Tom Paine wrote:

Sudhir Sharma wrote:

When one blames something for one's miseries and woes, then it is natural for that person to demand and to take action to end or eliminate that something from his life, right?

Tom : But he is it!

Let us be careful here...Isn't it me who is making this assertion about itself?

max greene wrote: The psychological can be made physically manifest only through physical reaction to thought -- the psychological.

That is right, but can one do anything, if at all, to be free of the influence of psychological on physical (action), Max?

Clive Elwell wrote: The last thing you mentioned:

Find/understand the limits of its action field.

Is most interesting, and perhaps controversial. It implies, does it not, that thought can bring about order in itself, by seeing its limits.

S : No, psychological thought and order are incompatible, Clive. In the name of bringing order, it will only continue its dual and conflict prone existence. The seeing/understanding of its limits by thought is full of too much impatience to create order in this field.

Tom Paine wrote: If there's an observation free of comparison, criticism, judgment, ego, then it's an observation free of 'me', isn't it? Maybe it's best not to speculate, but to deal with facts....'what is'....the bias of the observer...the comparison, judgment, concluding, experience, knowledge, etc. .

Can you explain your understanding of "deal with facts...what is...the bias..." some more please, Tom?

Tom Paine wrote: But there must be a 'way' to understand ourselves...

No, there is, unfortunately, no "way", Tom.

Tom Paine wrote: Consciousness with its disorder con only lead to further disorder...so man is doomed to a life of suffering, then.

Yes.

Tom Paine wrote: Or is there some 'way' for us to proceed?

None...except the old (failed!) one of searching and hoping to find a "way" one day.

Tom Paine wrote: Observing oneself....as K often speaks of?Observing the ways of our thinking and actions?

The human mind is incapable of observing without a motive. The failure is doubly ensured if K saying (as goal/motive) is brought in the picture.

Tom Paine wrote: How do we deal with facts that were buried in the unconscious due to condemnation and threats of punishment?

Yes, how...

Clive Elwell wrote: Sudhir Sharma wrote:

but whatever he finds in the end will be his belief/opinion/illusion and not a fact...

C E : Are you saying, Sudhir, that there is no such thing as a fact?

Clive, the term "fact" has value only for the human mind. In actuality the "event/action/happening" is existing (and dying) in the now moment...never ever to be repeated.

Tom Paine wrote: Observing the ways of thought...

Can this be done without effort/will/motive...without concentrating on thought movement within?...Without the hope that eventually such observing will come?

This may be asking too much of the motive oriented mind, Tom!

Tom Paine wrote: No, when the interest and passion(I hesitate to use that word) is there one will look. The interest and passion will carry one beyond oneself...

Tom, as "non violence' is a projection (goal created by thought), similarly aren't interest and passion projections?

Without motive, from where will one get/bring them?

Tom Paine wrote: or at least clear the way for the light of understanding to shine through.

This could be happening if "clear the way for the light of understanding to shine through." was not an influencing factor.

Tom Paine wrote: But the fact of violence is being repeated endlessly! Seeking pleasure and fulfillment too.

The act and the label...which is a fact?

In dealing with or resolving the issues/problems/conflicts in relationships (like fear, anxiety, jealousy, violence, suffering etc.), can the mind act in a way which is not self centered?

Juan Eyegaray wrote: Sudhir Sharma wrote:

Can this be done without effort/will/motive...without concentrating on thought movement within?...Without the hope that eventually such observing will come?

Juan : YES

As the answer is an emphatic "YES", then do tell us what changes in daily living have come about by this "observing without thought"?

Tom Paine wrote: Sudhir Sharma wrote:

Without motive, from where will one get/bring them?

Tom : When one's house is burning, there will be interest. Or to use K's example, if one is faced with a poisonous snake in the room. We are similarly faced with a crisis inwardly and in society. Perhaps as deadly as the snake in the room. But if we're feeling secure in our pleasures and worldly ambitions, then we may not even notice the snake....until we step on it.

S : Convincing explanation/analysis is not the replacement of the needed action/the happening. :)

Clive Elwell wrote: Or is there a seeing (of the limitation of thought) which may be expressed, communicated by thought, but does not originate in thought.

Is it right for someone who has always been wearing colored goggles to inquire about (still wearing goggles) how the world looks without goggles?

Clive Elwell wrote: Sudhir Sharma wrote:

The seeing/understanding of its limits by thought is full of too much impatience to create order in this field.

C E : I am not following this. Where does impatience come in?

S : Impatience is due to the turmoil caused within by the incessantly becoming/acquiring/seeking/reaching/grasping thought movement.

Clive Elwell wrote: The seeing, whether it is by thought or not, of the limitation of thought is a fact here. And this seeing is action.

Well, the inwards fact finding mission has no ending...this is all one can say.

m christani wrote: Fact has reality in the human mind, but also in the world of action

In the world of actions, the act starts and ends. The recording of the act is stored in memory. This memory can have effects/influences on next action and in this way becomes "real".

m christani wrote: If I get drunk at a cocktail party, tell my boss to go to hell and kiss his wife, tomorrow may bring a fact or two from yesterday. In fact maybe quite a few.

Mike, cause effect chain is a story line (psychologically alive) imposed on action to action movement of life. Self, as director, takes highlights in the story as facts. This is his way of ensuring its existence as controller.

Tom Paine wrote: The label points to the fact that I'm violent or afraid

The label is a conventionally acceptable word pointing towards a recognizable pattern of gestures/behavior/facial expressions etc. The part of the brain that comes up with the label never took part in or was seeing/witnessing the real action. hence, all its pointing has no meaning/substance.

Clive Elwell wrote: It is a fact that I started this forum last year

The imprint/image of the action stored in memory and the actual act that took place in the past or is taking place now or may take place in future are of different dimension.

There has to be a clear cut understanding of what we are calling as "self centered activity".

Observing one's surroundings, one decides (as the movement of thought) that there are certain actions that need to be taken to improve one's quality of living and to fulfill one's duties. These fall into functional requirements and thoughts aid in actions that are taken to achieve one's goals.

In addition to above, there is another way one decides the action that need to be taken to perform the required functions.

Instead of observing environment directly, the memories of past experiences come alive inwardly. One becomes conscious of this world of images and knowledge gathered from environment in the past stored in memory. This world appears as real as the surrounding environment to a center/entity that is called self/me/I. This self is the controller/judge/thinker/observer of this world. Thoughts and emotions interact with each other endlessly here and this movement (in nut shell) is the self centered activity that is keeping the self alive.

Feel free to add to this description, please.

Tom Paine wrote: Do you mean to say that the fact of the label(the word fear, for example) interferes in seeing/understanding/perceiving the fact of the action, be it fear, anger, greed?

Why fact of label?

Label is nothing but language...and it can be easily changed by the majority of people using that language.

The fact of action can not be altered in any way once it has occurred as it is never available for any interference by anything. Next action does not change the previous one. Each action is finally and irrevocably completed in itself when it is completed.

Tom Paine wrote: The label carries with it an intrinsic condemnation....judgment, therefore we've already created a distance between 'me' and the fear. We can't observe/understand something that we're actively condemning.

Yes...and there is no other known way available to us to look at fear/pain or pleasure without creating the division of observer and observed.

Tom Paine wrote: If you see that something is destroying you(burning down your house...your whole world)...but you see it's part of you....you have great interest to see exactly how it works, no?

If that something is a part, then what is the rest of you/one/I, Tom?

Clive Elwell wrote: All knowing, psychologically, is a pretence, is it not?

All knowing/experiences, psychologically, is the substance of you/self/I, Clive.

Juan Eyegaray wrote: Perhaps you could tell us how can there be a change when there's no motive (to change)?

We are discussing "observing without thought. All activities in the psychological field are motivated/directional and this is a hindrance in "observing without thought". The self is ready to counteract this with the projected state of "Observing without motive". What the self desires, it achieves, but its achievement does not change conflicts and pain it is encountering in relationships. There is no movement/activity possible in the psychological field without motive, but "enlightened self" that is "observing without thought" will not accept this.

Tom Paine wrote: At the moment of fear, that's what I am....that's all I am....fear.

Thought generated fear (psychological fear) is generated and maintained by thought movement as 'me'. All information/analysis/understanding/solutions regarding this fear are thought based. Looking at this fear without me (its creator) is not possible. As soon as the fear is recognized, the me comes into existence...And if it is not recognized, then is there fear?

m christani wrote: If one can observe these things in oneself without any wanting to change them, wanting to get beyond them, and of course without condemning, justifying, and without labelling the thought/feeling, is such seeing, insight, action without direction?

This question is a self centered activity. It is the self that is putting up this question. It is impossible to avoid next self centered movement of thought/thought induced effort...or is it possible?

The self centered activity is directed towards pursuing pleasure or avoiding pain. It does so in a very selfish manner and this is the reason society condemns it. We are encouraged by society/religion to not indulge in self centered activities and being selfless is praised/applauded.

Such praises sow the seed in our psyche of becoming 'selfless' and to condemn or feel guilty when selfishness is shown to be controlling our behavior/actions.

Then the teachers/gurus come in the picture to show us how to become selfless.

When their teachings fail to achieve desired result (being selfless) in us, some of them advise us to not force a change in our actions, but gain self knowledge. They say observe passively the self centered activities and freedom will be yours.

Those of us who are serious do start an inquiry into this issue of selflessness. There are many pointers given by teachers/gurus and we experiment with them to the best of our ability and understanding. We do have 'experiences' and each of this appears special until the next one comes our way. We feel 'enlightened', but only temporarily.

In the mean time the self centered activities continue to create conflict/confrontations and pain in our lives...And we continue to make efforts to achieve that state of 'selflessness' that the teacher or guru recommended as the ultimate solution of all our worries/fears/sufferings/pains etc.

Despite the appearance of all the new understandings/experiences/insights, the pain and conflicts in relationships persist. The self centered activities go on along with the effort of becoming selfless. The pointers by teachers/gurus/scriptures keep the hopes alive, but constant failures also (as shown by persisting conflicts/pain) keep arising from time to time.

We change guru/teacher, but conflicts/pain show that we are not succeeding in changing the quality of our lives. We get new pointers, but the end result remains the same.

Can pointers by gurus/teachers/scriptures ever succeed in changing the selfish quality of our actions?

Is the goal of 'selflessness' ever achievable by man?

Can self centered activities in man ever end?

Are we, after constant failures, asking these kind of questions of ourselves now?

Clive Elwell wrote: How can you be sure that there is no other way?

This can not be communicated by any means to another.

Clive Elwell wrote: So often, Sudhir, in our interactions, we are in the situation that you know, and I do not know.

Ok.

Clive Elwell wrote: Not knowing, I can inquire into things.

Why do you want to start an inquiry?...The reason for inquiring?

Where will inquiry take you from "not knowing"?