Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
General Discussion | moderated by Dev Singh

A stroll in a day..... a reflection of the mind....past, present,&future.


Displaying posts 601 - 630 of 743 in total
Thu, 12 Jul 2012 #601
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

There is no absolute conditioning of the mind/brain, only conditioning of the mind/brain.It is due to the fallout of arguments with Lidlo lady,it came out into the open, which we did not agree as it is the individual's conclusion.

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Thu, 12 Jul 2012 #602
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
You are an accumulation. "You" is just a lot of stuff, content, reflecting itself and saying, "I exist!".

What you see is what you are; one of our difficulties is that often we don’t like what we see. The distortion comes when we try to modify what we see for some thing that would be more acceptable. Usually this attempt to modifier is the result of some thing that we have seen, like, (pass), identification with some one else, all of that motivated by fear. So the action of seeing our own distortion/conditioning, could very well be awareness? Being aware will not necessary going to modified our comportment but the simple fact of this seeing , may make this distortion more manageable.

This is the value of all that conditioning, so that I can say I exist, recognizing my own refection troughs awareness. Seeing my conditioning troughs those lens seem to put a new light on conditioning

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Thu, 12 Jul 2012 #603
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Does it mean to say that we could have awareness only as an accmulated memory,

One of the raisons why we know or recognize awareness is because at some point in our life we have stood back and actually saw/observed our self. At that point it was clear that there was consciousness and awareness. That experience was showing us that there was a other space within our mind. It is only later on, troughs reading K or other that we discover that space has awareness. Our human experience is showing us that to be aware we need first to be conscious that we exist. To say that there is no awareness
without consciousness is of course speculation , this universe could be a big state of awareness, we don’t know.Don't we only know awareness because of consciousness?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

This post was last updated by jean-m girard Thu, 12 Jul 2012.

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Thu, 12 Jul 2012 #604
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

lidlo lady wrote:
The organism can be aware and unconscious.

Like when I wake up in the morning, thinking that I have not slept?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Thu, 12 Jul 2012 #605
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
The human mind is unstable when it is in the'now',it is a condition of the brain,but it can not be absolute.

Because the now is unknown?

it is a condition of the brain, but it can not be absolute.???

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Fri, 13 Jul 2012 #606
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

K state in one of his book that we can only know our conditioning indirectly, meaning
troughs the conflict that it create or in relation with some thing else, otherwise we would only have a blurred or abstract idea of it. Also that conditioning is also attachment.

K question is: with no attachment in our own life, would there be conditioning?

So I am looking at the most conflicting area of my life and I can see within those conflicts, attachment to a dream, a pleasure and an idea. My brain keep thinking to some new way to approach this difficulty and has never consider looking into the attachments that create the conflict in the first place, almost like the brain is conditioning to protect my pleasure, it keep us in a state of illusion. I am starting to consider that if we begin to deal with the attachment behind a conflict, we are beginning to face the fact of our conditioning/confict .
To actually try to resolve a difficulty in our life without looking at the pleasure or attachment behind the conflict, is to live in illusion.

K question is: with no attachment in our own life, would there be conditioning?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

This post was last updated by jean-m girard Fri, 13 Jul 2012.

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Sat, 14 Jul 2012 #607
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
So I am looking at the most conflicting area of my life and I can see within those conflicts, attachment to a dream, a pleasure and an idea. My brain keep thinking to some new way to approach this difficulty and has never consider looking into the attachments that create the conflict in the first place, almost like the brain is conditioning to protect my pleasure, it keep us in a state of illusion

Yes,it is that way.It is the inconvenient state of mind which makes the 'self' to start reacting vehamently.Invaraibly
it is due to the clash of interests conflict arises.Unless one pays attention to one's reactions,and thought process, there is little chance that one could come to know that one is conditioned.It is sensate values like the attachment which force the mind to resort to a habit which becomes a condition of the brain/mind.

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sat, 14 Jul 2012.

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Sat, 14 Jul 2012 #608
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
it is a condition of the brain, but it can not be absolute.???

Individual can have the capacity to discern.That can reverse the process of conditioning.That would not happen if process of conditioning is irreversible .The question is :does the discerning ablity become much more prominent than actually it appears?

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sat, 14 Jul 2012.

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #609
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

We know that the brain sustains on the physical energy supplied by the live organic body, of which it is part of it.In material world we know how physical objects which work intelligently,the intelligence is supplied to it by humans.That puts our brain's capablity in different footing.All physical energies have thier sourceses rooted in material stuff.All these physical energies given to objects require intelligence to be supplied from humans.The humans/animals have live organic bodies which distinghushes them from materail bodies which are supplied intelligence by humans.Basically the chemical composition of the both have thier moorings in material stuff.Is that to say that the live organic bodies have energy which accounts for intelligence, whose anchor is not in the materail world?

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #610
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

That means , what stuff the cognition is made up of?

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Sat, 21 Jul 2012 #611
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

One needs to ask oneself if one really needs a rebirth?

This has no connection to above posts, but a reflection of the quote of 21-07-2012.

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Sun, 22 Jul 2012 #612
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Basically the chemical composition of the both have thier moorings in material stuff.Is that to say that the live organic bodies have energy which accounts for intelligence, whose anchor is not in the materail world?

With all the new particle that the science keep discovering it is difficult to say where the materiel world begin or finish. Intelligence or live organic body, in my view could very well be the capacity for the physical reality to interact, communicate, integrate, and amalgamate which is at every level of live. It is difficult to separate intelligence from live organic body isn’t it?

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

This post was last updated by jean-m girard Sun, 22 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 22 Jul 2012 #613
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
It is difficult to separate intelligence from live organic body isn’t it?

Why should it(intelligence) be sepatated from live organic bodies?Question is: why is it restricted to only to species/ live organic materials?As you pointed out it could open up in due course.That implies there is time factor or evolution?For discovery of such an eventuality the time factor may be inevitable,but the psychological time to crop up among the non organic bodies( do we have to include living non organic bodies?) to decide that there is intelligence among them ,would be false if the spritual trueth is what is important.Question is: is it necessary that we recognise/cognise such species only when psychological time is explicit in such bodies?Is that really necessary?or Is psychological time is really an hindarance to reality?

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sun, 22 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 22 Jul 2012 #614
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Hai! Dan, very nice to see back on the forum.

When pain is there,one likes to be out of it by seeking some thing which makes one forget the pain, an escape.To escape one always seeks something possibly pleasure.Does it(pain) imply that it is seeking?

one always seeks pleasure, and it is a dual.It results in pain.Therefore does it imply that seeking is pain?

Question is:Is, seeking implied pain and pain implied seeking?Then your equality sign holds good, otherwise It is not.The individual has to answer himself/herself.

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Sun, 22 Jul 2012 #615
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Hai! Dan, very nice to see back on the forum..

hi, thanks and nice to talk to you...
I deleted the post you mention which only said "seeking = pain"......

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Question is:Is, seeking implied pain and pain implied seeking?Then your equality sign holds good, otherwise It is not.The individual has to answer himself/herself.

Yes this is a catch 22 , I say "a" instead of the "the"(catch22) as there may be more catch 22. It is a bit like entering into the tumble dryer and never find the way out....so seeking = pain=seeking = pain = seeking.....

Even if this is true it is relatively not so important as such as the truth which may be in that , absolutely needs to be personally "seen" beyond the intellect and words so non analytically, what is important seems to rather be able to live what disturbs "me" as it is ...if there is any unconscious secret desire to achieve , reach some "goodness" of any kind and if this unconscious is not revealed , I say that "I" is therefore in a catch 22 ,because as I have seen that myself , this unconscious is much more powerful than the superficial so called self,especially since it is "acting" under cover so hidden.....so on one hand out of pain , or what I name as pain , I seek an analytical way out of it , but on the other hand the reason why there is pain is not seen as it is hidden.....pain is a link between superficiality and unconscious......it is more complex but the general idea is there.....the superficial self is useless when it comes to the disturbance of life,totally useless, yet we/I use it only...the tumble dryer syndrome...

cheers arjunarao...

DAN.....

This post was last updated by Daniel pol (account deleted) Sun, 22 Jul 2012.

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Sun, 22 Jul 2012 #616
Thumb_417412_234781426642305_395805484_n jean-m girard Canada 93 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Question is: why is it restricted to only to species/ live organic materials?

Intelligence is always the resulted of a relation between two things which has the capacity of interaction? You have to be alive to interact.

The dead can be put into words but the living cannot. Every word used to communicate about the living is the denial of the living.

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Mon, 23 Jul 2012 #617
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

jean-m girard wrote:
Intelligence is always the resulted of a relation between two things which has the capacity of interaction? You have to be alive to interact.

Is the necessary condition for entities to have intelligence , that they must be capable of interact ing with its like species?Sounds reasonable.

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Mon, 23 Jul 2012 #618
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel pol wrote:
I say that "I" is therefore in a catch 22 ,because as I have seen that myself ,

True.

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Mon, 23 Jul 2012 #619
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Few fundamental questions regarding discernment.

1) Does not interactions of species require process of cognition?

2)Is the process of cognition is the starting point of process of want/ignorance?

3) Is process of cognition of the species is independent of intelligence?

4)Does various process of survival of species which are inherent in its system, along with processs of cognition,leads up to the intelligence?

5)Does the discerning of the entire processes of the system of species gives way to intelligence?

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Mon, 23 Jul 2012 #620
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Few fundamental questions regarding discernment.

good morning arjunarao

when the house "I" live in is built(body-mind)) , there is no need to go back to "how was it built" as I have not a single thing to do with that, how does this work , unless there is a dramatical problem to fix or out of curiosity as a matter of interest, remains the fact that the house is built, is there and its purpose is to live in it...
I must live in the house .But I forget the purpose of it and If I stay in only one room of the house which contains many of them , any of them for a different purpose , and see only that one room I keep living in and nothing else, the house looks small ,useless as the purpose of the house is lost and I may dream of something else or bigger, different as I do not feel comfortable in this room because on the top of that the shutters are closed , it is quite dark, I see very little light through the shutters ,I feel in fear ,hope for better but......do nothing......

I think I am going to do this or that, but in reality do nothing......

DAN.....

This post was last updated by Daniel pol (account deleted) Mon, 23 Jul 2012.

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Mon, 23 Jul 2012 #621
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel pol wrote:
But I forget the purpose of it and If I stay in only one room of the house which contains many of them , any of them for a different purpose , and see only that one room I keep living in and nothing else, the house looks small ,useless as the purpose of the house is lost and I may dream of something else or bigger, different as I do not feel comfortable in this room because on the top of that the shutters are closed , it is quite dark, I see very little light through the shutters ,I feel in fear ,hope for better but......do nothing......

Does not this require ability to discern?I just put a question for little more elaboration.Infact your posting seems suggest the same.

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Mon, 23 Jul 2012 #622
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Does not this require ability to discern?

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
I just put a question for little more elaboration.In fact your posting seems suggest the same.

Yes it does suggest the same, suggest is the right word .

Anyone may have this "talent " to discern ,whatever are his/her analytical capacities, but the fact to live in only one room , too small ,too dark , too crowded, even too smelly , and so on because "I" is terrified ,what is giving its taste to all thinking or eventual doing come from my way to deal with this fear ....all actions or thinking come from that fear ,a word which says too little for me , as I much prefer running away , for me fear = running away.....

there will not be discernment in running away or at least too little to bring "something"...I think we all see that ,but again what to do..k unfortunately locked this topic, this question , for me as I do not listen to him I do ask this question in due time...

DAN.....

This post was last updated by Daniel pol (account deleted) Mon, 23 Jul 2012.

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Mon, 23 Jul 2012 #623
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel pol wrote:
Anyone may have this "talent " to discern ,whatever are his/her analytical capacities,

What is the distinction you make between analytical capacity and discernment? K seems to give lot of importance to discernment.

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This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Mon, 23 Jul 2012.

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Mon, 23 Jul 2012 #624
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:

Daniel pol wrote:
Anyone may have this "talent " to discern ,whatever are his/her analytical capacities,

What is the distinction you make between analytical capacity and discernment? K seems to give lot of importance to discernment.

k says this: There can be right action only when there is the comprehension of the whole process of the "I", which is but the process of ignorance. As long as there is not the discernment of the process of consciousness, of this vast complex of ignorance, memories, wants, tendencies, conflicts, the mere imitation of conduct cannot possibly bring about intelligent and harmonious order in the world, and happiness to man.

Therefore discernment seems to just be the capacity to see "what consciousness is" here in this example, and/or facts for what they are .
It is just another way to always go back to the very same subject.....as k says what is versus what should be and the understanding of all that which seems to be so impossible and so remains a hope, a goal , a dream so an escape again an escape .
Put differently it is the impossible refusal that "I" am going to die...I cannot refuse it yet I do it....and rick says bingo !

For me in what I personally "discern" when I do not take any disturbance into account in order to simply just let them be so not interfering with them ,what I discern is more discontentment, more sorrow and all of that...
If I am not "discerning" but analysing ,trying to modify "what is" so fighting with what cannot be modified...like death.....I am back to the dark room of the analytical mind which is empty of goodness but full of concepts ,plans...then in this darkness I discern one thing to do: play by ear with disturbances when they are there as a first "doing", which means that to be disturbed is meant to happen ,I have to learn what to do with it..

All what is wrong creates disturbance so pain...I am afraid there may be nothing else for us but to "be" the disturbance which seems to have healing properties , capacity to watch facts as they are and gods know what more..

I see the will to keep avoiding to be disturbed....in this corner not a thing in goodness happens.This has to be "discerned"....another word for intelligence ...

But words are so....versatile ...!!!:-(

Can I simply discern that I am illusory trying to change the planet (as it needs to be different of course) , but can I discern that by doing that "I" put itself in the position of the one who knows then expand itself to force others ...then all have to bow before one "I", so do not have their own existence as such , which is precisely what leads the earth to havoc ,my opinion versus your opinion and again "I" is only concerned with running away from suffering......

there may be no changing the planet at all as a direct approach, but only the changing myself as the only option...then k would be totally right...this is brought by discernment is not it ? I must be concerned with myself , if at war with me the world will be war, if at peace the world will be peace....the personal is what make the global ....

But these " good" (?) words are not good enough as what am I to do with my own pain which is driving me mad insane so the society remains ..

DAN.....

This post was last updated by Daniel pol (account deleted) Mon, 23 Jul 2012.

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Mon, 23 Jul 2012 #625
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Very nice posting #624,Dan.We shall get to it critically in due course.Thanks.

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #626
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Is cognizance a fragmentation of intelligence? Does discernment ultimately end this divison?

Is this simply an intellectual activity?

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #627
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Is cognizance a fragmentation of intelligence? Does discernment ultimately end this division?

I do not know for the first question, I may analyse that and logically guess but the fact is that I do not know.I do not go that way any more,well this analytical "fragment"( thanks K) works that way, as I really know now how "dry" it is, well I am not really listening to my own bullshit..yet , it still is the global leader of the whole brain....but something is "happening" ,slowly happening.

for the second question I do not really know either , the matter is not to end division in what I am concerned , it is to understand by leaving any disturbance felt( fear of something,heaviness,so called pain, sorrow, and all of it....) alone so leaving them penetrate and finish up to disturb "me-analytical" more;

I do not know where it leads , if it leads somewhere , if it is right to "do" that, but so far as a matter of experience and facts it has clearly brought into my own life, a radical solution to problems by deeply seeing them to the core in the unconscious( as so far most problems were in fact hidden from this poor analytical self), or just by them being exposed to the light of the "whole mind" if I can say that. This bring instant deep relief,some Goodness, understanding and so on, it all seem to happen on "its own" without "doing" something.
It has clearly shown some unconscious and another "process" so set up too like the analytical , but set up differently to see "what is" to use k terminology. It works on its own ,without the consent of the analytical me....and so on....describing more is useless , it has to be lived..

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Is this simply an intellectual activity?

again I do not know...the overall "idea" of that is to learn how to solve all problems because they give a sour ,bitter and painful taste to life.

What I am up to ,which I try to put in words here for me and eventual sharing if it is interesting , is not to seek analytical and logical explanations at all, for me I am finished with that, yet as I said the analytical self keeps doing that all the time as it is set up this way.
but even this analytical really start doubting itself more and more now and I can observe that now, it is very much more critical than blind to its believes than before...

It seems more an intellectual activity than anything else , unless when these disturbances are really left alone, then enters something different into the picture...different like what ? like this "other capacity " of the brain-mind which knows to see all about problems, for me it is the K's choiceless awareness in action,which is not of the analytical....but the describing will bring little as the matter is to be entirely.....disturbed and for once stay with it , with this little spark of intelligence from the analytical which is fed up to try to resist and admits its failure as any of its doing has strictly brought nothing in terms of goodness...and can see that it is slowly but surely drowning into more pain.....unless it blows more fuses to try to keep all under its illusory control..or commit suicide and so on....

it seems that I am saying that the self lack of discernment....and that it is more a matter of using another or others capacities than changing the self...

So far in my own perception to be disturbed is a natural fact ,part of our lives , it is there to be used in a proper manner to force this analytical to shut up when it has to , this becomes possible if I once realised that analysing (I want) = pain.....but such a realisation cannot be intellectual only , if only intellectual it brings nothing ,as useless as a drawing on a shit of paper to solve my pain...or as good as a cooking book to solve starvation...

in fact to be disturbed and knowing all about that "function" is part of human life as breathing good air is , this is "for me" not an opinion but a fact.

DAN.....

This post was last updated by Daniel pol (account deleted) Tue, 24 Jul 2012.

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #628
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Daniel pol wrote:
I do not go that way any more,well this analytical "fragment"( thanks K) works that way, as I really know now how "dry" it is,

Keeping JK apart,do we really distinghues between (self-knowing) cognizance and intelligence, Dan?I think we do, but take cunning for intelligence.Is there a problem in understanding the intelligence?Are we really ignorant of self-knowing?We don't accept that.Is thought a scape goat? or the main culprit is 'me'?

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #629
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

The manupulation of thoughts for an advantage over some bodyelse,we take it as intelligence.But that is cunning.

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Tue, 24 Jul 2012 #630
Thumb_stringio Daniel pol France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Keeping JK apart,

hello again, I do leave k apart, here and usually I just mention what is my own experience ,and if not I mention the source. I was using his word "fragment" as for me it precisely says what I wanted to say.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
,do we really distinguishes between (self-knowing) cognizance and intelligence, Dan? I think we do, but take cunning for intelligence..

this word intelligence is a problem for me , like love , heart and those sort of word...can I leave it apart for now ? thanks !! Agree that what we usually mean by intelligence is cunning ,winning,cheating, and all of it...
Remain these "vague" special moments when I/we know that something totally different is happening....may be this word of intelligence fits here...

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Is there a problem in understanding the intelligence?

right now I do not know.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Are we really ignorant of self-knowing?

this is my impression yes.For me there is the need of "something else" which is not the analytical self to reveal it.
Only the faulty self as in an adult brain-mind , in my view , can force the self to reveal its real consequences, so it has to be wrong ,so it brings from light to unbearable disturbances then we may or not at all "do" something about it.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Is thought a scape goat? or the main culprit is 'me'?

Again, without being overload by the disturbance which is there, I do not see possible to understand all that, this is what says what I myself live....to "see" all that and more comes into being by first of all living the disturbance alive and never touch it.....the cunning analytical mind can really creates a quite perfect illusion of understanding , for some reasons I do not understand, the action of the analytical does not work in some fields like sorrow....

It can create a deep strong interest in philosophy or subjects of that kind , keeping itself busy in its own ways , but remains incapable to solve deep insane problems. This is where to know about the outer is necessary as in time of deep doubt when you are aware of the outer you immediately knows than man's global attitude towards life and others is positively wrong, so it helps to keep at going into this understanding , which no one including k's word is going to do for me , because the personal level is not illusory at all , it is part of a global picture yes but is personal too...

DAN.....

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