanding oneself integrally there comes the possibility of having true life values, of true relationship with other individuals, with society."

This quote of today(29-08-2012) puts the things in its true perspective with regards looking at our own life.It is not life is between two extream points of view,but it is as it unfolds from moment as the process of I takes its hold on the being from moment to moment.

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Thu, 30 Aug 2012 #660
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

"All things come into being through the process of energy, which is unique to each individual. You and I are the results of that energy which in the course of its development creates those prejudices, tendencies and cravings that make each individual unique. Now, this process which is without a beginning, in its movement, in its action, becomes consciousness through sensation, perception, and discernment. This consciousness is perceptible to the senses as individuality. Its action is born of ignorance which is friction. The energy which is unique to each individual, is not to be glorified.

Of this process of perpetuating ignorance as consciousness, perceptible to sense as individuality, you must become aware, so that to you it becomes an actuality and no longer a theory. Then only will there be a fundamental change of values which alone will bring about true relationship of the individual to his environment, to society. If you are able to discern this process of ignorance which is without a beginning, and comprehend also that it can be brought to an end through the cessation of its own volitional activity, then you will perceive that you are entirely master of your destiny, utterly self-reliant and not dependent on circumstances or on faith for conduct and relationship."

This is perhaps the continuation of last two day's quotes which described the 'individual' and its nature and its moorings.This particular quote describs how it actually understood in the presence of pure awareness.The question how one keeps one's mind conducive to the awareness is what matters.

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