Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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conflict

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Wed, 01 Jul 2009 #1
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

As long as it is our fundamental entertainment/pleasure, can we "observe" it clearly at all?

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Wed, 01 Jul 2009 #2
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 20 posts in this forum Offline

Randy, I suggest you reread what you have written....it is hard to understand.

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Thu, 02 Jul 2009 #3
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ok, The title of the post is included in the question. Does that help you?

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Thu, 02 Jul 2009 #4
Thumb_deleted_user_med Klaus M. Germany 1 post in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

As long as we are in conflict, can we "observe" conflict clearly at all? As long as we are in conflict, can we observe anything clearly at all? Or will our observation be distorted by conflict?

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Thu, 02 Jul 2009 #5
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes, those are some very interesting questions. I am asking the same thing in my post. Conflict, seems to be one of our greatest thrills/pleasures/entertainments. It is clearly accepted as a daily way of life. So we are faced with a conflict of interests(pun intended). On one hand, we love it, our ball team, our heroes, good guys and bad guys, etc.. On the other, in our working and personal relationships, it wrecks havoc. Can we observe something without bias, when we are addicted to it?

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Thu, 02 Jul 2009 #6
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 20 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:

Ok, The title of the post is included in the question. Does that help you?


.
Yes it does thanks. What you are saying is in conflict ;) he he. You either observe or you are in conflict. Conflict is a conditioned response to life based on reactive response as you have stated. I don't know if we are addicted to it or it is a form of entertainment or it is simply seen as unavoidable and the only way we function. We never really stop to question if there is another way we are sure this is it....You can only observe conflict after the fact but if you are really paying attention to it when it starts, or while it is happening it just ends....both can not exist at the same time.
But please go into what you mean by the word conflict....self conflict and or conflict with others? Or maybe they are both the same?

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Thu, 02 Jul 2009 #7
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 20 posts in this forum Offline

Randy, I question if it is based on pleasure....conflict is often very painful. It is more like automatic pilot...we react in a split second without really paying attention to that reaction. I suppose the root has to be the self and the past. If we are able to slow donwn our reactive response, perhaps we are able to see the conditioned response of the image?

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Fri, 03 Jul 2009 #8
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Eve Goodmon wrote:
Randal Shacklett wrote:

Ok, The title of the post is included in the question. Does that help you?


.
Yes it does thanks. What you are saying is in conflict ;) he he. You either observe or you are in conflict. Conflict is a conditioned response to life based on reactive response as you have stated. I don't know if we are addicted to it or it is a form of entertainment or it is simply seen as unavoidable and the only way we function. We never really stop to question if there is another way we are sure this is it....You can only observe conflict after the fact but if you are really paying attention to it when it starts, or while it is happening it just ends....both can not exist at the same time.
But please go into what you mean by the word conflict....self conflict and or conflict with others? Or maybe they are both the same?


If you observe conflict, after the fact, you are simply accumulating experience. It's the classic game of knowledge. Behavior modification, through reward and punishment.
All that other stuff about starting and stopping and beginning and ending, is simply more opinion exchange, isn't it?
As far as what I mean when I use the word conflict, you can interchange the word comparison.

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Fri, 03 Jul 2009 #9
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Eve Goodmon wrote:

Randy, I question if it is based on pleasure....conflict is often very painful. It is more like automatic pilot...we react in a split second without really paying attention to that reaction. I suppose the root has to be the self and the past. If we are able to slow donwn our reactive response, perhaps we are able to see the conditioned response of the image?


What is the essence of the dramatic arts? TV, Movies, plays, opera. CONFLICT!
When our Gods collide? CONFLICT! In relationships of all types and levels, when egos compare/compete? CONFLICT! On our ball fields........when we're bored.
In our loves and homes and families.
In our programmed responses, yes.

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Fri, 17 Jul 2009 #10
Thumb_avatar Ron Ziv Israel 1 post in this forum Offline

Conflict is both good and bad. If I want to learn a new language, I am currently in a place that I want to change, I want to move from ignorence to knowlage this is conflict. I am saying that I want. As soon as I have said this I am in conflict. Without conflict there would be no processes, no learning, all of these things are inherint in conflict.

I believe that in the spiritual-quantum paradigm there is no conflict because everything is everything and all things exist. In a place of all existing entities there is endless intelligence and potential. In this place I am you and you are me, and all things, therefore conflict is gone.

So, when I speak of conflict or are caught up in it's web, I try to see it's meaning in the now and act accordingly no prejugement.

I just read what I wrote and I know what I meant but I think I shouldn't be writing this kind of stuff so late at night ... I apologize.

The great sufferer

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Sat, 18 Jul 2009 #11
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 30 posts in this forum Offline

Generally speaking - conflict gives energy to people.

Many function on conflict energy - driven by competition. Just watch it.....

(I worked for years (in an opera company) with a man who had to throw a tantrum before every opening night - he could not perform without generating that energy - we would all be waiting for the big blow-up, and he never let us (or himself) down. And he did not appear to be aware of his motives, but it was clear the great energy this generated for him - And we all learned to get over it - quickly!)

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Sat, 18 Jul 2009 #12
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Ron Ziv wrote:

Conflict is both good and bad. If I want to learn a new language, I am currently in a place that I want to change, I want to move from ignorence to knowlage this is conflict. I am saying that I want. As soon as I have said this I am in conflict. Without conflict there would be no processes, no learning, all of these things are inherint in conflict.

I believe that in the spiritual-quantum paradigm there is no conflict because everything is everything and all things exist. In a place of all existing entities there is endless intelligence and potential. In this place I am you and you are me, and all things, therefore conflict is gone.

So, when I speak of conflict or are caught up in it's web, I try to see it's meaning in the now and act accordingly no prejugement.

I just read what I wrote and I know what I meant but I think I shouldn't be writing this kind of stuff so late at night ... I apologize.


What is it that makes people/places/things, "good" and "bad"?
Don't feel too badly Ron, it is not the lateness of the hour that causes you to rely on beliefs to navigate this life.

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Sat, 18 Jul 2009 #13
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

Generally speaking - conflict gives energy to people.

Many function on conflict energy - driven by competition. Just watch it.....

(I worked for years (in an opera company) with a man who had to throw a tantrum before every opening night - he could not perform without generating that energy - we would all be waiting for the big blow-up, and he never let us (or himself) down. And he did not appear to be aware of his motives, but it was clear the great energy this generated for him - And we all learned to get over it - quickly!)


Yes, conflict gives energy. So does chocolate and pleasures of all sorts. I'm sure we were saying that conflict is a form of pleasure/entertainment.
What is it that drives people to compete, with such high energy? If you have "just watch-ed it", you can surely speak about it, no?

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Sun, 19 Jul 2009 #14
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 30 posts in this forum Offline

We are conditioned to compete, aren't we? Psychologically, one person wishes to believe that he/she is better than another person, measures him/herself against another. It is a conditioned driving force.

Look at all the nonsense going on in the 'good looks' department - artificially puffed-up lips, inflated breasts, redesigned noses, faces and bodies. All based on the desire to compete more effectively with another, with an end-point of pleasure and self-satisfaction.

What better example of the psychological self destroying nature in the name of inventing a better image?

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Sun, 19 Jul 2009 #15
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

We are conditioned to compete, aren't we? Psychologically, one person wishes to believe that he/she is better than another person, measures him/herself against another. It is a conditioned driving force.

Look at all the nonsense going on in the 'good looks' department - artificially puffed-up lips, inflated breasts, redesigned noses, faces and bodies. All based on the desire to compete more effectively with another, with an end-point of pleasure and self-satisfaction.

What better example of the psychological self destroying nature in the name of inventing a better image?


But Patricia, if it were simply a matter of being programmed/conditioned, we could just re-write the program, no?
Peacocks inflate and puff up, but they don't create gods and such, do they?

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Sun, 19 Jul 2009 #16
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 30 posts in this forum Offline

It is not just a matter of re-writing the program Randal. That is akin to putting on a new coat. Many do just that........and call it 'change'. ;)

Peacocks inflate and puff up as naturally - there is nothing natural about cosmetic surgery surely? Chalk and cheese Randal!

Humans 'create (invent) gods and such' in an effort to worship themselves - as the 'good guy god' invented in mankind's image as something to strive towards - become - someone to judge, punish and forgive. God IS conditioning!

This post was last updated by Patricia Hemingway Sun, 19 Jul 2009.

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Mon, 20 Jul 2009 #17
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

It is not just a matter of re-writing the program Randal. That is akin to putting on a new coat. Many do just that........and call it 'change'. ;)

Peacocks inflate and puff up as naturally - there is nothing natural about cosmetic surgery surely? Chalk and cheese Randal!

Humans 'create (invent) gods and such' in an effort to worship themselves - as the 'good guy god' invented in mankind's image as something to strive towards - become - someone to judge, punish and forgive. God IS conditioning!


I wasn't saying it was a matter of rewriting the program. I was saying, that IF the constant competitive conflict within and without, were a matter of "conditioning", as you suggested, it could simply be re-programmed. But since, as you point out, re-programming(religion, psychology, philosophy, etc..)has not worked, it isn't simply conditioning at the base of our all out warfare on each other. So, what's your next best guess? ;o)

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Thu, 06 Aug 2009 #18
Thumb_avatar Monic Devi United States 11 posts in this forum Offline

Everywhere humanity is in conflict. Why?
why is there so much conflict?
What is the origin, the root cause of conflict?

the superficiality of existence is thriving

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Thu, 06 Aug 2009 #19
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Monic Devi wrote:

Everywhere humanity is in conflict. Why?
why is there so much conflict?
What is the origin, the root cause of conflict?


Yes, yes, conflict, the root cause, what is it, good question. What do you think?

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Thu, 06 Aug 2009 #20
Thumb_deleted_user_med Chafia Abdi France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Randal Shacklett wrote:
Monic Devi wrote:

Everywhere humanity is in conflict. Why?
why is there so much conflict?
What is the origin, the root cause of conflict?


Yes, yes, conflict, the root cause, what is it, good question. What do you think?

May I join this topic?

When I feel lonely, desperate and I do, my inward emptiness frightens me.I start thinking that I am nothing, I compare my situation to others & then I cry of pity about myself & I am in the midst of conflict, contradiction ... a horor. So I do not want to stay with my misery, I jump on the first opportunity to fill and fullfill. Whatever it is I find. using people who I may call " friends" whatever and I realise that I am breeding this conflict inwardly because I am ashamed to use others and so on...
I didn't try it but may I ask if we can say : since we do not admit that we are not as important as we think and after all it's not a big deal, So if I observe my situation and not justify it or put the word "DESPAIR" on it, what will take place?

Sorry I hope I made it clear?

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Fri, 07 Aug 2009 #21
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Chafia Abdi wrote:
Randal Shacklett wrote:
Monic Devi wrote:

Everywhere humanity is in conflict. Why?
why is there so much conflict?
What is the origin, the root cause of conflict?


Yes, yes, conflict, the root cause, what is it, good question. What do you think?

May I join this topic?

When I feel lonely, desperate and I do, my inward emptiness frightens me.I start thinking that I am nothing, I compare my situation to others & then I cry of pity about myself & I am in the midst of conflict, contradiction ... a horor. So I do not want to stay with my misery, I jump on the first opportunity to fill and fullfill. Whatever it is I find. using people who I may call " friends" whatever and I realise that I am breeding this conflict inwardly because I am ashamed to use others and so on...
I didn't try it but may I ask if we can say : since we do not admit that we are not as important as we think and after all it's not a big deal, So if I observe my situation and not justify it or put the word "DESPAIR" on it, what will take place?

Sorry I hope I made it clear?


Yes, yes, what will take place, good question.
Why do I want to know that and, how will I find out what takes place?

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Fri, 07 Aug 2009 #22
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 32 posts in this forum Offline

Hello, Chafia Abdi.While observing,should it be made a precondition that I will not call my situation"Despair"?
Total attention will catch everything that is coming on the screen of consciousness.
If I don't observe everything,then I am escaping from my thoughts and feelings.In this case my state of despair will persist at one or other level.
But if I am observing with total attention, then disorder of despair becomes order without any desire on my part to make it so.That movement of attention will dissolve the state of despair but 'YOU' will never know it.If 'YOU' come in to analyse what is happening, then despair is back from another door!
Regards.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

This post was last updated by Sudhir Sharma Fri, 07 Aug 2009.

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Fri, 07 Aug 2009 #23
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 32 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Randal Shacklett,in the technical field,in the physical world we make effort to improve things and our comfort level.
When we start applying the same formula psychologically to gain happiness,peace,love etc.the conflict starts.Thoughts produce desires of the opposing kind resulting in conflict and emotional disturbances.
As long as I am trying to achieve more psychologically, the conflict will persist.To my mind this inner movement of thought is the root cause of conflict.
Regards!

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Fri, 07 Aug 2009 #24
Thumb_img001 Sudhir Sharma India 32 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Monic Devi, humanity has always been in conflict.If you want to do something about it ,then dissolve your inner conflict first.Knowledge of the cause and origin of conflict is not going to help in dissolving your conflicts.
Observation, Awareness, Total Attention is the way to dissolve conflict and only you can do something about it.
Regards.

FLOW WITH LIFE!

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Fri, 07 Aug 2009 #25
Thumb_deleted_user_med Chafia Abdi France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Randal Shacklett wrote:
Yes, yes, what will take place, good question. Why do I want to know that and, how will I find out what takes place?

Well, I want to know because it is not a comforting situation. I am in conflict with myself, therefore I am suffering. It prevents me from enjoying my time.

Earnestly, it is very very difficult to say well "I am loney & in despair" I mean to be really, really aware of it & not add :
" how can I get rid of this conflictual feeling? "

Monic Devi wrote:
Everywhere humanity is in conflict. Why? why is there so much conflict? What is the origin, the root cause of conflict?

The roots of conflict several thousands years ago? means when human being started exploiting his fellows?
OR
The little dreaming schoolboy/girl wanting to speak to birds & trees and get bawled & shouted to pay attention?

I would like to know if it is the same roots. I wonder.
we are influenced by a whole society already in conflict before our coming to this world? No?

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Fri, 07 Aug 2009 #26
Thumb_deleted_user_med Chafia Abdi France 14 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:
But if I am observing with total attention, then disorder of despair becomes order without any desire on my part to make it so.That movement of attention will dissolve the state of despair

If I were in this perfect attention & "order" does this feeling of conflict come into being?
Suppose I am in conflict with my diffrent desires tearing in all directions, Am I in a situation to look clearly? I am confused I can't neither observe nor be attentive? What shall I do?

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Fri, 07 Aug 2009 #27
Thumb_henry Thérèse Doyle Okamoto United States 29 posts in this forum Offline

Chafia Abdi wrote:
Am I in a situation to look clearly?

It's a personality conflict! Too much alike.

Health care is everyone's job, not just in treating illness but in promoting healthy living. We must take personal responsibility, engaging our minds and hands in meaningful work - all essential components of healthy, secure lifestyles and communities.

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Sat, 08 Aug 2009 #28
Thumb_patricia_1_2016_copy Patricia Hemingway Australia 30 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett wrote:

So if I observe my situation and not justify it or put the word "DESPAIR" on it, what will take place?

Sorry I hope I made it clear?

Yes, yes, what will take place, good question. Why do I want to know that and, how will I find out what takes place?

Why is that a good question Randal? It leads only to speculation surely. More talk - no action.

Want to know 'What will take place'? Take the action. That is all. Start to speculate - the action is dead.

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Sat, 08 Aug 2009 #29
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Sarcasm.
The poster took a Krishnamurti quote and turned it on me. I gave the same sarcastic response to the previous poster also.
When we start to speculate, "what takes place" is dead, not action. Crazy action is never dead.

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Sat, 08 Aug 2009 #30
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 263 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dr.sudhir sharma wrote:

Dear Randal Shacklett,in the technical field,in the physical world we make effort to improve things and our comfort level.
When we start applying the same formula psychologically to gain happiness,peace,love etc.the conflict starts.Thoughts produce desires of the opposing kind resulting in conflict and emotional disturbances.
As long as I am trying to achieve more psychologically, the conflict will persist.To my mind this inner movement of thought is the root cause of conflict.
Regards!


Yes, but can you demonstrate how this "inner movement of thought", becomes WWII?

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