m christani wrote: Fact has reality in the human mind, but also in the world of action

In the world of actions, the act starts and ends. The recording of the act is stored in memory. This memory can have effects/influences on next action and in this way becomes "real".

m christani wrote: If I get drunk at a cocktail party, tell my boss to go to hell and kiss his wife, tomorrow may bring a fact or two from yesterday. In fact maybe quite a few.

Mike, cause effect chain is a story line (psychologically alive) imposed on action to action movement of life. Self, as director, takes highlights in the story as facts. This is his way of ensuring its existence as controller.

Tom Paine wrote: The label points to the fact that I'm violent or afraid

The label is a conventionally acceptable word pointing towards a recognizable pattern of gestures/behavior/facial expressions etc. The part of the brain that comes up with the label never took part in or was seeing/witnessing the real action. hence, all its pointing has no meaning/substance.

Clive Elwell wrote: It is a fact that I started this forum last year

The imprint/image of the action stored in memory and the actual act that took place in the past or is taking place now or may take place in future are of different dimension.

There has to be a clear cut understanding of what we are calling as "self centered activity".

Observing one's surroundings, one decides (as the movement of thought) that there are certain actions that need to be taken to improve one's quality of living and to fulfill one's duties. These fall into functional requirements and thoughts aid in actions that are taken to achieve one's goals.

In addition to above, there is another way one decides the action that need to be taken to perform the required functions.

Instead of observing environment directly, the memories of past experiences come alive inwardly. One becomes conscious of this world of images and knowledge gathered from environment in the past stored in memory. This world appears as real as the surrounding environment to a center/entity that is called self/me/I. This self is the controller/judge/thinker/observer of this world. Thoughts and emotions interact with each other endlessly here and this movement (in nut shell) is the self centered activity that is keeping the self alive.

Feel free to add to this description, please.

Tom Paine wrote: Do you mean to say that the fact of the label(the word fear, for example) interferes in seeing/understanding/perceiving the fact of the action, be it fear, anger, greed?

Why fact of label?

Label is nothing but language...and it can be easily changed by the majority of people using that language.

The fact of action can not be altered in any way once it has occurred as it is never available for any interference by anything. Next action does not change the previous one. Each action is finally and irrevocably completed in itself when it is completed.

Tom Paine wrote: The label carries with it an intrinsic condemnation....judgment, therefore we've already created a distance between 'me' and the fear. We can't observe/understand something that we're actively condemning.

Yes...and there is no other known way available to us to look at fear/pain or pleasure without creating the division of observer and observed.

Tom Paine wrote: If you see that something is destroying you(burning down your house...your whole world)...but you see it's part of you....you have great interest to see exactly how it works, no?

If that something is a part, then what is the rest of you/one/I, Tom?

Clive Elwell wrote: All knowing, psychologically, is a pretence, is it not?

All knowing/experiences, psychologically, is the substance of you/self/I, Clive.

Juan Eyegaray wrote: Perhaps you could tell us how can there be a change when there's no motive (to change)?

We are discussing "observing without thought. All activities in the psychological field are motivated/directional and this is a hindrance in "observing without thought". The self is ready to counteract this with the projected state of "Observing without motive". What the self desires, it achieves, but its achievement does not change conflicts and pain it is encountering in relationships. There is no movement/activity possible in the psychological field without motive, but "enlightened self" that is "observing without thought" will not accept this.

Tom Paine wrote: At the moment of fear, that's what I am....that's all I am....fear.

Thought generated fear (psychological fear) is generated and maintained by thought movement as 'me'. All information/analysis/understanding/solutions regarding this fear are thought based. Looking at this fear without me (its creator) is not possible. As soon as the fear is recognized, the me comes into existence...And if it is not recognized, then is there fear?

m christani wrote: If one can observe these things in oneself without any wanting to change them, wanting to get beyond them, and of course without condemning, justifying, and without labelling the thought/feeling, is such seeing, insight, action without direction?

This question is a self centered activity. It is the self that is putting up this question. It is impossible to avoid next self centered movement of thought/thought induced effort...or is it possible?

The self centered activity is directed towards pursuing pleasure or avoiding pain. It does so in a very selfish manner and this is the reason society condemns it. We are encouraged by society/religion to not indulge in self centered activities and being selfless is praised/applauded.

Such praises sow the seed in our psyche of becoming 'selfless' and to condemn or feel guilty when selfishness is shown to be controlling our behavior/actions.

Then the teachers/gurus come in the picture to show us how to become selfless.

When their teachings fail to achieve desired result (being selfless) in us, some of them advise us to not force a change in our actions, but gain self knowledge. They say observe passively the self centered activities and freedom will be yours.

Those of us who are serious do start an inquiry into this issue of selflessness. There are many pointers given by teachers/gurus and we experiment with them to the best of our ability and understanding. We do have 'experiences' and each of this appears special until the next one comes our way. We feel 'enlightened', but only temporarily.

In the mean time the self centered activities continue to create conflict/confrontations and pain in our lives...And we continue to make efforts to achieve that state of 'selflessness' that the teacher or guru recommended as the ultimate solution of all our worries/fears/sufferings/pains etc.

Despite the appearance of all the new understandings/experiences/insights, the pain and conflicts in relationships persist. The self centered activities go on along with the effort of becoming selfless. The pointers by teachers/gurus/scriptures keep the hopes alive, but constant failures also (as shown by persisting conflicts/pain) keep arising from time to time.

We change guru/teacher, but conflicts/pain show that we are not succeeding in changing the quality of our lives. We get new pointers, but the end result remains the same.

Can pointers by gurus/teachers/scriptures ever succeed in changing the selfish quality of our actions?

Is the goal of 'selflessness' ever achievable by man?

Can self centered activities in man ever end?

Are we, after constant failures, asking these kind of questions of ourselves now?

Clive Elwell wrote: How can you be sure that there is no other way?

This can not be communicated by any means to another.

Clive Elwell wrote: So often, Sudhir, in our interactions, we are in the situation that you know, and I do not know.

Ok.

Clive Elwell wrote: Not knowing, I can inquire into things.

Why do you want to start an inquiry?...The reason for inquiring?

Where will inquiry take you from "not knowing"?