Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Sudhir Sharma's Forum Activity | 2670 posts in 7 forums


Forum: Insights Sat, 14 Nov 2009
Topic: Seriousness

Rasmus Tinning wrote: Maybe this discipline could arise if we could understand that inattention brings sorrow and fear. One has a problem but move away from it through some mental operation ? justification, condemnation, ideation and so on. The problem has not really been solved but suppressed

Our attempt to solve the problem is actually the suppression of the problem.This is done by justification, condemnation, ideation and so on which are all thoughts.

Everything in life is a movement.Understanding is a dynamic process always taking place now. Solving a psychological problem can not be done by "stopping" to analyse it by thought process, but when awareness is moving on letting go all kind of thoughts effortlessly, then the fears and sorrows are always left behind.

Forum: Insights Sun, 15 Nov 2009
Topic: Seriousness

Rasmus Tinning wrote: But Dr.Sharma, what is so special about this? It is easy enough to skip over thoughts you don't like. Superficial people are doing this all the time.

Skipping is choice, an escape.This is in the field of self and will not end conflict (fear, sorrpw, lonliness, pain etc.). On the other hand, the movement of awareness is observing each thought and allowing it to go effortlessly. There is no judgement as 'like' or 'dislike'. It is 'special' because only a simple mind acts in this manner and mind of superficial people is very complicated.

Forum: Insights Mon, 16 Nov 2009
Topic: Seriousness

Galaxy Eh wrote: if you are observing thought effortlessly without understanding and negating ...

If one is observing thought effortlessly, then there is no need to add 'without understanding and negating'. The former state of mind is not possible without understanding and negating.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Mon, 16 Nov 2009
Topic: What is the function of consciousness?

max greene wrote: Or is consciousness nothing more than memory, the record of all that has affected us in life?

Max Sir, I am conscious of my thoughts and they are coming from memory. But I am also conscious of my body,its needs,its sensations.These do not belong to the category of words, images and symbols( memory). So, consciousness can not be only memory. We may have to understand different levels or degrees of consciousness.Those organism that do not have proper nervous system are also interacting with their environment and hence are conscious.

Regards!

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Mon, 16 Nov 2009
Topic: What is the function of consciousness?

Max Sir, some very important points are becoming clearer to me .

max greene wrote: At the moment of thinking, in the act of thinking, you are the act.

Or one can say that there is only the act of thinking? Use of 'you' only confuses the issue.

max greene wrote: All that we know has been created and is therefore already the past. In this sense, all that we know is memory.

I will appreciate a reply as regards to the consciousness of body, its needs,their fulfillment and sensations emanating from body. isn't observing my own body a different act, quality wise, than observing any other body? Could it be possible that higher centres of the brain are not needed for this level of consciousness? What you describe later on as 'observing' is directly showing these (not through memory).

max greene wrote: It would appear that we, as living beings, mostly observe and think. We observe to bring our surroundings in to us, and we store these observations as memories. We think in order to recall these memories and "re-member," or reconstruct (only as an image, of course), the past

So, observing, per se,will be 'formless' , essence of thinking will be'silence' and 'emptiness' could apply to both.Is this right?

max greene wrote: What part does consciousness, a third thing, have in this? Is it only to support and propagate an individual "I"?

Another important question will be 'Why did it become necessary , in the first place, for consciousness to come in to being? What role is it playing in propagation of life?

Thank you very much in staring a very good topic.

Regards !

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Tue, 17 Nov 2009
Topic: What is the function of consciousness?

Max Sir, allow me to summarise what is so far clear to me.

At any moment (Now) man can be in two states.One, observing, acting and thinking( As a living being). Secondly, as individual consciousness when what has been recorded is remembered.It is always the past that can be remembered.

Sir, what is the relationnship between these two channels of existence in man? If consciousness can not touch living movement, then isn't vice-versa also true? If a man could live only in the active present, then what would be his life like? He may be a gainer on some fronts but a loser on others.Then whatever important is deficient in his life, not allowing that deficiency to occure could be the functions consciousness is performing in us. Please throw some light on this.

Another question that arises is 'Why, how and where the energy flow shift from 'living' to 'consciousness' level and the other way around ?Are both the states present in the brain? If you could connect this shifting to 'love' , I will be grateful.

Regard !

Forum: Insights Tue, 17 Nov 2009
Topic: Seriousness

nick carter wrote: Is the self an illusion?

Self is not an illusion for the self-yours or for other person's. The thought, that is knowledge, is transformative at the level of self. What knowledge can not touch and transform is the 'living being' because the two never meet.

Forum: Insights Tue, 17 Nov 2009
Topic: Seriousness

Rasmus Tinning wrote: That is why self-knowledge is so important, if one wants to have a quiet mind.

If one WANTS to have quite mind, will self knowledge really help?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Wed, 18 Nov 2009
Topic: What is the function of consciousness?

Max Sir, please consider the following-

A. Living is the state of action and thinking is an action in 'now' moment.

B. Past can be recalled in to living moment, but only as an image, by thinking. So, this image is actually formed in the active present (now).

C. You have, at other times, emphasised the fact that living moment is ahead or before everything else. If thought is also being formed in the active present, then living moment is ahead of what ? Won't there be nothing that is following it ? Could it be possible that the totallity of energy is flowing in two channels-one superimposed on another ?

After you have responded to this, there is another part of your post I would like to discuss further. Thanks for all the clarifications.

Regards !.

Forum: Insights Wed, 18 Nov 2009
Topic: Seriousness

rajaratnam retnajothy wrote: One thing if one wants to have a quiet mind the mind will not be quiet,because it iis desirous.The other thing one must know what is meant by self knowledge.I think it is self knowing from moment to moment.

Sir, while on the journey of self-knowing from moment to moment, if the mind comes across a desire, then what should it do ? Can this mind be quite ?.

Regards.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Wed, 18 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

phil K wrote: I am not sure I got out of K that he blamed thought for all the problems. I do know that this is what many many K readers blame, but for some reason I never saw this in my understanding of K. If I am missing some quotes, then I would be glad to read them. It seems that K lived more in the right brain world of non thought, but his abilities to communicate was all left brain thought which he was a master of. I do agree the misinterpretation by the general public of what he was saying did cause great problems. My mother tonight, in fact, asked me to tell her a little bit of what K was about and I did. Her immediate response was the typical response of reaction to what I said with her own interpretation and using her own words to throw out the statements I made. I dropped it as not to cause consternation in a person who has enough problems just staying alive.

Phil Sir, the topic was started to discuss 'love' and in your last post the word 'love' has not come even once. I will request you to take charge and turn this in proper direction.

Regards !

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Thu, 19 Nov 2009
Topic: What is the function of consciousness?

Max Sir, This is true that life energy can not split in a way that will show a gap.But is it not possible that the total energy can take different channels without splitting and so,without any gap?

I will take an example.The white light forms seven colour rainbow because of the moisture in the air.Those colours do not show any gaps.It could be that same thing is happening when life energy enters in our brain. The colours are our consciousness (our body too?) and are actually the living energy in different form. All one and existing in the active present.

Regards !

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sat, 21 Nov 2009
Topic: What is the function of consciousness?

max greene wrote: now, the instant moment, always recedes before us. We never reach it, consciously (can't reach it consciously) and yet, there has to be a now. It's there, real, otherwise--we don't exist!

phil K wrote: Two separate acts of memory are operating here while awareness is going on.

Max and Phil Sirs, I am sharing something with you for your consideration. I feel that awareness becoming ready to observe and think is consciousness. With this transformation the awareness becomes useful for the organism. Now observing, thinking,action, feelings etc are all the contents of the consciousness.

The relationship between awareness and consciousness is that of very quite pool surface and the waves that appear when that surface is touched. The surface and waves are not two different, separated entities.There is no gap between the two. The quite surface can get many foci of disturbance at any number of places to produce waves. These waves are existing simultaneousely (not cancelling or disturbing one another), but attentioon could catch only one circle of wave at a time.

All this is happening in the active present where only the life and living is possible.

Please let me know how both of you feel about it.

Regards !

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sat, 21 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Phil Sir, we ordinary human beings exist as body that performs action, has sense organs for collecting informations, the mind with its thinking appratus and feelings ( self ) and the level of existence that comes in to being 'when the self is not, the other is'.

When "love" is operating in a man, wont all these level show some qualitative changes in their sensitivity and efficiency ? Could we take up these changes and keeping an eye on 'love', journey to the state 'when the self is not, the other is' ?

I will also request all the readers to start posting as if a fresh start is being made in this very important topic "LOVE".

Regards !

Forum: Insights Sat, 21 Nov 2009
Topic: Seriousness

RICK LEIN wrote: So to me it's not so much a question of no back and forth, but simply a question of attention, at that moment. It's in this lack of attention, now, that the conditioning manifest.

Yes, sir, movement of attention in the active present illuminating everything that comes before it is the way to dissolve conditioning. The lack of attention will be there, but as soon as the mind understands this inattention, the movement of attention is operating.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sat, 21 Nov 2009
Topic: What is the function of consciousness?

max greene wrote: If this reading is correct, how can consciousness affect the active present, this active present being before, beyond, outside of (however we wish to describe it) that which has already been created--in this case, consciousness?

Max Sir, I am stating that consciousness itself is in active present. Where or what is the need or necessity to bring in an additional 'active present' which is before ,beyond or outside ? If we persist with this ,won't this be supposition, speculation ?

max greene wrote: I note your analogy with the pool and the surface of the pool, but does this analogy hold for sequence, a stream of events?

Sir, the stream is the sequence of events (touching the pool surface-the contents of consciousness ) The pool surface always IS (The living energy)

This way of looking at consciousness is new for me and I am sharing it here for the first time.

Regards !

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sun, 22 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Phil Sir, the problem with what the scientists say about love is that they talk about others or measure chemicals and do not experiment with themselves.

phil K wrote: how can we put a definition on something that may only be answered as we evolve to a new animal without a self, without conditioning and then that man may experience the evolved love. Lets talk about this after that happens.

Sir, defining love may not be right but we should certainly talk about the journey that each one of us is undertaking to find that state. It is quite right to talk about and share your understandings of the journey with others.

I will share with you what different parts of me may consider 'love'.The expression 'I love this...' is usually used for that specific thing in connection with that specific part.

For the sex organs what you do to your partner and what is being done to you to give pleasure to each other during the sex act is 'love' for this system and mind will replace 'sex' word for 'love' very easily and naturally.

For the sense organs,when they come in contact with something that mind finds pleasurable, the person may declare that he 'loves' that thing.Similarly, the body acts and if the activity gives pleasure then one 'falls in love' with that activity.It is not difficult to find examples of all these 'love'. Also when the needs of the body ( hunger,thirst, comfort etc.)are fulfilled to give pleasure and satisfaction, one may start 'loving' these acts of fulfillment.

Now, we come to the internal world of mind.People 'love' to use logic, reasoning powers, analysis etc. effectively ( functions of the left brain ) and are also 'loved' by others for these qualities because these qualities make a man successful in the world.

The right brain people excel in emotinal and artistic fields and easily become the focus of 'love' for many.

In addition to these right and left brain dominated people, there is another category which show 'love' of the universal kind. They talk about love of humanity and sometimes work very sincerely and honestly to for the beniifit of the mankind.

This, in nut shell, is the journey of 'love' in all of us starting from the body and going to the highest level of 'love' a man can attain at the level of the mind. Needless to say that 'self' is operating in all these different kind of 'love'.I will appreciate it very much if you will write a few lines about 'sensitivity' in relation to love at all these levels.

Sir, my point is that we have to talk and discuss all these 'love' to one day understand the 'love' when the self is not. The mind in its ignorance is misinterpreting lots of things as 'love' and the way out of this ignorance is to undertake the inward journey and also to encourage others to do the same. As the insight develops more and more when one is actually undertaking this journey, the understanding about what 'love' is not will come and then one may be blessed by the real 'love'. Understanding of scientific findings and chemical changes helps, but it can never replace the actual journey.

Regards !

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sun, 22 Nov 2009
Topic: What is the function of consciousness?

phil K wrote: The only one I would question is observing which if done purely might be a word that also describes awareness.

Sir, we have to consider two kinds of 'observing' here.One is observing without recognition and the othre is observing with recognition and the later has no element of thought in it.The example goes like this-

I am sitting in a park and a person is walking towards me.If I am looking and taking in the totallity of the park, then that person has no separate significance for me. Next, If I focus on him and take in his whole appearance, his manner of walking etc. I become 'alive' to his presence and please note that my mind is silent up to this point. Next, thoughts come in to inform me about specific details of this person and my liking or disliking for this person.

The first non specific observation is what you may call pure observation but it is of no help to me in understanding of my environment and interacting with it. When the observation becomes 'conscious' I am in touch with my environment and this is also happening in active present.In third case the thought has come to inform me about whatever is in my memory about that person.Now, obviousely the second kind of observation is not taking place but the thought is taking birth in the active present. All these 'actions' are taking place 'now'. Does this remove your objection ?

Regards!

Forum: Insights Wed, 25 Nov 2009
Topic: Seriousness

rajaratnam retnajothy wrote: I am conditioned is a fact.So I know my vision is distorted.So I know I will have to be vigilant.

Rasmus Tinning wrote: If you have seen this so clearly, why have you not transformed? Or is it that you know K says so, but you have not really seen it?

If one sees the 'fact' of something and 'knows' that his vision is distorted, then transformation has occured. Then there is no need to add that one has to be extra vigilant. This statement may show that the knowledge is secondhand, and so, non-transformative.

Forum: General Discussion Wed, 25 Nov 2009
Topic: Thought and the physical.

Allana, here is something you can do as you are reading this.

Close your eyes. Bring your attention to the level of closed eyes. Now intentionally move the 'attention' downwards and you will be able to visualise your body with closed eyes.

Next, bring attention back to the clossed eye level again. This time intentionally move attention upwards. What do you 'see' ? An empty space where thoughts originate ?

I will also ask you to pay attention to blinking of the eyelids. What is the relation between blinking and moving attention to 'body region' and then to 'mind region' ?

Now, what do you think is the relationship between thought and body at energy level ? Keep on experimenting, exploring and observing and you will find all answers first hand.

Welcome to the forums !

Forum: Insights Wed, 02 Dec 2009
Topic: Violence

nick carter wrote: thought never stops to question its own movement, never relents in its compulsive quest for more of the same in modified form. Call it fear, call it greed, call it mindlessness, it doesn't matter. This movement is what we are and it is madness, violence, insanity.

Before the movement of thought leads to violence, it takes one through anxiety, anger, frustation, hate etc. When a person is not able to deal with these emotions, then he resorts to violence.He always has a reason (right or wrong)to opt for violence.

The unwarranted violence is a different matter. What is It's relationship with thought (conditioning) ? Both pleasure and pain generating thoughts have seed of violence hidden in them. Is this kind of violence enevitable because we have devoloped the capacity to think ? Does our belonging to animal kingdom plus our ability to think has something to do with it ?

These are some of the questions we must address to understand this basic, but defective trait of our nature.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Thu, 10 Dec 2009
Topic: What is the function of consciousness?

Phil Sir

Here are certain observation that i have made observing the functioning of my own brain.

1-If I focus my attention on the sound producing machienery {tongue, lips, oral cavity etc.) then I can easily note that they are ready to convert the thought that is currently moving in my mind in to spoken words.(some sort of quivering movement is noticeable in toungue and lips)

2-If I immobilise this machienery intentionally( not allowing that quivering to take place as by pressing the tongue against the roof of the mouth and keeping the lips pressed togather)) then movement of thought stops.

3-The oral cavity is the lowermost place where thoughts can be observed to be arising.Above this, the left and the right parts of brain (head) produce different quality of thoughts.The crown is the top most part of head where thoughts can arise.One can 'see' the space extended infinitely above the head with closed eyes but if a thought is produced then attention has to descend to the level of crown.Similarly, you can visualise the whole body with closed eyes but if thought arises then attention will catch it to be arising in the region of oral cavity.

4- The movement of thoughts can be observed as they arise in the mind and the attention is operating in the same manner as it would operate in the process of listening.

So, the sequence of events goes like this--Sound-biochemical reaction in the brain-understanding of sound as meaningful words and recording of sound as thought in memory -the replay of these thoughts to form words by speech producing system of the body.

A few important questions arise from this. Does sound also has some relationship with emotions as it has with words ? What decides that a particular thought will be stored in the left or right part of brain ?

I have shared my own observations here and they show a strong relationship between thoughts and sound. Your insight in this matter is going to prove very beneficial and I am sure it is going to clear a lot many issues as the discussion proceeds.--Regards.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Thu, 10 Dec 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

phil K wrote: It will also, send that picture at times to the left brain in the form of a visual image (oops my theory...no proof) and the left brain can then use its concept to access the feeling.

Phil Sir, First of all accept our thanks for an excellent summing up of otherwise a difficult topic.

My understanding is this -the right brain can send images to left brain but not the emotional component attached to it.The vice-versa is also true as regards to sending of thoughts with emotions from left to right brain.Here, in both cases the reception will be of very good quality.

If image is sent by right to left brain along with the emotional component, then what is received by left brain will be quite hazy and unclear. Similarly, when left brain transfers thoughts with emotions to right brain, then also the rception is of very poor quality.

In this exchange of concepts and images, the emotional component is supplied and added later on by the receiving brain.This emotional component is generated by the words in left brain (for images sent by right brain) and by image in the right brain( for concepts sent by the left brain).

I will appreciate your valuable comments on my these observations--Regards.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Fri, 11 Dec 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

phil K wrote: First and foremost the left and right brain things I say here are my theories and I have no proof from the research as to the validity of what I say.

Phil Sir, I am trying to share with you what I observe happening within my own brain. This is also a kind of research.I assure you that I do not add or subtract anything from my observation hoping that you will supply the scientific data,if any, connected with what I post.

phil K wrote: I truly doubt that the left and right brain send communication back and forth to each other with emotional content attached.

This is what I have observed, Sir.The communication that has an emotinal content, can not go through.But thoughts of the left brain can go to right and image can come from rigt to left brain.The emotion of the body is interpreted by the left brain in the context of the individual's relationship with the outside environment. The right brain is primarily interpreting the emotion with reference to the welfare of the individual.As regards to sex,in the right brain the images are prominently in the foreground and the thoughts recede in to background.The left brain will make thought prominent and the images are forming the background.

phil K wrote: As an organism, I would say the left brain doesn't want to get punished anymore than the right brain does and so stress is avoided by the left brain using rationalization to the outside world.

Sir,the right brain also helps in dissolvig the stress generated by the concepts of the left brain.It will draw the attention to the bad and harmful effects the problem will bring to 'I' or 'Me' and so,underlines the need to avoid conflict.What left brain does with words to avoid stress, the right brain does by creating and projecting images of 'I' suffering in case the stress is not dissolved.

Sir, what I post here may be incomplete or not very clear.I will request you to look at this both scientifically and at your own experiencing level and take the trouble to make things clearer for me.-Regards.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sat, 12 Dec 2009
Topic: What is the function of consciousness?

phil K wrote: So I came up with thought is sound, but I, also, said that one might consider thought to be pictures which is how the word is sometimes used as when I say I had a thought.

Phil Sir, when you stated in your post that thought is sound, I have been paying closer attention to the origin of thought within myself and I would like to share my observations with all.

Sir, before man could speak properly ( Before language came in to existence),he must have been capable of producing distinct sound to express a particular emotion. This was his way of communicating with others.If the primitive man observed something dangerous, he would shout to alert others.No language was necessary to warn others. So, the sound and memory of this sound was helpful in communicating with others.

The same thing is happening now also.I am observing and getting information about my environment in the active present with the help of my sense organs and also interacting with my environment. I want to share all this with others and I do that by speaking.The memory is supplying the words for my speech.This is possible because we have devoloped language to communicate.

So, sound(speech)is basically used to communicate with others -

a) what one is observing in the active present. Spoken words come from memory. Speech is the verbalisation of thought. The need to communicate to others what one is observing is one reason the thoughts come in to existence.

b) at a later time by recalling the events that have happened earlier from memory.Here also the thoughts stored earlier in memory are verbalised.

c) When observing in the active present (a), if the person has no one near to communicate with, he starts communicating with himself by producing thoughts in the mind. In this way, a natural, useful function of the mind has become a source of wasting energy .This quality is going to cause a lot of problems for the individual as he is now incapable of observing with clarity what is happening in that moment.His awareness is compromised.These self communicating thoughts are also stored in memory and can be retrieved again and again at later time either as thought or as speech.

What I want to point out is this-The thoughts are generated and stored in the mind to produce speech ( sound) that helps us in communicating with others.To my mind ,they are the precursor of sound(speech) and not the product of sound.

Observing and commenting on what is being observed to communicate with others is necessary.But if speaking is not going on, then the person is communicating with himself by forming thoughts which can become spoken words later on. So,are they sound or precursor of sound ? You will have to throw some light on this issue, Phil Sir.--Regards.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sun, 13 Dec 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

Phil Sir, today I would like to share with you the interconnection that my brain has with its different areas.Let me start with pure observation of what is happening in the active present in environment. Information of my environment is reaching to me by my sense organs and they function in the 'now' moment.I am also performing action with my limbs and this is also happening now.If I want to, then I can describe the sensory input and my action to another and speech is also taking place now.

Sir, pure observation is possible at two levels.The first is the level of eyes ( as if the attention is flowing outwards through eyes).In this mode of observation the images are getting recorded in right brain and words of description(as thoughts) in the left brain.These words can become speech in the same moment and also later on.The image of the right brain can be commented upon by the left brain if attention moves from right to left brain area.What should this be called ?The comments of left brain are to the point.So are the two halves connected or perform separately but in tune with eachother ?

Pure observation is also possible from occipetal area. The difference between the two modes is that left brain is not able to comment on what is being observed and stays quite.So, what is being observed is not recognised and has no name.When observation is over,the image of what has been observed is formed both in occipetal and right brain area.If one is seeing image of the right brain with closed eyes, then left brain will immediately start commenting on it.If occipetal area image is being seen with closed eyes, then left brain stays quite.

One important observation I want to share here.The shifting of attention from one area to other is always preceded by blinking of the eyes.Without blinking, the shifting doesn't appear possible.It appears that with blinking all the circuits within the brain come to standstill and then revive to make it possible for attention to shift from A to B area.

How the right brain is helping in dissolving the stress of left brain, this I will share with you in my next post.I want to thank you for your valuable comments.--Regards.

Forum: Insights Mon, 14 Dec 2009
Topic: Theosophy Revisited

Patricia Hemingway wrote: The truth K pointed towards cannot be approached with any conditioning still active.

Can truth be approached without any conditioning or IT IS and so unapproachable?-Regards.

Forum: Insights Mon, 14 Dec 2009
Topic: Theosophy Revisited

Patricia Hemingway wrote: Throw out all sacred teachings and see humanity for what it is now - knowing that one is part of all this mess.

Won't 'throwing out' be a reaction and will obstruct seeing clearly ? To negate something, 'dropping' will be better or throwing ?

It is really difficult to understand that insecurity of living with awareness is very 'secure' as the movement of life is taking care of you.

Forum: Insights Tue, 15 Dec 2009
Topic: Theosophy Revisited

Patricia Hemingway wrote: just 'let it all go' and stand completely alone without any belief system for psychological support.

Only important thing to understand in this is-standing alone is a living state only for a moment(now) and is inclusive of 'let it all go'. Is this correct ?-Regards.

Forum: Insights Tue, 15 Dec 2009
Topic: Theosophy Revisited

Dappling Light wrote: There is no K without what K was before his enlightenment.

I would like to say that it is the other way around.Enlightened K was possible only because he had no psychological resemblence and relationship to what he was in earlier days. His words and life style may have appeared influenced by his earlier experiences, but the quality of mind that was operating in later years must have been active in a totally different dimension.- Regards.