Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
Serious Debate | moderated by Drakanthus Drakanthus

The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Closed_forum

Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 72 in total
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #1
Thumb_avatar Terrence Webster-Doyle United States 14 posts in this forum Offline

I am a former Director of the Oak Grove School. I was personally asked by Krishnamurti to do so in 1984. I had written him a letter saying that I was not, in all due respect, interested in him, but rather in understanding conditioning, which I realized could be seen by anyone that cared to look. (I had been seriously interested in understanding conditioning since 1969 when I first heard someone read a passage by Krishnamurti)
I left the school shortly after taking over as Head Master mainly because I realized that the school when joining WASC (the Wester Association of School and Colleges) would have to conform to high conventional academic standards and therefore the students would have little or no time to have an education that fully explored K's insights into education.
I have been in contact with the school lately and I am quite dismayed that they are still mainly concerned with being a conventional prep school. The only class being taught that they feel is educating their students to what Krishnamurti is saying is for seniors on "philosophic and religious world views including Krishnamurt." To me this is in total contradiction to what Krishnamurti was saying. The school original intent was to "understand conditioning" and when this more conventional approach was chosen I felt that there was a loss of that intent.
I have for years tried to create resources for teachers and young people that help to understand conditioning in a practical and relevant format. I am interested in starting a school that really teaches the insights into conditioned thinking. My other desire is to start a Krishnamurti Teacher Training College so teachers can be properly trained to educate young people about conditioning. I look forward to meeting others who would care to dialog about these possibilities.

Peace will forever remain an ideal until the roots of conflict are understood

Back to Top
Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #2
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Terrence Webster-Doyle wrote:
The school original intent was to "understand conditioning" and when this more conventional approach was chosen I felt that there was a loss of that intent.

Hello Terrence,

Do you feel the goal or the ideal is to "understand conditioning", or as K did, to go deeply into it and then rise fully above and beyond it? And do you feel that everyone is capable of doing the latter? Are you, yourself, understanding of and fully free of conditioning?

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Fri, 04 Sep 2009.

Back to Top
Tue, 16 Jun 2009 #3
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Terrence Webster-Doyle wrote:
I have for years tried to create resources for teachers and young people that help to understand conditioning in a practical and relevant format. I am interested in starting a school that really teaches the insights into conditioned thinking. My other desire is to start a Krishnamurti Teacher Training College so teachers can be properly trained to educate young people about conditioning.

I wonder too here Terrence why you wouldn't start your own school. One that would be totally free and independant of any and all others. One that would be pure and pristine from the start and would remain that way if its leadership was right.

I think here of the following inspiring line of Radha Burnier, who was a friend of Krishnamurti:

" No government or well established organization has ever made a radical departure from an existing pattern. The springs of a new life are always from the heart of the solitary man, who knows how to dream and dares to act."

Along with the following line of William Blake: "I must create my own system or be enslaved by another man's."

Good luck,

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 16 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Tue, 16 Jun 2009 #4
Thumb_stringio nick carter United States 4 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"Mearly"?

Back to Top
Wed, 17 Jun 2009 #5
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Hello Terrence,
I think, I am able to understand your views, for having gone through the similar ordeal. In the beginning, I too was of the view that 'wisdom' or 'freedom' could be taught or attained intellectually! Over the years, I realized that it is a characteristic of the consciousness and it could only be retained or protected and lastly 'could only be regained through mutation'.
I appreciate your drive in this matter and hope to continue our dialogue, after you go through my profile.
With regards,
Love

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Back to Top
Wed, 17 Jun 2009 #6
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:

Hello Terrence,
I think, I am able to understand your views, for having gone through the similar ordeal. In the beginning, I too was of the view that 'wisdom' or 'freedom' could be taught or attained intellectually! Over the years, I realized that it is a characteristic of the consciousness and it could only be retained or protected and lastly 'could only be regained through mutation'.
I appreciate your drive in this matter and hope to continue our dialogue, after you go through my profile.
With regards,
Love


Hi Prasanna,

I agree with your views here. However I think a school can and must be built for the sole purpose of facilitating a 'mutation' in others. That is in those few others who have the innate capacity (or a 'characteristic of the consciousness') for such a thing. Certainly 'freedom' can't be packaged and 'sold' indiscriminately to others on a wholesale basis. As K tried to do and wound up realizing he failed miserably in his original goal of "setting men absolutely, unconditionally free."

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Wed, 17 Jun 2009 #7
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
Over the years, I realized that it is a characteristic of the consciousness and it could only be retained or protected and lastly 'could only be regained through mutation'.

Have you any thoughts Prasanna on how one acquires that 'characteristic of the consciousness', or that innate capacity, as I sometimes call it, which is necessary in order for a genuine mutation to take place in a person?

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Thu, 18 Jun 2009 #8
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
that innate capacity, as I sometimes call it, which is necessary in order for a genuine mutation to take place in a person?

Yep - listen to Robert - or is it 'Michael' - he has the recipe. ;)

Back to Top
Thu, 18 Jun 2009 #9
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

Robert Michael wrote:
that innate capacity, as I sometimes call it, which is necessary in order for a genuine mutation to take place in a person?

Yep - listen to Robert - or is it 'Michael' - he has the recipe. ;)


Hi Patricia,

No, I find we really need to be still and begin to listen to that small voice within ourselves. Though the trouble is, due to generation after generation of evermore decaying and corrupt (un?)human, unloving conditioning, that very, very few of us are at all able to hear that inner voice, so great is the resulting psychic or neurological fragmentation. Krishnamurti indeed was and continues to be a very rare breed, so to speak, and he very rightly observed near the end of his days that no one understood him or lived the teachings either.

There's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that what made him what he was was the extraordinarily close and loving bond and relationship that he had with his mother. And today I can clearly see that that same essential factor was true of my early critical developmental conditioning. Whereby the seed of warm, human love was deeply planted in myself also. Only in my particular case it did not burst forth and begin to redevelop until later in life, and I think then with perhaps a great deal more suffering than K experienced in his journey of becoming the full-flame.

"Love is an extraordinary thing; without it, life is barren." (J. Krishnamurti)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Thu, 18 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Fri, 19 Jun 2009 #10
Thumb_stringio mike christani United States 8 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Bob, "There's no doubt whatsoever in my mind..."- I really think one ought to doubt that. I think there are very few things in life that one shouldn't have even a 'glimmer' of doubt about, and this is one. K's would be springing up like dandelions if the factor of his awakening was merely a close and loving bond with his mother. No offense, and I'm sure it didn't hurt him, but....!

This post was last updated by mike christani (account deleted) Fri, 19 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Fri, 19 Jun 2009 #11
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

Well stated Mike.

Back to Top
Fri, 19 Jun 2009 #12
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike christani wrote:

Bob, "There's no doubt whatsoever in my mind..."- I really think one ought to doubt that. I think there are very few things in life that one shouldn't have even a 'glimmer' of doubt about, and this is one. K's would be springing up like dandelions if the factor of his awakening was merely a close and loving bond with his mother. No offense, and I'm sure it didn't hurt him, but....!


Hi Mike,

Putting K aside, my own personal experiences, observations, and studies of others reveal the same findings. Our foundation is layed, for better or worse, in the critical formative years of our lives. And it's this alone which determines the path and the outcome of our lives.

Leadbeater saw not only a vacancy or a total unselfishness in K when he discovered him on the beach as a teenager, but he also saw and recognized a near-perfect manifestion of love in a human being. And K's life continued to unfold from there. Quite magnificiently at that.

There are of course possibilities that the seed of love may be planted by other family members or even friends, but the key to all is having been gifted with love with includes a finely-formed and sensitive neurological construct. Which K allluded to at times, though not in depth. I feel an abundance of warm and tender human touch is also very vital in our early years, along with having a secure, quiet, and happy home. Having parents that truly love themselves and one another is the greatest gift a child can have. Though such a thing is quite rare. Especially in these days.

"Truth, the real God - the real God, not the God that man has made - does not want a mind that has been destroyed, petty, shallow, narrow, limited. It needs a healthy mind to appreciate it; it needs a rich mind - rich, not with knowledge but with innocence - a mind upon which there has never been a scratch of experience, a mind that is free from time. The gods that you have invented for your own comforts accept torture; they accept a mind that is being made dull. But the real thing does not want it; it wants a total, complete human being whose heart is full,
rich, clear, capable of intense feeling, capable of seeing the beauty of a tree, the smile of a child, and the agony of a woman who has never had a full meal. You HAVE to HAVE this extraordinary feeling, this sensitivity to everything - to the animal, to the cat that walks across the wall, to the squalor, the dirt, the filth of human beings in poverty, in despair. You HAVE to be sensitive - which is to feel intensely, not in any particular direction, which is not an emotion which comes and goes, but which is to be sensitive with your nerves, with your eyes, with your body, with your ears, with your voice. You HAVE to be sensitive completely all the time. Unless you are so completely sensitive, there is no intelligence. INTELLIGENCE (God/Truth/Love?) COMES WITH SENSITIVITY AND OBSERVATION." [J. Krishnamurti - 'Book of Life' - 5/1]

"A human nurtured instead of shamed, and loved instead of driven by fear, develops a different brain and therefore a different mind. He will not act against the well-being of another nor against his larger body, the living Earth." [Joseph Chilton Pearce]

http://www.ttfuture.org/

Bob M.

(cont. later)

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Fri, 19 Jun 2009 #13
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike christani wrote:
Ks would be springing up like dandelions if the factor of his awakening was merely a close and loving bond with his mother.

(cont.)

No, this is not the case Mike. Krishnamurti was also blessed with having been discovered and supported by the Theosophists. Who I feel were quite insightful, integral, understanding, and sincere about finding and training up a World Teacher. Which, as I alluded to before, allowed K to become the full-flame, or let's say as full as he could possibly become. And without him having had this cushion, we would not be here today discussing him and the teachings. Nor would I be what I've come to be.

Today (100 years later) no such organizations or people exist anywhere who have what those early Theosophists did. As a result, potential Ks (which do exist, though they're few and far between) not only go unnoticed by virtually everyone, but also there are no longer any cushions anywhere in this dark and spiritually and morally bankrupt world to help these sensitive souls flower.

I, unlike K, had the structured support of no one in my journey and had to flower in the thick of life. As a result, it's has taken me beyond K in both understanding and experience. And I have found that even the best of those with that innate capacity for attaining love and freedom are just not capable of breaking through the universal darkness and ignorance, AND THEN continuing on to heights unlimited rather than getting sucked back into the universal darkness again. Which I see happening all around me.

Hence I feel a school is needed, where its teacher will, through total understanding of both himself and others along with the sharing of his very own personal experiences of making the return to love in all its fullness and glory, show (and help facilitate) others in a truly supporting and understanding manner and environment how to make that return themselves.

"From the moment of birth, when the stone-age baby confronts the twentieth-century mother, the baby is subjected to these forces of violence, called love,
as its mother and father have been, and their parents and their parents before them, These forces are mainly concerned with destroying most of its potentialities. This enterprise is on the whole successful." [R. D. Laing]

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Fri, 19 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Fri, 19 Jun 2009 #14
Thumb_monkey_chinese slakki zi United States 3 posts in this forum Offline

Terrence,

Given that a child is clearly developing mental representation as early as 18 months ...

Do you wish to teach teachers or children? Do you wish to start an institution, a program, or a class? Is your interest in the content or the method? And, most importantly, at what level?

Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jun 2009 #15
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
Krishnamurti was also blessed with having been discovered and supported by the Theosophists.

Also indoctrinated and conditioned by the Theosophists. How else to have such insight into indoctrination and conditioning as K had?

And K denounced all that indoctrination, and distanced himself completely from it, but only through understanding the depth of it.

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Sat, 20 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jun 2009 #16
Thumb_avatar Ron Ziv Israel 2 posts in this forum Offline

I read with great interest your opening statement. I think that the true picture is that there is no escaping from indoctrination. As soon as I am my past and I realize that my eyes can only see yesterday, I am trapped. Seeing my trap is seeing, and seeing is freedom.

You had a dream of teaching students a new way of thinking. You were dissapointed at the result. Here again, is the indoctrination of conflict, we can't escape from it, but once we are aware of it, truly aware of it...the action we take is free from indoctrination.

The great sufferer

Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jun 2009 #17
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike christani wrote:

Bob, "There's no doubt whatsoever in my mind..."- I really think one ought to doubt that. I think there are very few things in life that one shouldn't have even a 'glimmer' of doubt about, and this is one. K's would be springing up like dandelions if the factor of his awakening was merely a close and loving bond with his mother. No offense, and I'm sure it didn't hurt him, but....!


"If parents loved their children, do you know what would happen? If your parents really loved you, they would see to it that you would have no cause for fear, that you were healthy and happy human beings; they would see to it that there was no war, no poverty in the world, that society did not destroy you or anyone around you, whether the villagers, or the people in the towns, or the animals. It is because parents do not truly love their children that there are wars, that there are the rich and the poor.....If parents were really concerned about their children, society would be transformed overnight; we would have a different kind of education, different homes, a world without war.....Love brings its own creative understanding, therefore there is no resistance, no conflict; but to love with such complete integration is possible only when you feel deeply secure, completely at home, especially while you are young." (J. K. - 'Think On These Things')

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Sat, 20 Jun 2009 #18
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

Robert Michael wrote:
Krishnamurti was also blessed with having been discovered and supported by the Theosophists.

Also indoctrinated and conditioned by the Theosophists. How else to have such insight into indoctrination and conditioning as K had?

And K denounced all that indoctrination, and distanced himself completely from it, but only through understanding the depth of it.


I think I alluded to previously that that blessing was also paradoxically a curse too, Patricia. The Theosophists took care of K's needs and even more importantly were there for him with understanding when he went through his necessary and vital kundalini awakening experience, since they had some knowledge of this tradition and experience. Yet on the other hand they made life far too easy for him. As a result, he never really thoroughly understood himself or what happened to him; nor did he ever LIVE in the same shoes (or struggle and suffer through life's many trials and tribulations and experiences) as did the people he spoke to with the goal of setting them "absolutely, unconditionally free." Which was the primary reason for his failure of this "only concern" of his. Which I think he realized in the end.

So K was never really indoctrinated or conditioned by the Theosophists psychologically. Or certainly not in any way that he did not easily and fully overcome it very early on. But again he was spoiled by them, which could also be considered to have been conditioned. And the one which he never overcame.

I am too fully convinced that unless a person undergoes a revolutionary awakening experience just as K did in 1922 (whereby alone a genuine mutation or shift of the mind or brain takes place), they'll never come to know that new and wonderful state of mind, body, and spirit that he dwelled in much of the time. And I feel too that this must also be the focus of any school or organization whose purpose is the genuine spiritual liberation and total flowering of men and women.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Sat, 20 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Sun, 21 Jun 2009 #19
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Robert Michael wrote:
Have you any thoughts Prasanna on how one acquires that 'characteristic of the consciousness', or that innate capacity, as I sometimes call it, which is necessary in order for a genuine mutation to take place in a person?
Bob M.

Bob,
Acquiring of any characteristic of consciousness isn't possible before mutation. Further, Knowledge itself can't bring mutation. However when it is appropriate and when the consciousness is ready and eager for it, knowledge can help trigger the process of mutation,

Presently, human consciousness is disturbed, damaged or fragmented in the growing years of the brain. This fragmentation is consolidated and made permanent by an elders' error during that period. This is perhaps labeled as the 'wrong turn', and thereafter the 'self' begins to dominate consciousness.

The 'self' is nothing but the consciousness often driven by an exclusive image or identity, which is amalgamated by the unfinished urges or the illusion of insecurity from childhood. Anytime in adult hood, if and when consciousness attempts to perceive the same fully, the illusions of insecurity vanish completely thus ending the bonding.

Mutation is nothing but the removal of this 'amalgamation' or 'bonding' or separation of this identity. Mutation is essential, because without it, the consciousness can't become free. 'Self' only can attempt to begin the process of mutation, because it has hijacked and become the driver and conductor of this natural and dynamic movement of consciousness.

Fragmented consciousness is result of unrectified damage or unperceived hurt. Since, suspended or uncompleted perception is being perceived now, the effect of the same old pain is perceived, but now once and for all time.

By sitting quiet and merely observing only the natural functions of the body viz., breathing, heartbeat, blinking, and the basic sound in ears, the consciousness can be prepared for mutation. Sooner or later, there arises the usual restlessness and boredom, which are the unperceived or left over effects of childhood hurts. If the consciousness continues to observe the restlessness or boredom or depression without trying to justify or overcome that, then the process of mutation generally begins.

Consciousness must continue to observe even the process of mutation as long as possible. After the first episode, mutation begins to take place at different intervals and often during new and challenging situations. Then the escapist involuntary intellectual activity of thinking begins to reduce and finally ceases, which means the ending of 'self', which is motivated by illusion of insecurity. Then pure 'I' or pure consciousness is left alone, without the self.

This is my experiment and quite successful.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

This post was last updated by Prasanna P Sun, 21 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Mon, 22 Jun 2009 #20
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
Bob, Acquiring of any characteristic of consciousness isn't possible before mutation. Further, Knowledge itself can't bring mutation. However when it is appropriate and when the consciousness is ready and eager for it, knowledge can help trigger the process of mutation.

I think you misunderstood my question Prasanna. So let me put it this way. What gave you (given that you in fact have undergone a genuine mutation) the capacity to be able to undergo such a thing in the first place? Since true mutation is a very rare occurrence. And in my opinion simply because most brains are irreparably damaged by their conditioning or childhood hurts as you state, and which I wholeheartedly agree with. My view is that most of our brains are conditioned or wired or formed in such a way that they operate in a self-protective thought mode that is fully unaware or insensitive to its conditioning and wrongful method of operation. And as a result these brains are incapable of a genuine mutation, which is a return to a right or natural manner of functioning. Again given that they've been finely-formed in the first place.

I think you may have a good understanding of the mechanics of mutation and the ensuing purification of the brain and sensory system, yet I wonder how deep an understanding of it you have. I too believe you feel like Krishnamurti did that mutation can happen to everyone. Which I fully disagree with. Mutation is not a choice or an "experiment", rather it happens of itself. To those who are built for it. Though after it happens we can choose to better facilitate the process of full organismal purification. as you too seem to allude to also.

I wonder how effective you feel you are in helping others in this mutation process? Personally I don't feel I'm very effective at all, nor do I think this type of discussion will be of much if any value at all to others. Therefore I feel it's important for an awakened one to be sure to fit himself to be of maximum effectiveness in the assisting of others in coming to the necessary breakpoint, and then on to real breakthrough or mutation. Which for me means to keep my sharing or discussions with others more on a deep heartfelt and experiential level rather than on a shallow, superficial intellectual, rational, or analytical one. Which is where I feel K fell short. Especially as time went on.

Did your mutation in its initial phase especially or at anytime incapacitate you so far as carrying out your normal daily activities, as it did K, myself, and many others whose lives I've studied?

I think the deep and tragic nature of the old adage 'many are called, but few are chosen' continues to be thoroughly understood by no one, including its author.

"An unloved child has a different kind of brain than a loved child. This damage is not simply psychological. It is neurological and therefore physical. Ultimately, it's the lack of love that does us in before our time, Arthur Janov writes. He believes that early trauma causes a reduction of functioning brain synapses (connections)."

"The sensory deprivation of pleasure results in the failure of certain neural pathways to develop and develop properly. Sensory stimulation acts like a nutrient for brain growth and development. The richer the networks, the greater the connectivity and neural integration of the brain.....A rich array of sensory stimuli, of all the senses, maximizes development of the brain. If we do not get the sensory stimulation we equate with love, bonding, and intimacy during the formative period of brain development, we're going to be impaired, if not crippled, in our ability to experience and express the language of love later in life." (James Prescott)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Mon, 22 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Mon, 22 Jun 2009 #21
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Bob,
Yesterday when I was in a K group discussion, a gentleman politely began by saying that he has a question, He went on and on. Finally, some one had to interject saying, whether he is questioning or answering and to whom. Some people burst into laughter and others who were sleeping got awakened and asked what was the matter. ;-)
We have discussed a lot before and I think we need to do more. As I am hurrying up for some work, I shall pick the questions in them and answer in detail after my return. In the meanwhile, may I ask you to go through my Theory of Fragmentation of Intelligence ? Perhaps that would clear some of the coubts.
P

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Back to Top
Mon, 22 Jun 2009 #22
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Bob, my answers to your questions.

Q:What gave you (given that you in fact have undergone a genuine mutation) the capacity to be able to undergo such a thing in the first place?

A: Barring exceptions, all those with less than 49% fragmentation have the ability to get mutated, because their natural consciousness is 51% and above and hence it is dominant. They are generally rational and reasonable. If such persons pursue or practise meditation with determination, it can surely lead to the process of mutation. However, such persons are cosy and don't feel the need for mutation. The need for mutation is more for the middle class, but they are afraid to face the long phase. The highly disturbed can see neither its need nor its possibility.

Q:I too believe you feel like Krishnamurti did that mutation can happen to everyone. Which I fully disagree with.

A:I feel it may not happen to any one on its own under usual or normal circumstances. A challenging situation may suddenly trigger it in some cases. Singular determination helped me, because I had no clear idea about it. I had to do years of work before triggering that process, which my readers may do it in far less time.

Q: I wonder how effective you feel you are in helping others in this mutation process? Personally I don't feel I'm very effective at all, nor do I think this type of discussion will be of much if any value at all to others.

A: I am now putting it in writing, before beginning any such project. It is effortless to share one's true experience with others, particularly in clarifying that it is entirely harmless to just allow the natural process to take its own course.

If you say you aren't effective, it may be because you may not have allowed the process to continue till the end. I feel these discussions can be of help and go a long way in reducing the difficulties and complications that the readers may find.

Q:Did your mutation in its initial phase especially or at anytime incapacitate you so far as carrying out your normal daily activities, as it did K, myself, and many others whose lives I've studied?

A: Yes. Severe depression began long after the initial phase. Probably because, I was aware of its inevitability, I suffered far lesser than K. Now the bouts of depression come only after long intervals.

Q: "Ultimately, it's the lack of love that does us in before our time"

A: I am not very sure, what love meant to him. Leaving children on their own except while protecting from dangers, and only medical attention during their physical hurts, constitute love according to me.

Practice of meditation is necessary to trigger mutation, after which the meditation state becomes the default state of consciousness.

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

This post was last updated by Prasanna P Mon, 22 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Tue, 23 Jun 2009 #23
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
Bob, my answers to your questions.
Q:What gave you (given that you in fact have undergone a genuine mutation) the capacity to be able to undergo such a thing in the first place?

Hi Prasanna,

You still haven't answered my question: What gave YOU (given that you in fact have undergone a genuine mutation) the capacity to be able to undergo such a thing in the first place?

I have gone through your "Theory of Fragmentation of Intelligence" more than once, Prasanna. And while I find it is well-intentioned and may have some merit, I feel it will be of very little, if any, value in the transformation of man. And I'll be quick to say too that the spiritual life is not a THEORY, but rather it HAS TO BE LIVED in all its fullness and glory. Your 49 & 51 percent fragmentation idea I find wrong. And the "barring exceptions" too raises red flags here. My view is that either a brain is properly formed or it is not. Though a good brain choicelessly gets caught up in the collective brain or mind of society which is corrupt or "profounding sick", as per K. Therefore the good brain functions wrongly. Though it can return to sanity or wholeness again. Though as K once alluded, perhaps only 10% of mankind is capable of transcending the "me". I personally feel the percentage is even less than that. While also remembering again here that a genuine transcendence or mutation requires a properly or finely-formed and sensitive brain and sensory makeup. Which K also claimed more than once. He too once said that a crooked mind cannot find the truth. This seems right-on and pretty cut and dried to me, but as time went on he flip-flopped on these views. Yet who else understands this simple truth of the whole matter?

My view is that you may well have had a transformative experience, but you have not gone on to enter and dwell in the deep mystical dimension of intuitive all-knowingness and pure spiritedness. But rather you remain at the level of the intellect, reason, logic, or psychology. Which is the case with so many people who claim to be enlightened or transformed. And who are therefore of virtually of no value in the FULL and GENUINE awakening of others. So rather than living FULLY in the solution, they remain living largely in the problem. And as a result they experience not the eternal joys of living and loving. Of course along too with experiencing the deep sorrow of clearly seeing the tragic nature of the human condition.

I feel you have not experienced a complete and total death of the 'self', which K said was necessary (dying completely to the known) in order to attain that extraordinary state of being that he had attained. Your recurring bouts of depression help confirm this view. Even though they're less frequent. Which I feel results from your lack of courage to unearth and fully fathom the full truths about yourself and/or the human condition. Or might I say you haven't fully taken off your rose-colored glasses. I too have experienced periods of incapacitating depression with my awakening. Along with periods of extreme elation that too were incapacitating.

I used to fault K for being an absolutist in that either one is there or he is not. Though today I too am an absolutist myself in this regard. And like K, as reported by Susunaga Weeraperuma, I can also tell if another person lives in that state of liberation or consciousness that he did. And without seeing the person. The light clearly and intuitively recognizes another light.

K once said that in order to find out what love is - we must first find out what it is not. And this requires taking a long, hard, honest, and serious look at oneself and one's defects of character, behaviors, and actions which are not grounded in love. Which spring from a wrongly conditioned and functioning brain. However he did not keep the focus on this simple process of soul-searching, if you will. But instead he got sidetracked into the paralysis of analysis, logic, reason, and endless and fruitless diagoguing on the workings of the brain and mind, consciousness, thought, etc. Which carries over in very large part in these forums.

Meditation can't be practised, but rather it is something that comes upon a person of itself as the mind purification process goes on. And K often rightly said as much. It's a state of a brain that is in the process of purification in functioning.

I feel I'm ineffective with others because I'm not focused on reaching deeply into men's minds and hearts, which must be done if real change is to take place in them. However remembering that perhaps only 2% of the species is capable of change in the context of first undergoing a revolutionary mutation of both the mind and the heart. Which means reachable and genuinely changeable minds and heart are quite rare and hard to find. And the initial and necessary shift or mutation being of the soul-shattering nature of the one K underwent in 1922. Actually I'm seriously beginning to wonder if I'm in the right country for the awakening of some of my fellows. Whether the societal conditioning here has become so spiritually and morally bankrupt and corrupt that virtually no one is capable of genuine transformation and restoration to sanity.

Meditation had nothing to do with triggering my awakening. Rather it was suffering deeply to the point of realizing the terrifying fact that death of the organism was better than living the kind of life I was living (which was quite normal or average).

Lastly, I again post the following remark of K. And which I feel should have been the primary focus of the 'teachings'. And these forums, if they're to be of any spiritual value at all.

"Can we look at ourselves, LOOK AT THE BASIC FACT OF OURSELVES - which is GREED, ENVY, ANXIETY, FEAR, HYPOCRISY, DECEPTION, AMBITION - can we watch that, without any distortion." (J. K.)

Though rather than merely watching these things, we MUST totally eradicate these defects of character from our being. Then, and then alone, will our human spirits begin to soar to heights previously unknown or ever even dreamed of. Though again it must all begin with a deep and radical change of both mind and heart, or mutation.

Lastly, Krishnamurti enjoyed much, much solitude in his developing years especially. And so have I. And he stressed the need for solitude if one is to truly grow along spiritual lines.

"For the TOTAL DEVELOPMENT of the human being, SOLITUDE as a means of cultivating sensitivity BECOMES A NECESSITY. One has to know what it means to be alone, what it means to meditate, what it means to die; and the implications of solitude, of meditation, of death, can only be known only by seeking them out. These implications CANNOT BE TAUGHT, they must be learnt. One can indicate, but learning by what is indicated is not the experiencing of solitude or meditation. To experience what is solitude and what is meditation, one must be in a state of inquiry; only a mind that is in a state of inquiry is capable of learning." (J. K.)

My own personal experience also indicates that the total development of the human being will not take place in a person unless he steps fully out of the rat-race, at least for a time. And ideally forever.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 23 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Tue, 23 Jun 2009 #24
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Q:You still haven't answered my question: What gave YOU (given that you in fact have undergone a genuine mutation) the capacity to be able to undergo such a thing in the first place?
A: Please forgive me, Bob. I am not getting an answer, despite repeatedly scanning my memory or hard disk in my brain. The only answer I can give is that like many others, I too was running from pillar to post in search of truth or freedom. When I met K, then only I realized that I have to turn inwards, because the problem lay there within me inside.

Q:My view is that either a brain is properly formed or it is not.
A: I respect your views, even if it differs with mine or others'. Most of the people who come to me, have your views. However, my personal finding is that there is only a 'calibration error or a reading error' in perception, that is causing the whole problem. If your weighing machine is not reading properly, will you throw it away? Just do the calibration by turning the small wheel to bring the reading to zero. Thereafter it gives the correct reading.

Q:...... you have not gone on to enter and dwell in the deep mystical dimension of intuitive all-knowingness and pure spiritedness. But rather you remain at the level of the intellect, reason, logic, or psychology.
A: In our previous long marathon discussions, you may remember that I have been stressing that I am only an independent researcher in Psychology and would remain so. I am not a world, mystical or spiritual teacher or any such kind.

Q:I feel you have not experienced a complete and total death of the 'self', which K said was necessary (dying completely to the known) in order to attain that extraordinary state of being that he had attained.
A: You have rightly pointed out. I may never say that I have lost the 'self' completely. Because, then only I can continue to improve the duration of my meditation sessions. If I say I have become, there is no scope for improvement or then the improvement stops.

Even during small sessions, when you meditate, the self is not. Even the most 'selfish' person will be without the self, during some or other time in a day. It is my finding, that intelligence is neither fully nor always dead.

Q: Your recurring bouts of depression help confirm this view. Even though they're less frequent. Which I feel results from your lack of courage to unearth and fully fathom the full truths about yourself and/or the human condition.
A: You are welcome to confirm any of your views. There are some others who have opined that 'like me, if everyone had the courage not to call Psychiatrists during bouts of depressions', then whole world would have been free. Neither of these views is going to affect, confirm or alter my position or progress.

Q: Or might I say you haven't fully taken off your rose-colored glasses. I too have experienced periods of incapacitating depression with my awakening. Along with periods of extreme elation that too were incapacitating.
A: See Bob, I really feel for you, because you may be missing the golden chance. I have mentioned to you repeatedly earlier. Depression is the gateway to freedom. Only thing is your entire consciousness shouldn't be immersed in that. Even if you (the pure consciousness) remain unimmersed by even 1%, then stay firm with it and stoically, without avoiding or embracing. And that pure consciousness will go on expanding and the depression dominated part will go on getting relieved.

Actually, after I threw away my earlier societal glasses, the world began to look rosy and beautiful. The fact that you are feeling extreme elation shows that you are un-consciously not allowing full observation of depression. Because, when sorrow or depression is observed and reduced then the elation is also proportionately reduced.

As depressions are reducing and becoming just small aberrations to me, and if it continues in this manner, then I may have to wonder later what it was like!

Q:K once said that in order to find out what love is - we must first find out what it is not. And this requires taking a long, hard, honest, and serious look at oneself and one's defects of character, behaviors, and actions which are not grounded in love. Which spring from a wrongly conditioned and functioning brain. However he did not keep the focus on this simple process of soul-searching, if you will. But instead he got sidetracked into the paralysis of analysis, logic, reason, and endless and fruitless diagoguing on the workings of the brain and mind, consciousness, thought, etc. Which carries over in very large part in these forums.
A: Despite some of his discrepancies, I have to humbly admit that K opened my eyes. The benefits I have derived far outweigh the delay due to those discrepancies, in my liberation or whatever you call. Now, it is for you to leave the doubtful things behind and proceed with what you find right.

Q: I feel I'm ineffective with others because I'm not focused on reaching deeply into men's minds and hearts, which must be done if real change is to take place in them.
A: If real change takes place in you first, then you will try to bring change in others both effortlessly and choicelessly.

Q: However remembering that perhaps only 2% of the species is capable of change in the context of first undergoing a revolutionary mutation of both the mind and the heart. Which means reachable and genuinely changeable minds and heart are quite rare and hard to find. And the initial and necessary shift or mutation being of the soul-shattering nature of the one K underwent in 1922.
A: I beg to differ, Bob. You will say, I am over confident. Please give me any number of healthy and even if malnourished infants. 100% of them I can raise with the dominating natural consciousness, with least or nil fragmentation. That is more than enough to make this world a paradise.

Q: Actually I'm seriously beginning to wonder if I'm in the right country for the awakening of some of my fellows. Whether the societal conditioning here has become so spiritually and morally bankrupt and corrupt that virtually no one is capable of genuine transformation and restoration to sanity.
A: Perhaps I too was of your view before I met K.Still all the frustrated young men fel so. It is me (or my own consciousness) that has to change, to see correctly. For that I need a quiet place and some food and some time for Tapas (meditation). This you can get in any country. After you change, any country doesn't matter. There are people who can listen and understand K in the west. In his birth country, there is so much growing orthodoxy, that only some foreign returned persons understand this.

Q:Lastly, I again post the following remark of K. And which I feel should have been the primary focus of the 'teachings'. And these forums, if they're to be of any spiritual value at all. "Can we look at ourselves, LOOK AT THE BASIC FACT OF OURSELVES - which is GREED, ENVY, ANXIETY, FEAR, HYPOCRISY, DECEPTION, AMBITION - can we watch that, without any distortion." (J. K.).
A: Going deeper is important, irrespective of the teachings. To understand K, his dissolution statement and the core of the teachings are simple, brief and more than enough. Because, people weren't reciprocating, he went on saying and people went on collecting them. He didn't want us to collect them, he wanted us to be capable of producing such original statements. By merely studying the print-outs, can you understand the functioning of the computer?
Thank these forums, in the true spirit of K, they are doing their best. It is for the participants to make their efforts fruitful.

Q:My own personal experience also indicates that the total development of the human being will not take place in a person unless he steps fully out of the rat-race, at least for a time. And ideally forever.
A: Rightly said, Bob. And one can't step out of rat race, as long as the consciousness is dominated by its own fragmentation.

(no time to edit, I will do it on my return. Till then manage)

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Back to Top
Tue, 23 Jun 2009 #25
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna.....I will answer the following question that I posed to you previously.

"What gave YOU (given the fact that you in fact have undergone a genuine mutation) the capacity to be able to undergo such a thing in the first place?"

Without any doubt it was the rare and highly favorable, though certainly not always happy and pleasant, circumstances of my childhood upbringing. The result of which allowed my brain and sensory system to be properly (or naturally) developed in a finely-formed and highly sensitive manner. In which case the universally corrupt societal conditioning that was all around me did not take hold on me. Which allowed the mutation to take place latter in life. As was the case too with Krishnamurti and several other spiritual men whose lives I've carefully studied.

Bob M.

(cont.)

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 23 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Tue, 23 Jun 2009 #26
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna.....What I feel is necessary in order to finally bring the LIGHT of Love, Truth and Understanding into our dark and decaying world is a body of people (that will be formed away from the beaten path) who are capable of becoming the "Full-Flame", in K's words. Which will be comprised of those relatively few people who are capable of mutation and full human flowering. One along the lines of that which Krishnamurti set out to do in 1929 and never accomplished. And whereby he disbanned one organization and instead went on to create more organizations that surely did not "become the flame". Nor have they produced anyone of the stature of K.

"But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning and without an end, will walk together with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be true friendship. Because of that true friendship ? which you do not seem to know ? there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice." (J. Krishnamurti - 'Dissolution Speech')

So this remains my goal and purpose in life, Prasanna. And I would add here that the Perennial Philosophy (teaching or wisdom) is esoteric by the very nature and circumstances of life. That being, due to the fall of man and its accompanying gross neurological damage in the species, that only a small number of people are capable of grasping it, undergoing a mutation and then developing and living it out in all its fullness and glory.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

This post was last updated by Robert Michael (account deleted) Tue, 23 Jun 2009.

Back to Top
Wed, 24 Jun 2009 #27
Thumb_avatar Terrence Webster-Doyle United States 14 posts in this forum Offline

Forget it. This is like "Telephone Tree" with something so very different coming out far away from the original statement of mine about the Oak Grove School. I'm not getting into this confusion. I am "resigning" from this site. Terrence webster-Doyle

Peace will forever remain an ideal until the roots of conflict are understood

Back to Top
Wed, 24 Jun 2009 #28
Thumb_photo Prasanna P India 162 posts in this forum Offline

Terrence Webster-Doyle wrote:
Forget it. This is like "Telephone Tree" with something so very different coming out far away from the original statement of mine about the Oak Grove School. I'm not getting into this confusion. I am "resigning" from this site. Terrence webster-Doyle

There seemed nothing personal against you here, Terrence. We are all like researchers about the K state. We continue to have the same regards towards you. In their overzealousness, many people in the past have resigned and left the institutions. Even the newly started institutions didn't bring their expected satisfaction to all.

Perhaps you may have slightly altered your stance that there is very little you or the school can do about the problem of human consciousness, except of course keeping the dialogues open. As one who has had somewhat similar experience long time back, may I request you to stay on and watch, even if you can't contribute further to this discussion. I think, you may have left the school after K's death. If he was alive, perhaps he would have made you to stay on. Such was his charisma. Am I right ?

Unless Advanced, K's Teachings May Remain As Ineffective As of Now

Back to Top
Wed, 24 Jun 2009 #29
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Prasanna P wrote:
There seemed nothing personal against you here, Terrence. We are all like researchers about the K state. We continue to have the same regards towards you. In their overzealousness, many people in the past have resigned and left the institutions. Even the newly started institutions didn't bring their expected satisfaction to all.

The Krishnamurti industry has become a dead horse, Prasanna. It has gone the way of Christendom and all the rest of the religions and spiritual organizations. And in a much shorter time. Alcoholics Anonymous, which has been an excellant program and environment for my mutation and spiritual flowering has also gone down the same road. So spiritually or evolutionarily speaking our world is dark EVERYWHERE. Yet there remains hope for the human species.

"No government or well-established organization has ever made a radical departure from an existing pattern (including the fallen K enterprise?). The springs of a new life are always from the heart of the solitary man who knows how to dream and dares to act." (Radha Burnier)

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Wed, 24 Jun 2009 #30
Thumb_deleted_user_med Robert Michael United States 62 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Terrence Webster-Doyle wrote:

Forget it. This is like "Telephone Tree" with something so very different coming out far away from the original statement of mine about the Oak Grove School. I'm not getting into this confusion. I am "resigning" from this site. Terrence webster-Doyle


Best wishes in your days ahead, Terrence. However, my view is that you are not open to sincere and simple questioning (such as I posed early on in this thread) and dialogue. Without which there'll be no truth or right action in one's life. Nor will one be a genuine and radiant Light unto the world. But rather he will continue to feed the darkness.

Bob M.

"Very soon a man shall appear who will finally dispell the universal darkness from our world." (Bob M.)

Back to Top
Displaying posts 1 - 30 of 72 in total
To quote a portion of this post in your reply, first select the text and then click this "Quote" link.

(N.B. Be sure to insert an empty line between the quoted text and your reply.)