Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Yiming Zhang's Forum Activity | 116 posts in 3 forums


Forum: Show 'n' Tell Tue, 16 Jun 2009
Topic: Ground

I think a permanent absolute ground exists and we have to find it.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Tue, 16 Jun 2009
Topic: Paths

What do you mean by a path? Can you clarify?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Tue, 16 Jun 2009
Topic: Self

How long have you been pondering about the self? I started doing this when I asked myself, "how come there is a 'me'?" at the age of ten.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Tue, 16 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

To me, meditation is reflection on questions about life that bother me. For example, "How come we are ashamed of our nakedness and wear clothes?" or "Why are we so much like animals (having eyes and ears, arms and legs, heart and lungs) and yet see ourselves as human beings?" Just the other day, I was at the riding club and saw Mrs. Schoon on her horse. Suddenly, it occured to me that it was one animal riding atop another. It was quite funny.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Tue, 16 Jun 2009
Topic: Ground

A hunch, Keshni. Maybe, woman's intuition, in the case of rachMiel.

And it has nothing to do with K or Bohm but it's comforting to know there are two more out there who share our gut-feel that this amazing reality has no basis.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Tue, 16 Jun 2009
Topic: Ground

Sorry, what I meant was that this amazing reality does have a basis.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Tue, 16 Jun 2009
Topic: Ground

Yes, rachMiel, dropping of veils. Like the way it's done in a belly dance of the seven veils?

My fear is, what happens if we die before the seventh veil falls?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: Ground

then you've still got some work left to do on the other side. :-)

Sorry, my dear. There is no other side.

What makes you think there is "the other side"? Tell me. I will keep an open mind and listen to what you have to say.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: Paths

time/expectation/anticipation are all brought into the equation. the hope of 'becoming' something different/better. all of us krishnamurti students know the flagrant dangers of this kind of equation. but ... again ... my intuition is that the path itself unravels and the following of it becomes effortless at some point.

Becoming something better seems to suggest discontent with the status quo. If this is true in your case, then I share this state of discontent. It is this feeling of discontent, a feeling of unhappiness or emptiness within or despair with the state of our world without, that makes us seek something different/better.

Are we on the same page, rachMiel? Am I saying something that you feel too? If not, then tell me what makes you hope of becoming something different/better.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: Self

rachMiel ... wrote: only recently (within the last few years) have i been able to (somewhat) calmly and dispassionately consider the nature of my self. and when things start to unravel, as they are wont to do when one looks hard into what constitutes a self, i still sometimes get freaked out. but 'the Truth shall set me free' ... at least i sure HOPE so! ;-)

So, only recently you have felt confident enough to inquire, to open the black box and peer inside. Scary and yet fun. Especially when we are doing it together. And doing it together, it won't be as scary. Yes?

I am curious. Why do you want to look into that "black box"? If the "self", you relied on, got you through intact, why didn't you keep going? What caused you to inquire?

(If my questions are too invasive, please let me know. I don't mean to pry.)

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

Does meditation have any practical value? Working for a living has practical value because we need food, clothing and shelter. Breathing has a practical value for if we don't breathe, we die. If we don't meditate, will we also die?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Thu, 18 Jun 2009
Topic: Ground

Ramesh G wrote: Linda, well said. That's great feeling.

You really think Linda's position is correct? Sorry, but that sounds like a cop out to me. Forgive me for the language. I don't mean to be rude.

Linda is afraid of conflict between my truth and your truth as is being played out in our world of wars and much hatred. To avoid conflict, Linda suggests that we all chase butterflies and rainbows instead. That's well and good for Linda and you. I would like to join you too if you can also convince all the rest of the folks with the guns and machettes out there in our world to drop their truths.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Thu, 18 Jun 2009
Topic: Ground

rachMiel ... wrote: i can't know for a 'fact' that there is an other side. and i can't know that there isn't. i'm just keeping my options open, that's all. ;-)

If you admit faith (which is the same as keeping options open), then your search for the truth will be compromised by beliefs. This would corrupt your integrity. The permanent ground that you seek is you where no untruth can find refuge.

To put it simply, the reason why we look for a better world is because there is no one in this damn world that you can really trust.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Thu, 18 Jun 2009
Topic: Paths

rachMiel ... wrote: pleasure bunny wants pleasure, (en)joy(ment), happiness ALL THE TIME. my 'hope' (desire to become) is to move towards 24/7 pleasure/joy/happiness. truth seeker wants to know and LIVE IN the Truth. my 'hope' is to move towards this.

Wanting pleasure is the same as avoiding pain. If you look at our lives as human beings, there is this constant running away from depression. We do this through a craving for stimulation - either physical or mental. We call this stimulation happiness or joy or pleasure and it invariably requires effort and cost money.

Writing like this to you is meditation and it gives me much pleasure (otherwise, I wouldn't be doing it). Am I stimulating myself? I wonder.

What do you think? Actually, I am alluding to the fact that it is unhappiness, a state of insecurity or depression that comes with being a person, that drives us on a path to becoming better, to find permanent ground, to find ultimate reality/truth. If you don't agree, then tell me how you see it.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Thu, 18 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

jean-m girard wrote: How did this idea of (Dieing if we don?t medidated) came to you?

I just don't want to waste my life committed to some hobby or pastime or, worse still, unwholesome cult-like pre-occupation. Animals don't meditate or need to be taught a better way to live through better understanding of what they are. And they do fine.

I am not saying that we don't need to learn. I am just wondering if this learning that K talked about is critical to my survival as a human being. What do you think.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Thu, 18 Jun 2009
Topic: Self

rachMiel ... wrote: two things. 1. being relatively 'intact' eventually got kinda boring and sad; i wanted more. 2. i reached a point of desperation in my personal psycho-emotional life; something was obviously very awry. so i started reading eastern philosophy, which is where i first encountered exploration of the ego/self.

So, you got bored about being mother/wife/whatever and living successfully day after day being that. This remind me of that movie called "Bridges of Madison County" starring Meryl Streep and Clint Eastwood. Were you bored like that Meryl character (Franscesca) whose life was 'intact' ?

What was that something that was 'obviously very awry'? Maybe 'the self essence that is REAL' is hidden somewhere in the 'personal hi-stories'. You want to dig into it? I have a hunch that it is in there somewhere.

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Fri, 19 Jun 2009
Topic: Meditation / Awareness

Richard Kover wrote: Is a "human being" - emphasis on the being - just surviving for the short term gain, or seeing the limits of learning, seeing the learning of which K spoke (perceiving) as the only way for the human race to survive in an ultimate sense before "mankind" destroys itself and the planet?

I see your point. Of course, it is sensible to care not only about planetary survival but also to live in a non-polluting, self-sustaining way. It is not just Krishnamurti who cares about this, every mother's son does too not to mention Greenpeace. I do my part also just as you must be doing too.

But what is so critical about learning the K way? Cab I devote my life to learning the Rudolf Steiner way?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Sun, 21 Jun 2009
Topic: Ground

Linda Thorlakson wrote: Actually, Yiming, my fear is that if I believe my truth to be the one and only absolute truth, then I may feel compelled to force my truth upon you (for your own good, of course) or to fight you (if I feel that you are trying to force your's on me).

I understand you completely. Obviously, it isn't socially gracious to impose one's view on another; also, it is obnoxious behavior to get upset in discussion with other people who don't share the same values or perception. Simply put, it is plain bad manners.

If, however, I do not become attached to the idea that there is only one truth (or to the idea that it needs to endure beyond the present moment), this allows me to be open to the idea that you and I, as individuals, can coexist peacefully regardless of our differences.

What you say here is reasonable and very civilized. But I doubt if peaceful co-existence is possible unless you are talking about living side by side in separate worlds and not go beyond casual niceties and small talk. For example, living in the privacy of your apartment within a condo complex. You don't even have to know your neighbor let alone be impacted by his lifestyle or point of view.

The idea of ending war is so overwhelming to me that I wouldn't have a clue where to begin. But . . . the idea that you and I can see the world very differently and live our lives very differently, and yet, exist peacefully side-by-side (possibly even supporting and encouraging one another in understanding ourselves and the world around us even when our understandings are different) . . . well . . . maybe this is where to begin to end war.

There are many societies in which people of different religions and ethnic cultures live peacefully. America has this multi-cultural setting. Europe too.

To me, it doesn't so much matter whether we agree that the nature of the truth is fleeting or enduring. What matters to me is that it not matter to me whether you agree with me or not.

This is all well and good, Linda. So why not go to a bingo hall or rock concert? Nobody there cares what your ideas are because everyone just want to party and have a good time. This forum is about a man called Krishnamurti who devoted his whole life to pointing out that there is only one truth, no second; and he wanted us to put our heart into it and find out because that is the only way to end human conflict. Do you feel that I am forcing this viewpoint on you?

Forum: Show 'n' Tell Sun, 21 Jun 2009
Topic: Ground

Linda Thorlakson wrote: This is so interesting, Yiming, because your understanding of K is not at all mine. While your understanding of K's talks is that there is only one truth, mine is that the very idea that there is only one truth is at the root of all of our conflicts.

I wonder why my understanding of K is not at all yours. Even my dog and I see eye to eye effortlessly. Most of the times, he knows what I want, and I find him quite predictable in his expectations and that make life practically conflict-free. I suppose humans are not as simple and more complicated to get along with. By the way, it wasn't K who said that there was only one truth. It occurred to me, last night, that a buddhist scholar said that while in dialogue with him at Brockwood Park. Sorry for the mistake.

That's OK, though. It's not necessary that we agree on our understanding of K's talks. It's just important that we listen to what he has to say and go into it for ourselves.

So, we go into K's talks and it doesn't matter at all if we come away with totally different takes on what that guy said? You must have majored in liberal arts and went on through life living off your daddy's money. I wasn't that lucky. I studied engineering and went on through life building up my own assets. In my world, I have to get things right first time everytime or I would end up with a tin cup at the street corner asking you for change.

Of course, I suppose you could say that, through my denial of the existence of a one-and-only truth, I am merely substituting my own one-and-only-truth (that the truth is different from one person to the next and from one circumstance to the next) for your's. Were you to say that, I might have to agree.

You are right on the money here, honey. You have been quite insistent on telling me that truth is a many spendoured thing.

In any case, whether we agree or not . . . our exchange most definitely addresses the topic of this forum (whether we understand the truth to be ultimate and unchanging or not).

Avoiding conflict seems to be the rigid, unchanging principle driving your argument. And I am a naughty dog who just won't let go of your bone.

Have a good life and be safe, Linda.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sun, 28 Jun 2009
Topic: Time

phil K wrote: In doing what I just did, I understood psychological time, but I dare say a few moments from now I wont understand it. In keeping with the goal of this forum, I cant figure out what is going on in the brain that causes this to happen either i.e. what causes the brain to have the illusion of movement which is not there? Maybe the very fact that I cant understand the term psychological time has to do with it? Great topic!

What is the difference between psychological time, as you explained it (past=memory; future=imagination), and chronological or physical time as measured by the clock?

Forum: Serious Debate Mon, 29 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Terrence Webster-Doyle wrote: I have apparently been ?banned? from the KFA Forum site in that I posted there the same posting I started out with here on Kinfonet about the Oak Grove School. My only desire there and here is to create an intelligent dialogue about the education of young people in understanding conditioning thinking, the main reason why I joined the Oak Grove School in 1984 and to give serious attention as to whether this school is actually fulfilling this intent or not.

Both you and David Loucks have much to say that is significant and pertinent to the study of Krishnamurti mainly because you two were there with the old man when he was alive. I know it is hard to get through the irrelevant chatter from others that needs to be moderated or directed elsewhere. I hope you and David would stay on the topic and keep it going. How about learning perseverance from Krishnamurti? He kept going for 60 years without being discouraged by the lack of results. The fact that his Foundations and schools have been hijacked should spur you two on instead of giving up on the old man's mission.

I share your perception about the K schools inappropriate set up to bring about the kind of learning that K talked about. I am sure Krishnamurti would have listened to you had he not died so soon after getting you on board. But there were others in the KFA who were pulling in another direction. You shouldn't be discouraged by the lack of receptivity then and now. You can rekindle the flame that drew you to Krishnamurti back in 1984.

What do you say?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Mon, 29 Jun 2009
Topic: Time

phil K wrote: If, however, in the meantinme, you can find a statement by K where he explained it clear enough for you to understand it, I would appreciate your posting it.

How about a statement by me where I explain it clear enough for you to understand? Will that cut it?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Mon, 29 Jun 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

Robert Michael wrote: My question here would be: if there is real physical and chemical damage to the brain as Bohm observes and Krishnamurti seems to agree with; is it possible that the damage may be permanent or irreversable?

Whose brain are you referring to? Are you talking about the human brain in general? If you are, what makes you think that it is damaged?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Mon, 29 Jun 2009
Topic: Time

phil K wrote: Bring it on!

I read your private message to me. I don't mean to disrupt your classroom. It's just my style. When the self is hurt, communication ends. And since you cannot bring yourself to ban me, I will leave.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Mon, 29 Jun 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

Robert Michael wrote: Lastly, I would pose another question here. Can an irreparably damaged brain know or be fully aware that it is in such a state?

But you did not answer my question. What makes you think that the human brain is damaged? Since you are referring to specific individual human brains, how about mine? What makes you say that my brain is damaged?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Mon, 29 Jun 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

Robert Michael wrote: I never said that your brain was damaged, Yiming.

But is my brain damaged?

You said: "I feel it takes a finely-formed and sensitive brain in order to first realize that it is indeed sound."

Are you able to realize that your brain is sound? If you are able to, then can you say whether or not my brain is damaged?

Forum: Serious Debate Wed, 01 Jul 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Eve Goodmon wrote: I hope you have not yet resigned Terrence, can you imagine if K had resigned because none of us got it? He spoke for sixty years and I am not sure he was happy with the results. I totally agree and support your effort to start a school and a teacher training program. I would be interested in participating in such a venture. Please keep me posted. Eve

How would you participate, Eve? You realize that Terrence have been trying to work with the KFA to build on what Krishnamurti had started. As his attempts had not been well received at the KFA, he is now reaching out to others who might see his point of view which I want to review in depth.

Why do you think that the KFA is not doing it right? What is it about Terrence's approach to starting a new school that merits our support? Is there any value in pushing for the adoption of Terrence's idea at the KFA? Krishnamurti had spent a whole life building the Foundations and the Schools. It would be good if we could join Terrence in his effort to resolve differences with the KFA and turn that movement around if at all possible. If that's not possible, then we may have to start from scratch to do what we feel is right.

I am in Japan now on the way to Singapore and have not been able to respond to Terrence in a well thought out way. I would appreciate your views (on every aspect of this matter) which would be taken into account when I prepare my reply to Terrence.

Forum: Serious Debate Fri, 03 Jul 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Hi Eve, (I am not the Dr. Zhang you met.) I do appreciate your responses on this topic and they are helpful to me in identifying the fundamental issues that must be addressed in the course of moving forward with Terrence's initiative on education. Some of those issues have been raised by you below and I would like to explore them further with you.

Eve Goodmon wrote: K once said "you don't need to be Edison to turn on the light switch' . K tore it down for more than sixty years. Now the schools that were born out of the organization with his name in it have the responsibility to keep breaking things down rather than worry at about what the parents think, accreditation and money.

You raised a valid point here. The K schools in Ojai, Brockwood Park and in India were up and running for quite a while under Krishnamurti's watch. Surely, he would have seen the need to "break things down" as you have put it without worry of accreditation in order to sell his brand of education to wordly parents. What do you make of that? Terrence was there at Oak Grove school in 1984 before K died. Perhaps, he could throw some light on this question as well.

If they did the tearing down and confronting things head on, the school will be a poor and small school without all the trappings of what success may mean. The problem is when you take this kind of action, everyone gets very nervous the Master and Sage is dead and there is not one to tell us if this is right or wrong should we do this or that?.The ego is fully in control.

K's attitude, from what I have read, was always to move ahead with what he wanted to do and damn the consequences. In other words, act without fear. You sound like someone who sees the value of such an approach to dealing with life's issues. I am inclined to think that the KFA saw their way around the fear, an option that Terrence couldn't accept. Are you thinking the same thing too and that is why you resonated to his call for action?

No one is really interested in changing this status quo but only decorating it and making it fit into some kind of concept that is marketable to the masses that are interested in playing with this stuff cause it is fashionable and KOOL. We have all the information and the books but we don?t have what it takes to put our selves out there and say ?tear it all down? and keep the flame alive. We don?t need the master and the sage we can do this all by our selves and most importantly it is time.

Quite right, in principle. However, we need to discuss this more to make sure that - when we implement Terrence's initiative - we all are tearing down the same things together and not end up with Terrence on one side, and you and I on the other, treating him the way KFA did. That would be horrible.

I am not at all sure that what Terrence wants to do is the RIGHT thing, he maybe too much part of the establishment also. But what he saw was the results of what the establishment does ones it organizes the teachings and MAYBE only maybe he will not fall into to the same traps.

Now you are talking. Your willingness to sign on to Terrence's project sight unseen caused me to ponder. If you are not sure, how could you jump into his bandwagon? Although I would consider your uncertainty about Terrence fair and reasonable, I would rather give him the benefit of any doubt and prefer to see him as much a revolutionary as K (and you and I) and feel that he can clarify what exactly it is that he wants to do. I think it is important that we make sure that we are all driven by the same flame that fired up Krishnamurti and are not ganging up on a cause fueled by anti-KFA sentiment.

Excellence in educations has nothing to do with all the accreditation process. Excellence is a result much like happiness, a result of right living. With care and attention excellence is just like truth, we don?t have to search for it. It is. But I doubt that anyone is interested in doing this....

I am interested. You touch on an important point here: right living.

Isn't right living the whole point to education? If we are living right, then our way of life becomes the teaching of our young. Correct?

What is your take on our way of life? The nuclear family. Working at the office or plant or farm for a living. Am I getting away from Terrence's topic?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Fri, 03 Jul 2009
Topic: Time

farha naaz wrote: Is there anything like psychological time? Does it really exist in our minds? Can't it be another delusion we are trying to deceive ourselves with?

Hi farha, I don't know why K introduced this idea of psychological time which, I don't think exists at all the way we perceive chronological time to exist. By creating this idea of psychological time, I feel, K has confused me for a while until I decided to reject it entirely.

Yesterday, today, tomorrow or past present, future is the way we refer to chronological time as "measured" by the clock. Even this aspect of time is an illusion. Naturally, no technical professional, sailor or airline pilot would accept this.

However, if you don't think I am crazy and want me to show you why I see chronological time as illusory, I would be more than happy to explain.

Cheers.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Fri, 03 Jul 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti and Bohm on the Physical Brain.....

Robert Michael wrote: Do you feel you are a sensitive person, Yiming? Let's say, do you suffer or feel uncomfortable in certain situations or upon seeing human injustices and cruelty around you that most others seem to be totally oblivious to or are quite 'happy' in?

Sorry for not responding sooner.

I am certain that everyone - including me - to whom you pose this question would tell you that they are able to see cruelty that others around them are insensitive to. But that, to me, doesn't prove that I am more sensitive and therefore have a brain that's not damaged or as damaged as others.

Imagine this. You ask a thousand people all assembled before you if any of them feel that he is more sensitive than other people and they all answer in perfect unision: "Yes, I am more sensitive than the others around me."

What does that prove?