Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
I Am Not This.. | moderated by Manoj SachDeva

'This' Blocks The Clear Perception...

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #1
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

Being and relating in the world, there is a sense of 'my conditioning' corrupting the clarity of perception. Result is a 'partial action' that creates more miseries than solving the problems. Is it possible to 'push aside' or 'look through' the murky conditioning and perceive 'what is', as it is?

I Am Not This!

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #2
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

Manoj SachDeva wrote:

Being and relating in the world, there is a sense of 'my conditioning' corrupting the clarity of perception. Result is a 'partial action' that creates more miseries than solving the problems. Is it possible to 'push aside' or 'look through' the murky conditioning and perceive 'what is', as it is?


Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #3
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

You can look at the SUn/Moon or whatever is in your ambience in Nature around you just at the moment can`t you? You do not need all the tags of Conditioning for this.This computer I am typing is loaded with memory of its own plus the one I have put in as storage, still it operates on the desk with the particular topic on hand just now, free from the MEMORY... is it possible to operate for an humanbeing like that?

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #4
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, is it possible to act without a 'memory bias? Analogy of computer is a good one. And, we need to realize that 'virus' corrupts even the machine. Its functioning become destructive and damaging due to hidden agendas and replicating nature of 'virus programing'. Computer is an extension of the human mind and mimics 'mind' even more efficiently.

I Am Not This!

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Thu, 11 Jun 2009 #5
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

Thanks Manoj SachDeva but please do not stop with this computer analogy alone. Delve deeper into your original question.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #6
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Krishnan Srinivasan, so the mind is conditioned like a computer. I am questioning whether there is a possibility of perception that is free of conditioning. As you suggested, looking at sun/moon/mountain etc, it is relatively easier to watch without a commentary. But in dealing with human beings, more so with intimate relations- each encounter brings with it truckload of memories and associations. And all those bits and pieces are not even conscious. Most of the time, they are implied, under the surface but having, often, not understood but very powerful influence on the action. I am acknowledging the presence of this 'conditioning' and seriously asking if there is a possibility to look at the other without this conditioning.

I Am Not This!

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #7
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

Randal Shacklett writes:

But the computer is not free of its operating system. It is programmed to respond to certain stimuli, just like people are conditioned to respond to certain sensory inputs. We are walking machines who think we are god.

I Am Not This!

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #8
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

Welcome Randal.

You write that we are walking machines, conditioned to respond to certain stimuli in a certain way. My concern is to find out if this mechanical way is the totality of existence or is there another possibility that is beyond mechanical conditioning. How can we probe this?

I Am Not This!

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #9
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

Manoj SachDeva wrote:
But in dealing with human beings, more so with intimate relations- each encounter brings with it truckload of memories and associations. And all those bits and pieces are not even conscious. Most of the time, they are implied, under the surface but having, often, not understood but very powerful influence on the action. I am acknowledging the presence of this 'conditioning' and seriously asking if there is a possibility to look at the other without this conditioning.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Fri, 12 Jun 2009 #10
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

Hi Manoj SachDeva, Yes I agree in personal relationships ,conscious and unconscious forces from deep down from the inception of birth arise like memories even without one being aware of them.There is a possibility of looking at the other without this truckloads or videoloads of memory only when LOVE in ones heart blossoms and stays as a fragrance forever within.Love can be, when self is not. Love can exist, when detachment exists like the Tamarind fruit encased and bound by its own fibres to the outer shell of body.Tamarind is ever-so-ready to shed its shell.Are we ready to depart from our bodies like that fruit? Life and death exist or coexist. My Life now is dependant of my Death now. That is I may drop dead any moment ,like the Tamarind fruit willing to cast aside its body
at any instance. Are we like that? Then one is in LOVE and the possibility that you speculate exists. What I am going to lose by LOVING? What am I going to lose by dying?
These are the questions for all the moments of our lives.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #11
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 4 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Can we probe what is beyond our reach? I suggest that beyond our reach, all we can do is speculate, no?
So what does that leave us, that we can probe?

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #12
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

Dear Krishnan, are you saying that 'self' is conditioned. It is in the 'death' of conditioned self that the unconditioned, that is love, can exist? You are suggesting that in the readiness to drop 'the past', like tamarind fruit is ever ready to let go its body, the present is.

So, as the videoload of memory come up and threaten to hijack the present moment, the awareness of ''past'' and its being inappropriate in dealing with the present moment, let the ''old'' drop, like the body of tamarind.

I Am Not This!

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #13
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

Yes, Randal. Speculating what is unknown is not the way. So, will it be ok if we begin ''near''? investigating what is.. relationship as we know. ....images that prevent true meeting.

I Am Not This!

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #14
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

Manoj SachDeva wrote:

Dear Krishnan, are you saying that 'self' is conditioned. It is in the 'death' of conditioned self that the unconditioned, that is love, can exist? You are suggesting that in the readiness to drop 'the past', like tamarind fruit is ever ready to let go its body, the present is.

So, as the videoload of memory come up and threaten to hijack the present moment, the awareness of ''past'' and its being inappropriate in dealing with the present moment, let the ''old'' drop, like the body of tamarind.


Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Sat, 13 Jun 2009 #15
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

Self is an "Idea", A construct of this particular persons consciousness identifying as ones "self"/I. It is built up by blockls of conditioned experiences,mempries, actions&reactions,feelings,emotions etc. To go beyond the self one has to look constantly look at thios bondage that self wraps one up.To lose the self is to love. When one loses ones self one can be "other".or one can be aware of all things around ones ambience.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #16
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 4 posts in this forum Offline

Manoj SachDeva wrote:

Being and relating in the world, there is a sense of 'my conditioning' corrupting the clarity of perception. Result is a 'partial action' that creates more miseries than solving the problems. Is it possible to 'push aside' or 'look through' the murky conditioning and perceive 'what is', as it is?


The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #17
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 4 posts in this forum Offline

Manoj SachDeva wrote:

Being and relating in the world, there is a sense of 'my conditioning' corrupting the clarity of perception. Result is a 'partial action' that creates more miseries than solving the problems. Is it possible to 'push aside' or 'look through' the murky conditioning and perceive 'what is', as it is?


Yes it is true, but if you watch K in the nature of the mind. what do you think is happening there? there is clearly an exploration and the pushing of frontiers but it is not speculation....

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #18
Thumb_img_7089_copy Eve G. Indonesia 4 posts in this forum Offline

Sorry this was suppose to be a repy to Randal...I am not sure what I have done wrong...but clearly I need more practice at this. Sorry!
Kind Regards,
Eve

The nature of the change from disorder is silence.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #19
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 4 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

As we know it, what is relationship? Peacful harmonious co-existance with concern for the feelings of all? No. It is constant competition and conflict. Can I/we explore that, if we are polite and on our best behavior?

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #20
Thumb_deleted_user_med Randal Shacklett United States 4 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

You are scareing me Eve. Why are you being so nice to me? ;o)

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #21
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

Manoj SachDeva wrote:
Self is an "Idea", A construct of this particular persons consciousness identifying as ones "self"/I. It is built up by blockls of conditioned experiences,mempries, actions&reactions,feelings,emotions etc. To go beyond the self one has to look constantly look at thios bondage that self wraps one up.To lose the self is to love. When one loses ones self one can be "other".or one can be aware of all things around ones ambience.

Yes, Krishnan. Self is an idea, a wooly construct. Watchful it is the conditioned block.. experiences, memory... all past. When this past colors the present... innocence of the moment is lost.. and past continues in a modified way.. there in nothing new.. You are saying when this idea of self is not, other is.. love is..

I Am Not This!

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #22
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

Manoj SachDeva wrote:

Being and relating in the world, there is a sense of 'my conditioning' corrupting the clarity of perception. Result is a 'partial action' that creates more miseries than solving the problems. Is it possible to 'push aside' or 'look through' the murky conditioning and perceive 'what is', as it is?


Thanks Eve, for the effort to clarify. If I am getting you right, the apology is about a possible confusion as to whom your answer belong. All of us are new and learning this new communication idiom...

I Am Not This!

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #23
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

Manoj SachDeva wrote:
You are saying when this idea of self is not, other is.. love is..

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #24
Thumb_jan09_012 Peter Stephens Australia 4 posts in this forum Offline

You can look at the SUn/Moon or whatever is in your ambience in Nature

I am not a romantic but like looking at the moon, or anything together with someone can be a shared oneness, and it is an obvious moment of communion, of love, nothing to do with belief, ideas, thought.

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #25
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

When a couple have sexual activity, it is not uncommon to experience the loss of the "self" and that is why probably, (it is my guess), they crave more and more of the same. So any emotional or other experiences in the absence of the so-called "SELF" seems to be sought after as though it is "BLISS".One shall not hgunt after it but one has to become aware of the self operating in myriads of ways.
In general, one should be in touch with the other/NATURE/GOD or whatever one term it, by casting aside the "SELF", that is my conjecture. I have some strange experiences in this regard as "OUT-OF_THE BODY-EXPERIENCES". Why to talk about it when I cannot command it at will or why to boast of it.Persons may find it strange. But in Indian religious history, there are countless anecdotes of this kind. a devotee merging with the OTHER in true person(with the body&mind/consciousness)-The town I was born has a humanbeing turned GODDESS- SRI ANDAL was a an orphan girl brought up by the Brahmin priest of the temple. She fell in love with the male God RENGAMANNAR and fancied him in devotion .She wrote poems in Tamil-Even today they are sung. She merged as ONE with the Deity at the temple.True love story. Still the temple for her exists even today. Her story belongs to the 8th century.In north they have MEERA, in south they have ANDAL-

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #26
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

And here I made the mistake of copying a non-intended post. Intention was to copy Eve's '√°pology' mail that I heard as an attempt to clarify that it was a response to Randall and not to any other mail.

Randall is wondering if we are so nice and polite how in the world we can ever explore the competitive and conflicting reality of self.

Is it right Eve and Randall?

I Am Not This!

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #27
Thumb_avatar Manoj SachDeva India 37 posts in this forum Offline

Manoj SachDeva wrote:
One shall not hunt after it but one has to become aware of the self operating in myriads of ways. In general, one should be in touch with the other/NATURE/GOD or whatever one term it, by casting aside the "SELF", that is my conjecture.

Can we probe this?

Not hunting but in touch with... by casting aside the "SELF".

There is awareness of the 'hunter' and that is self!

I Am Not This!

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #28
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

Manoj SachDeva wrote:
There is awareness of the 'hunter' and that is self!

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #29
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

very much so.All our seeking carries a rider. That is why we shall not seek but watch ourselves as we operate in this world. One may not be this and that but one does not have to"BECOME" (somebody or something, enlightenment or otherwise...)

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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Sun, 14 Jun 2009 #30
Thumb_readytoloadup_correction Krishnan Srinivasan Denmark 12 posts in this forum Offline

I just could not write a few more lines above so I continue here.
Some blockage in the computer-system, presume.

The matter is the tamrind fruit is willing to shed its body,but are we? It is instinctively programmed to fall apart from its encsement/shell/body-but we are not.We fear DEATH immensely! As JK would put it, if one lives with DEATH nextdoor all the time,one is preapred like the TAMARIND.

Life is like the tamarind fruit bound in its shell

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