Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Dvaita (Duality) is not wrong


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Fri, 09 Sep 2011 #91
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
It carries the tone , that JK is opposite, but he is not.No.

gb sir, kindly elaborate.

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Fri, 09 Sep 2011 #92
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Both are poles apart

It may imply JK's is opposite of materialistic view, where as he is holistic is what I meant.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 09 Sep 2011 #93
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
Paul Davidson wrote:

I retire.
This altar is the farthest end of earth;

I just wanted to say you finished greatly.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Fri, 09 Sep 2011 #94
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Muad dheeb wrote:
we don't see and feel the other

Hi Dan, Yes a part of it! The thing is even in person image making seems to distort hearing or seeing ? In either case it seems we automatically project our conditioned[memory..experience..] onto the present moment?:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Fri, 09 Sep 2011 #95
Thumb_deleted_user_med Muad dhib Ireland 175 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

RICK LEIN wrote:

Muad dheeb wrote:
we don't see and feel the other

Hi Dan, Yes a part of it! The thing is even in person image making seems to distort hearing or seeing ? In either case it seems we automatically project our conditioned[memory..experience..] onto the present moment?:)

Hi rick, yes right . I see it too.
You may have noticed ::)) that here like on artofinquiry when I was in the group I mainly but not only write about sorrow as a symptom-catalyst , one of its effect is precisely , somehow , to give the capacity to let these images making you mention or conclusions , do whatever they are up too , and to by pass their very strong influence so leadership for some time ,without having to think or analyse at all...

In very short so will be too vague I say this : ..for once if I find my way to be the sorrow, not in sorrow but the sorrow, then it is free to act as it wishes( it usually never happens in a all life) ,and sorrow has more "energy" than the inertia of the self which is still at work but then sorrow, free to act shows not only the subject of the pain, but how was and what has created that pain...so far it is always a goal , a desire , a craving to reach .

But it is not the end of it as it shows more , it travels back to the ultimate origin of all that mess then now arise why have I goals where do they come from ? what is behind.(all this involuntarily )
I want food is different than I want the world at my feet, but it is too early to go into more details now , so I keep asking why have I goals ?..I am not searching explanations but sorrow is still turned on and free to act, or much better what lies behind it keeps free to be working.

I may be shown that those goals are quite hidden from my normal superficial consciousness ,I may be shown that they are very much alive and willing to reach their aim , all this is freeing the mind from the related problems ,which by side effect may give a general understanding too...like what for example ?

The journey back may not be finished yet ? quick a shower...:)
I am back on the track -back !(not sure it means something?)

It is like frodo going back to Mount doom ,the exact same.
Where was I ? yes I may get a general understanding of the process of desires, goals, I may see the fact that many are hidden ,the fact that they are very much alive but I was totally unaware of it...All that shows the not conscious level self cannot see , and all of a sudden I get the last information on this flash of understanding which is : by reaction to what I reject , which mean by reaction to a problem I tried to put it aside by doing nothing so I leave the problem and am only concern with a solution ,which creates a goal to reach, which can be very much hidden. Not finished yet , as I may discover that the hidden goal in question may not be far from bottom of this journey back so could be the real motive hidden behind my global state of mind...if achieved another one goal will be needed , if not achieved I am lost because I don't understand...

All this may be our fly away from too many facts , which by side effects create my own world which I use therefore as a substitute of "what is".

So growing my veg and get my shelter nice in order to survive with art as the main motive is entirely different than whatever I am up to when the first main motive is to run away from what I call problems..again it is simply what should be at war versus what is...

RICK LEIN wrote:
In either case it seems we automatically project our conditioned[memory..experience..] onto the present moment?:)

I find what you say here right...this is why something is needed to by pass this powerful self program...
I talk about it in my ways through my own experimentation which may or not speak, anything which may work is more than welcome of course...

Shall I put the kettle on ? a movie ref to the little murders in "keeping mum" with Rowan Atkinson..have you seen that one? They have no common morality so I like it.
ps: help !I lost the tittle of the movie with peter sellers you mentioned!!

Dan.....

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Fri, 09 Sep 2011 #96
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Muad dheeb wrote:
s: help !I lost the tittle of the movie with peter sellers you mentioned!!

Hi Dan...the name of the movie[I think?] was Being..or being there? Made maybe in the 80's?:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Fri, 09 Sep 2011 #97
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Paul Davidson wrote:

>Now, we can look at thought/time. Is it a continuum?

I was originally trying to see if continuem is something similar to time and thought coming to end when particular mind coming to end when the self gets disolved.I undestand from your reply that that may not possible.Thanks.

nothing

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Fri, 09 Sep 2011 #98
Thumb_stringio Paul Davidson United Kingdom 3659 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
Thanks.

My pleasure, Kamarajugadda. In the end, like duality, it is only a mathematical image. But I think it points well to the actual. Then, dump the image!

"The ego is first and foremost a body ego." S. Freud

This post was last updated by Paul Davidson (account deleted) Fri, 09 Sep 2011.

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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #99
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
All types of pain( dukhas) are due to Dvaita roughly translated as Duality.

But Dvaita is not wrong.Simply it It could not be otherwsie.

Dvaita is wrong!

Duality results in degradation of the mind and matter. Duality has to be dissolved and not resisted. That's why "K" repeatedly stressed the need for the "Order". It is a choice one has to make(To live harmoniously within and without)

Regards
Sunyata

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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #100
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

sunyata sunyata wrote:
Duality has to be dissolved and not resisted.

Please explain?

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #101
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

sunyata sunyata wrote:
K" repeatedly stressed the need for the "Order". It is a choice one has to make(To live harmoniously within and without)

What does "Choice" have to do with the ending of conflict?:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #102
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

sunyata sunyata wrote:
Dvaita is wrong!

My question. ( this is a question from a simpleton)

If there is the 'Ground' as k speaks of in which everything goes into as well arises from, this Dvaita also arose from that Ground itself. Then how is it wrong?

(Since you are an indian, i have used the word Dvaita and not Duality.)

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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #103
Thumb_stringio RICK LEIN United States 4436 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ravi Seth wrote:
My question. ( this is a question from a simpleton)

Wah,,,!:)

THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE

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Sat, 10 Sep 2011 #104
Thumb_man_question_mark dhirendra singh India 2984 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
If there is the 'Ground' as k speaks of in which everything goes into as well arises from, this Dvaita also arose from that Ground itself. Then how is it wrong

I have an illusion, that 'illusion' (reason of dvaita) is part of ground.(Maya and Braham are two aspects of 'being'/ground)

I don't know

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Mon, 12 Sep 2011 #105
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
If there is the 'Ground' as k speaks of in which everything goes into as well arises from, this Dvaita also arose from that Ground itself. Then how is it wrong?

This is what Madhwa says.
This Dvaita also arose from that Ground itself, if it is of the same quality as that of the ground , it may not be wrong.

Otherwise we can say if creation is real, the one created by it also real.

gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

This post was last updated by ganesan balachandran Mon, 12 Sep 2011.

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Mon, 12 Sep 2011 #106
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
Maya

There is no Maya.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Mon, 12 Sep 2011 #107
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
is that the ground JK spoke?

i can only imagine with the help of thought or logic at my disposal and that may be absolutely wrong provided some body else says something otherwise and corrects me.

gb, kindly say something about the 'Ground' as you see it or understand it as per 'k or even otherwise.

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Mon, 12 Sep 2011 #108
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
even otherwise.

Sure. there is difference i felt. I will elaborate.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Mon, 12 Sep 2011 #109
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

dhirendra singh wrote:
reason of dvaita

need not be due to dvaita.

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #110
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Duality is not wrong.

Does it mean it is true?

And could it not give contridictory results?

There is pleasure in following it, most of the markets thrive on it.It is full of pit falls where our interests are at stake.
Following it most dull minds can sudenly become very active.Every thing is happy, till duality throws up a false.Hence the suffering.One needs to understand its nature.Out of it a dualist expects a joy.If the understaning is real understanding then dualist is in for unexpected.It could as well be a non-duality.one always must expect the most unexpected.That is the power of true undestanding.It is enough if dualist undestands himself.

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Thu, 15 Sep 2011.

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #111
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

ravi seth wrote:
Duality is not wrong.

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote

Does it mean it is true?

And could it not give contridictory results?

There is pleasure in following it, most of the markets thrive on it.It is full of pit falls where our interests are at stake.
Following it most dull minds can sudenly become very active.Every thing is happy, till duality throws up a false.Hence the suffering.One needs to understand its nature.Out of it a dualist expects a joy.If the understaning is real understanding then dualist is in for unexpected.It could as well be a non-duality.one always must expect the most unexpected.That is the power of true undestanding.It is enough if dualist undestands himself.

It is a fact which is true.

It gives contradictory results since it is Dvaita.It throws choices. It creates the 'self'.It allows the self to choose.Both freedom as well all the responsibility is on you--- the self.It is given an oppurtunity to become the God and go beyond.You are to decide where you want to go .Without it you will not be here exchanging notes on this forum.Without it you will never know 'what the Ground is'.This is a necessary state to have confidence and expression.

Since it is Dvaita, it has its attractions and repulsions.That which creates attraction in your mind is you and which creates repulsion is again you.The one who is choosing is you.The one who is not choosing is again you.You die you take birth.

In short this is the understanding you are.

See clearly what this state of Dvaita is.Know it fully well.Know its poisons & its nectare. Only when you know it fully well, you will go beyond, otherwise not.

It is the first hand contact of the 'absolute' with itself.

Bow before him who sees Saguna Brahman an Nirguna Brahman as one.

This post was last updated by Ravi Seth Thu, 15 Sep 2011.

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #112
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 1989 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
Bow before him who sees Saguna Brahman an Nirguna Brahman as one.

Why? - This is first question, Ravi.

Second one is - How is one to recognise as to who is the enlightened one and who is simply saying things like - " See clearly what this state of Dvaita is.Know it fully well.Know its poisons & its nectare. Only when you know it fully well, you will go beyond, otherwise not.
It is the first hand contact of the 'absolute' with itself."
from memory?

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Thu, 15 Sep 2011 #113
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
Bow before him who sees Saguna Brahman an Nirguna Brahman as one.

That is really a tough job.

nothing

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Fri, 16 Sep 2011 #114
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
Ravi Seth wrote:

Bow before him who sees Saguna Brahman an Nirguna Brahman as one.
Why? - This is first question, Ravi.

When all the choices you have finish you can't do nothing than to bow before him who takes away all the choices.

Second one is - How is one to recognise as to who is the enlightened one and who is simply saying things like - " See clearly what this state of Dvaita is.Know it fully well.Know its poisons & its nectare. Only when you know it fully well, you will go beyond, otherwise not.
It is the first hand contact of the 'absolute' with itself."
from memory?

Why any need to have guarantees? Guru ki karni guru jaye ga chele ki karni chela. ( the teacher shall reap what he bows and the pupil will reap his own)

And the greatest Guru is the sadguru within who maifests in outer form and guides.

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Fri, 16 Sep 2011 #115
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
It gives contradictory results since it is Dvaita.It throws choices. It creates the 'self'.It allows the self to choose.Both freedom as well all the responsibility is on you--- the self.It is given an oppurtunity to become the God and go beyond.You are to decide where you want to go .Without it you will not be here exchanging notes on this forum.Without it you will never know 'what the Ground is'.This is a necessary state to have confidence and expression.

It appears that it is not important one follows the dvaita or advaita, in either case you have to start from the known area called the self, undestand it completely.In either case one needs to deal with the thought.So it boiles done to the trueth of the thought.As both the D's or Ad's must keep the track of the duals( threesome:thought,self,and time) to aviod the pit falls in their affairs.It just amounts to say that one needs to have the self knowldge from moment to moment.Then it really does not matter what one follows. Both can live in peace.

nothing

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Fri, 16 Sep 2011 #116
Thumb_avatar sunyata sunyata India 86 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
If there is the 'Ground' as k speaks of in which everything goes into as well arises from, this Dvaita also arose from that Ground itself. Then how is it wrong?

(Since you are an indian, i have used the word Dvaita and not Duality.)

Mr Ravi,
As you know, duality means that one says one thing and does the other thing. For example, people in India are very religious outwardly but in reality (inwardly) they are very "corrupt". This duality has to be dissolved. It means one has to accept and declare that one is caught in duality. It is the beginning of dissolution. There sets in "Order".
Regards
Sunyata

This post was last updated by sunyata sunyata Fri, 16 Sep 2011.

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Sat, 17 Sep 2011 #117
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
That is really a tough job.

just bow.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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Sat, 17 Sep 2011 #118
Thumb_rao kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao India 903 posts in this forum Offline

ganesan balachandran wrote:
kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao wrote:
That is really a tough job.

just bow.

Is there anything that one can do ?

nothing

This post was last updated by kamarajugadda Mallik ArjunaRao Sat, 17 Sep 2011.

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Sat, 17 Sep 2011 #119
Thumb_avatar Ravi Seth India 1573 posts in this forum Offline

sunyata sunyata wrote:
As you know, duality means that one says one thing and does the other thing. For example, people in India are very religious outwardly but in reality (inwardly) they are very "corrupt". This duality has to be dissolved. It means one has to accept and declare that one is caught in duality. It is the beginning of dissolution. There sets in "Order".

Duality is the attributes i.e. negative & positives of Dvaita.That is how Dvaita catches you in which you as an individual or self or psychological thought are created.

There are no fruitful results if you just want to avoid corruption and bring in an honest regime.You simply cannot as they are the two sides of the same coin.You have to understand the Dvaita overall to be free of its attributes or in short of this 'self'.

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Sat, 17 Sep 2011 #120
Thumb_tampura ganesan balachandran India 2204 posts in this forum Offline

Ravi Seth wrote:
'Ground' as k speaks of in which everything goes into as well arises from,

As far as i understood the man who has touched the ground, don't know any of this.
gb

We are watching, not waiting, not expecting anything to happen but watching without end. JK

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