Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Patricia Hemingway's Forum Activity | 2303 posts in 13 forums


Forum: Serious Debate Mon, 13 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Prasanna - The teaching is polluted when it is watered down - made easy - officialized by science. But one has the source to return to, which thanks to the K Foundations remains pure, (if one can get past the commentaries in the introductions of some of the later books).

Eve - you speak of "guiding the young to question conditioning". One can do that only if one has ended conditioning in one's own life. And if one has ended conditioning, there is no need to do anything apart from act from that state of no-conditioning.

Bob M - K was still conditioned himself back in 1924 - by the Theosophists. It took years for him to end this conditioning, just as it does for us - it is a process. K may have been all 'warm and fuzzy' and appealing back in 1924, but the true clarity of the teaching is in the later, very austere, teaching at the end of his life. This is why it is important to approach the teaching as a whole, and with complete understanding of life's dynamic processes.

Forum: Insights Tue, 14 Jul 2009
Topic: Healing the mind

Staying with what is - however painful or fearful - is the only true healing, I have discovered.

Hi Mike!

Forum: Serious Debate Tue, 14 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Prasanna P wrote: If you have become a light unto yourself, you don't need K either. If you haven't yet become, you have to understand K. Then you will become a light unto yourself.

Is 'becoming a light unto yourself' different to any other 'becoming? If so - in what manner is it different?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Tue, 14 Jul 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

The battle-lines are now perhaps a little more clearly defined, but the battle of the egos continues unabated!

Where does it go from here? Does it matter? Not really!

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Tue, 14 Jul 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

Michael Cecil wrote: In other words, when Krishnamurti talks about stepping outside of time and bringing and end to conditioning, does this not signify that the consciousness he is talking about is, quite literally, escaping the controls that have been imposed by the current geo-magnetic field upon the vast majority of brains on this planet?

Hello Michael -

Isn't it that there is one human brain? What you are saying about the influence of the geo-magnetic field's effect on that human brain is new to me - which is not to say I dismiss it. It is an interesting theory certainly.

But the problem of humanity is clearly that the natural physical function of the human brain is over-ridden by an invented psychological self, and when K talks about 'stepping outside of (psychological) time and bringing an end to conditioning' - is it not a total ending of that invented conditioned self he is referring to?

Is adding into that simple equation another element (as the geo-magnetic field and its influence) just further complicating the matter? - or worse, finding an excuse not to take direct responsibility for the disorder, because it is beyond our control anyway?

Just asking.

Forum: Insights Tue, 14 Jul 2009
Topic: Healing the mind

Hi Mike - Rasmus -

That's it - staying with it - fear, psychological pain - there is a moving into it, through it, which allows it to dissipate naturally.

One can never deny or wish it away - that does not work at all. There is always avoidance, which will work for a while perhaps, but eventually the fear/pain will return and bite again.

But one can go deeper into it, embrace it, even to the point of just allowing it to kill you. (This is not a theory to me either Mike - it is an actuality.)

Forum: Insights Tue, 14 Jul 2009
Topic: Healing the mind

I remember K talking at one stage about following a thought through to its natural/logical conclusion.........

Fear is thought, psychological pain is thought......

Forum: Insights Tue, 14 Jul 2009
Topic: Healing the mind

Rasmus Tinning wrote: f thought is the problem, and ?staying with? or following a thought is the solution, haven?t we somewhat reduced the whole thing? Has ?staying with it? not become a cure-all method?

Well - don't believe me. Find out the actuality of it and then there will be no need to ask that question about 'method'.

Forum: Insights Wed, 15 Jul 2009
Topic: Healing the mind

Anxiety=thought='me'. Fear=thought='me'. Psychological pain=thought='me'. Anger=thought='me'.

(Or vice-versa)

How can staying with the fact of it possibly be a 'method'?

Standing outside of that fact and having an opinion about it, on the other hand, may well lead to invention of a method.

Forum: Question authority Wed, 15 Jul 2009
Topic: Religion: Humanity's Bitter Curse

Zahira Alaskar wrote: Randall, I think before I begin the practice in these teachings I want a promise of something better than I currently observe. The practice of staying with "what is" in the moment, enough energy for some mutation to occur, will it change this over all state of humanity? If so, it may well be worth the diligence. Or how about the promise of changing the "me"?

Why presume to put conditions on truth? Why presume to be so 'all-important'?

One is either passionate about finding out about truth and life - unconditionally - or one is not.

How can anyone even begin to enter the unknown while carrying projections - or hopes! - of what one will find there.

What 'promise' of 'changing the "me"'? Do you desire a better 'me'? Is that what you think K promises?

And what is 'practicing the teaching'? Does one 'practice' life? When is the real thing?

Forum: Serious Debate Wed, 15 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Prasanna P wrote: If you tell me what is that 'any other becoming', I can tell you how it is different.

"I" am this - "I" will be that.

K made that comment about 'being a light unto oneself' very early in his life/teaching. He probably became aware that it was an invitation to 'become-ers', and ceased to mention it - with good logical reason.

Forum: Question authority Wed, 15 Jul 2009
Topic: poetry

lol - Yes, pain on the one hand, pleasures on the other. Funny about that! :)

Forum: Serious Debate Wed, 15 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Prasanna P wrote: When I say, "you are conditioned now, and you will have to be unconditioned", a lay man who hasn't read K will understand this. It is quite simple. His present state should change into the new unconditioned state.

In other words - he will become a better self?

Forum: Question authority Wed, 15 Jul 2009
Topic: Religion: Humanity's Bitter Curse

Zahira Alaskar wrote: Patricia, entering the unknown is quite a fearful action. I think I should have some idea where I will end up. K seemed to promise lots of beauty, love, intelligence in all his writings. Will I end up there is I attend the timeless?

Hello Zahira -

Where do people get the idea that K 'seemed to promise lots of beauty, love, intelligence in his writings'? To me, the teaching is about understanding the disorder of humanity, and one's responsibility in that disorder.

Perhaps the reason so few understood K during his lifetime, and since, is that they only bothered to go there because they think there is a promised reward.

Other gurus may promise rewards. K only pointed to truth, and then said: Find out.

If in the early days, when he was still under the influence of the Theosophists, K said things like: 'I want to set mankind unconditionally free', don't forget that he was also conditioned - by the Theosophists, and by his Brahman upbringing. We all have conditioning to understand and deal with - K was no exception. He just found the intelligence to decode it all - totally.

It is in the later teaching that K is at his most austere and clear, and then he is promising nothing, but going deeply into the disorder that humanity finds itself in.

But don't listen to anything said by anyone else - especially me! Find out! :)

Forum: Question authority Wed, 15 Jul 2009
Topic: Religion: Humanity's Bitter Curse

Zahira Alaskar wrote: Patricia, entering the unknown is quite a fearful action. I think I should have some idea where I will end up. K seemed to promise lots of beauty, love, intelligence in all his writings. Will I end up there is I attend the timeless?

Hello Zahira -

Where do people get the idea that K 'seemed to promise lots of beauty, love, intelligence in his writings'? To me, the teaching is about understanding the disorder of humanity, and one's responsibility in that disorder.

Perhaps the reason so few understood K during his lifetime, and since, is that they only bothered to go there because they think there is a promised reward.

Other gurus may promise rewards. K only pointed to truth, and then said: Find out.

If in the early days, when he was still under the influence of the Theosophists, K said things like: 'I want to set mankind unconditionally free', don't forget that he was also conditioned - by the Theosophists, and by his Brahman upbringing. We all have conditioning to understand and deal with - K was no exception. He just found the intelligence to decode it all - totally.

It is in the later teaching that K is at his most austere and clear, and then he is promising nothing, but going deeply into the disorder that humanity finds itself in.

But don't believe anything said by anyone else - especially me! Find out! :)

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Thu, 16 Jul 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

Ramesh G wrote: The self doesn't want to end itself. That's why it creates a lot of theories.

Yes - exactly. It invents theories wherein it can conceal itself - such as all this left-right brain chatter. Anything to avoid the real issue - which is the disorder that humankind has unleashed upon the planet.

Forum: Serious Debate Thu, 16 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Richard - you are correct. My statement about 'a light to oneself' was quite inaccurate, and there is a need for accuracy.

K did continue to the end of his life to ask people to stand alone and find out, and to be a light unto themselves, as you point out.

I don't have any excuse for this inaccuracy - apart from my own inattention and carelessness, which is NO excuse.

It is just a pity to hear 'a light unto oneself' advocated as becoming - ie: "I am not a light to myself now, but I will be". When all K was saying with his statement was "Stand alone and find out". There is no becoming at all in that.

But when it is turned into a K dogma it is then something to strive towards........ therefore one endeavours to 'become' it. That was the point of my comment, as K was careful towards the end of his life to cease such loopholes for thought to find security within.

Perhaps it is a new loophole. I mean - the simplicity of just standing alone as a light to oneself is now something one has to 'BECOME'?

Forum: Serious Debate Thu, 16 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Prasanna P wrote: If 'I' is unfragmented, then it becomes a pure 'I' and thinking or usage of knowledge becomes optional or voluntary.

Are you then speaking of a higher self? A better 'me'? K's teaching is not about a higher self, surely? He pointed to something other than that.

"Higher self" has already been done! :)

Forum: Serious Debate Thu, 16 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

And I appreciate you comments Richard. And for pointing out a clear mistake that I made as a result of over-reaction! Interesting! :)

Forum: Serious Debate Thu, 16 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Prasanna P wrote: I have been telling you to be free from your 'self' for a moment. Then you will not only understand me, but yourself, which amounts to understanding K.

Oh dear Prasanna - why are you telling me - or anyone - what to do? Are you the authority? One can ask questions by all means, but no orders please. That has all been done too, by all religions, over the ages!

The teaching is about questioning, standing alone, and finding out. Where is the place in there for "I have been telling you to be free from your 'self' for a moment"? Surely we are beyond all that authoritarian nonsense.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Fri, 17 Jul 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

max greene wrote: The Self can't do anything because it is a construct. It can't invent theories; it can't conceal itself; it can't feel want and desire. It is totally incapable of taking action. The only thing the Self can do is sit there in our minds (where we ourselves have given it residence) and wield influence over us.

That makes no sense Max. How does the self 'wield influence over us' if not with theories, concealment, and constant self-protective action?

Why give it all that power on the one hand, and then ignore or deny the constant movement with which the power is maintained?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sat, 18 Jul 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

max greene wrote: The physical organism doesn't want the Self hurt.

Max - it seems that you are really complicating matters with this theory about where the self begins and ends, and what it can and cannot do. But there is no point at all in arguing about it, as the fact of it stands - regardless of what opinions anyone has about it. Same with the left-right brain theory, and opinions about where the self resides within all that.

But regarding your quote above: The physical organism exists - it does not 'want'. It has basic physical needs, but wants and desires are psychological surely.

However - I suggest that the self will readily harm the physical organism (and does so incessantly) in its effort to satiate desires, greed, and to remain in what it believes is 'control' of the physical. The self will - and does - destroy the body in an effort to achieve its ends.

On a wider scale - the self continues to destroy the planet also - for basically those same ends.

Forum: Serious Debate Sat, 18 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Our conditioning is a direct form of authority - so why continue to feed it?

Forum: Serious Debate Sat, 18 Jul 2009
Topic: Education and the K teachings
Eve Goodmon wrote:

I had an interview with a CEO of a n oil company who offered me a job in Balikpapan, Borneo and found out my friend died at the Ritz hotel bombing which I missed by a minute....I am ready to invest money in Boomberg I need you to teach me what I have to do. What do you say, not so weet Yiming maybe you are right, time for something new....

Hi Eve - when I heard about the bombing in Djakata yesterday I immediately thought about you for some reason, even though I know you live some distance away from the city.

So sorry to hear about your friend Eve. Death is never far away........that is just a fact of life.

Forum: Question authority Sat, 18 Jul 2009
Topic: conflict

Generally speaking - conflict gives energy to people.

Many function on conflict energy - driven by competition. Just watch it.....

(I worked for years (in an opera company) with a man who had to throw a tantrum before every opening night - he could not perform without generating that energy - we would all be waiting for the big blow-up, and he never let us (or himself) down. And he did not appear to be aware of his motives, but it was clear the great energy this generated for him - And we all learned to get over it - quickly!)

Forum: Serious Debate Sat, 18 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Prasanna P wrote: What do you mean by feeding the conditioning ?

One feeds conditioning when one tries to act as an authority to another - both one's own conditioning and that of the other person. K clearly knew that. We are conditioned by authority.

Forum: Serious Debate Sun, 19 Jul 2009
Topic: Why JK's Findings Need To Be Advanced ?

Richard Kover wrote: It seems to me that unless we end the influence of our own conditioning (our own authority) each time it crops up in relation to our own behavior - in regard to reacting according to self centered desires, or according to the past regrets and future hopes - we just reinforce continuity of our bondage to conditioned behavior.

Yes - and the clearest indication of conditioned behaviour is the authority that psychological thought tries to wield over the physical body - day by day. Once this is seen, a much clearer understanding of both conditioning and authority manifests.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sun, 19 Jul 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

max greene wrote: You're right. I "misspoke," as they say. The physical organism doesn't "want" anything. So what is the tie-in between the physical and the psychological? The physical is surely being influenced by the psychological, and yet it is very obvious that the psychological, as it is not a living thing--it's images, reflections, thoughts, whatever--cannot take action on its own. What's the link between the two? Why is the physical so influenced by its own non-physical constructions?

Max - Perhaps because thought - as the psychological self - is a tyrannical ruler, which feeds on its own power, and does not listen to the intelligence and sensibility of the human body.

Because thought is completely out of place in the psychological, and out of control as a result of the power it has accumulated there, over many many generations.

The only action that can be taken is for thought to see, and apprehend its own movement. One cannot make rules about 'how' or 'if' this is done - just do it. The access to the disorder is there in all of us.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sun, 19 Jul 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

max greene wrote: What is it that chooses? Faced with the choice, the organism thinks--perhaps not a verbalized thought--"prefer that one." There may not even be the thought of an "I," but . . . voila! The Self is born. The physical organism does not judge, evaluate, compare except as it relates to the "I" that it has created. We say that it is this "I," this Self, that is comparing, judging, evaluating, but it is not. It is the physical organism pulling the strings.

Max - It is important to understand where the physical entity begins and ends. And where the psychological non-entity kicks in and takes over.

This inquiry has led to the possibility that conditioning is so deep over the ages that humans are born with a psychological self all primed and ready to be activated, so the conditioning we are looking at is no longer a personal one.

'Choice' is psychological - 'need' as a means of survival is purely physical. At any point it is possible to apprehend the difference, but the self will fight like hell to avoid the observation. And the observation needs to be rooted in the realm of technical thought - ie: thought in its place as pure observation which is not in any way psychologically motivated - especially not motivated by desire to change, but only by empirical 'finding out'.

If the self starts jumping up and down and protesting, it is a pretty good indication that the inquiry is on the right track! :) As K referred to it - "the tricks of the monkey."

Forum: Question authority Sun, 19 Jul 2009
Topic: conflict

We are conditioned to compete, aren't we? Psychologically, one person wishes to believe that he/she is better than another person, measures him/herself against another. It is a conditioned driving force.

Look at all the nonsense going on in the 'good looks' department - artificially puffed-up lips, inflated breasts, redesigned noses, faces and bodies. All based on the desire to compete more effectively with another, with an end-point of pleasure and self-satisfaction.

What better example of the psychological self destroying nature in the name of inventing a better image?