Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
Serious Debate | moderated by Drakanthus Drakanthus

You are the World

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #1
Thumb_avatar Drakanthus Drakanthus France 4 posts in this forum Offline

K often said this during his talks. At the time (of listening to his recordings) I could not grasp this statement. Several years later I have an understanding of what I think he meant. How have others understood his statement?

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #2
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

No, seriously, are you taking a survey of peoples opinions about their personal interpretations of their favorite K quotes?
Or, how can a debate(people craming their opinions down each others throat), be serious

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #3
Thumb_avatar Drakanthus Drakanthus France 4 posts in this forum Offline

Perhaps the word "debate" has too many connotations of one person trying to force their beliefs onto another person. What I mean is more a spirit of open enquiry.

Perhaps the most important thing I have learned from K is to question all beliefs - especially my own. Since birth we are all indoctrinated with the belief systems of our society, parents, peers and teachers. I like to enquire into these beliefs and see where they originate, what purpose they serve (if any) and which beliefs are valid to hold and which are not valid.

I believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning. I can't prove it, there may be some galactic catastrophe which prevents it, however, I feel comfortable that it will rise and there will be another day, so live my life on that basis.
However, the beliefs in a Christian god with which I was indoctrinated as a child are now seen through as being without substance, and are consequently discarded.

By discussing with other people, it is possible to discover something new or to uncover a mistaken belief. Sometimes the words used by one person don't bridge the communication gap, where different words do. With dialogue I don't seek to defend any position. My aim is to learn. There is an old saying "People have two ears and one tongue and they should be used in the same ratio." I tend to agree. This doesn't mean I accept what people tell me at face value - I look for myself.

Regarding K's well used phrase "You are the world". I never quite got what he was getting at with those words. After many years I now have an understanding of what I think he meant - but others may have taken K's words to mean something different - maybe my understanding is mistaken? Maybe someone else understood what he meant and can use different words to convey his meaning?

Sometimes these things are difficult to express in words, especially where a teaching points at something which is perceived directly - rather than an "idea" or object of knowledge to manipulate in the mind.

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #4
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

It's a fair enough question.

To me primarily it is about responsibility for the disorder humanity wreaks on the planet. It is an ending of 'them' and 'us'. It is seeing that there is only one human brain on the planet and 'I' am that.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #5
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ok, Patricia and Drakanthus, thanks for allowing me to elaborate a little on my previous post. Be back soon....

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #6
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

Can hardly wait Randal! ;)

Seriously - please do elaborate.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #7
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

Drakanthus Drakanthus wrote:
Since birth we are all indoctrinated with the belief systems of our society, parents, peers and teachers.

I would like to add here that human conditioning is even more insidious and difficult to unravel than that, as the movement of it perpetrates and entrenches itself through endless generations.

So it is much bigger than just looking at 'my own' little bit of conditioning or indoctrination, but rather apprehending the whole of it within humanity, and throughout cultures.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #8
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

A forum set up to specifically request people to speculate about what some person meant about this or that, causes me to salivate in anticipation of some of the opinions people might express. Because, you know, my job is to point out the obvious fact that most people have their head stuck deeply..........;o)

How would K approach a question such as this? Would he say something like, oh people are entitled to their opinions? I hardly can imagine that.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #9
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"discover something new or uncover a mistaken belief".
Do you mean that through knowledge/information, the mind is able to break free of the bondage of the authority of that very same knowledge/belief?
Or can one only observe their own brand of human insanity, which we all share in common, during these exchanges of opinion/belief. Of course one could do that in their daily life, with all their encounters during the day, or night.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #10
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

"sometimes, these things are difficult to express in words". I don't know, K didn't seem to have a problem expressing these things in words. The problems arise when people try to interperate, those words.
If I am crystal clear, the words are easily there. It is when I am lost, and confused, that the words become a difficulty.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #11
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

Being a 'devil's advocate' is fine Randal, but do you want to stifle communication altogether?

People are free to discuss anything. If there is another issue to be raised - by all means raise it. We can all question what is said - with logic and without personal put-down!

Randal said: "Because, you know, my job is to point out the obvious fact that most people have their head stuck deeply..........;o)"

Isn't your only concern where your head is stuck? We are all responsible for our own heads I would have thought! :D

I know - you were joking!

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #12
Thumb_copy_of_image0065 Ramesh G India 16 posts in this forum Offline

Randal,

Don't bother about other people offering opinions. It's their problem. Are you stuck deeply? Do you thing you are the world or someone separate from it? Your postings seem to suggest that you are apart from the world.

In my case I'm very much part of the world or I'm the world. I tell you how: If someone hurts me I want to hit them back. I react heavily. This is what most people I know are doing. So I can't claim to be different from them, though in my ignorance, after reading K, I used to blast people for their ignorace little knowing what was in store in for me in my subconscious and unconscious mind.

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #13
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Where do you see communication Patricia? In people expressing and exchanging opinions? In the psychological realm, I would call it a form of insanity.
It's a shame that your offense(being offended)takes precedence over the points being discussed.
No, my hobby is watching the world, and as most people actually do have their heads quite firmly embeded(sorry to offend, I'm over it), that is what I see.

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #14
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ok Ramesh G, now to you.
I am the world, yes, quite obviously. But I am not part of the insanity, no, sorry to disappoint you with that answer.
And I would only suggest that one "strikes back" as a response to fear/anger. That is what everyone is doing, yes. You seem proud to be part of that. If you feel blasted by my postings, my humbelest apologies. And to all of those offended by my pointing out where their heads are planted! ;o)

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #15
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:

Where do you see communication Patricia?

It's a myth Randal!

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #16
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes, and so how can I cause problems for a myth?

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Mon, 15 Jun 2009 #17
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 26 posts in this forum Offline

Drakanthus,

"I like to enquire into these beliefs and see where they originate, what purpose they serve (if any) and which beliefs are valid to hold and which are not valid."

What purpose is served by "belief"? A belief implies that the one believing doesn't
know and isn't aware of the facts (if either of these were true, it wouldn't be a belief.) If one doesn't know, then his belief is his opinion.

Beliefs (opinions) and belief systems (organized opinions) are and have been responsible for a great deal of the misery in the world.

max

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Tue, 16 Jun 2009 #18
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:

Yes, and so how can I cause problems for a myth?


Do you believe everything is about you Randal? ;)

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Wed, 17 Jun 2009 #19
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Of course, that is the nature of belief! ;o)

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Wed, 17 Jun 2009 #20
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

True!

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Wed, 17 Jun 2009 #21
Thumb_copy_of_image0065 Ramesh G India 16 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:
But I am not part of the insanity, no, sorry to disappoint you with that answer.

Had you said it otherwise I would have been disappointed. We can communicate only when we are at the same time, same level and same intensity. Are we ready for that kind of communication or do we believe in levels?

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

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Thu, 18 Jun 2009 #22
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ramesh G wrote:

Randal Shacklett wrote:
But I am not part of the insanity, no, sorry to disappoint you with that answer.

Had you said it otherwise I would have been disappointed. We can communicate only when we are at the same time, same level and same intensity. Are we ready for that kind of communication or do we believe in levels?


I am quite ready for anything. (well almost, anything)
I guess my first and only question at this point would be, what do we mean when we use the word, "communication"? For me, that word implies an exchange of information/knowledge.
This other thing you mention, this sort of together at the same moment(in the now)at the same intensity kind of deal, K would call communion, no? But as long as the only vehicle we have(as a species, as a whole)is this communication thing, would it be a sane action, to speculate about it(communion)?
We exchange information/belief/opinion, feel good about our polite little circle of like minded seekers, and we're done.
What are we left with, when all system/methodologies, are abandoned?
Hint: There are no answers, to questions like those.

This post was last updated by Randal Shacklett (account deleted) Thu, 18 Jun 2009.

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Thu, 18 Jun 2009 #23
Thumb_copy_of_image0065 Ramesh G India 16 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:
We exchange information/belief/opinion, feel good about our polite little circle of like minded seekers, and we're done.

Randal I'm serious. You may be a real master. I won't be jealous of you. My request to you is this: Can you come down from your Zen master-like position, and have some compassion for us and help us grow?

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

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Thu, 18 Jun 2009 #24
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

Ramesh G wrote:
have some compassion for us and help us grow?

How would you see yourself growing Ramesh - physically or psychologically?

Do you still believe that another person can 'help' you psychologically?

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Thu, 18 Jun 2009 #25
Thumb_copy_of_image0065 Ramesh G India 16 posts in this forum Offline

Patricia Hemingway wrote:
Do you still believe that another person can 'help' you psychologically?

Another person can definitely help me psychologically. 'No help from others' is a myth, a self-deception. I know you won't accept what I'm saying. I say what I truly feel. I don't want to use K language to say that there's no psychological evolution and that others can't help me. If you believe otherwise by all means do so.

Freedom from the known is Attention in the Unknown: Krishnamurti J

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Thu, 18 Jun 2009 #26
Thumb_stringio mike christani United States 8 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

I also have had difficulty with such a much-used phrase. However, he began using the phrase 'I am humanity' later in his life. I believe that is what he meant- the human brain, mind, feelings- none of these belong to an individual alone, but are human. Human suffering, human sorrow...

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Fri, 19 Jun 2009 #27
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 26 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:

We exchange information/belief/opinion, feel good about our polite little circle of like minded seekers, and we're done.
What are we left with, when all system/methodologies, are abandoned?


We are left with inquiry. We can inquire together into a subject. If there is any "help," as is being discussed, this is it.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Fri, 19 Jun 2009.

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Fri, 19 Jun 2009 #28
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

To be helped psychologically, or to help psychologically - either way it is only feeding the ego/self.

To help or be helped technically is another matter altogether. Help build a house, understand a language, music, how to cook, anything - that is loving. 'Helping' another psychologically is not loving - it is indulgence - for both the parties involved.

K was very clear on this point - and so am I! But to understand it one must first have an insight into where the technical ends and the psychological begins. And into what bred and what feeds the psychological self.

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Fri, 19 Jun 2009 #29
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 43 posts in this forum Offline

And Mike - If I see 'I am humanity' - am I going to provide nourishment for another struggling 'self' to perpetuate further? Or is it wisdom to say 'See the movement, understand the movement, but don't add to its energy'?

K never provided nourishment for the 'self', did he? He asked people stand alone and find out. He never said - 'go out and help each other psychologically'. Have you seen the talks with Shainberg? K debunks all that.

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Fri, 19 Jun 2009 #30
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 97 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ramesh G wrote:

Randal Shacklett wrote:
We exchange information/belief/opinion, feel good about our polite little circle of like minded seekers, and we're done.

Randal I'm serious. You may be a real master. I won't be jealous of you. My request to you is this: Can you come down from your Zen master-like position, and have some compassion for us and help us grow?


What is growth? The mind evolving from it's current state of conflicted interpersonal relationships to a pychological state of maturity and wisdom and peacful and harmonious love based soul matedomness, through the mechanism/system/method of some sort of belief system or other? No, again, I'm not part of that insanty so I really can't help you with it, sorry.
You really think I could be a master uh? Hey Eve, you hear that? Uh-huh, that's what I'm talking about! Master Randy, I like it!

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