Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Prasanna P's Forum Activity | 430 posts in 7 forums


Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Fri, 13 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Robert Michael wrote: And my final thought here is that I continue to remain in full agreement with K's observation, that he made near the end of his days, that, "probably love has totally disappeared from this world." ('K to Himself: His Last Journal' - 1983).

Yes, and please remain so consistently at least for some time. Further, K's works have to be taken in totality, and not the often tongue in cheek statements that he made.

While remaining ever-hopeful that I can be truly instrumental in bringing the Light of Love and Understanding into our dark and decaying world.

Yes. Bob, the 'I' in you can be truly instrumental, only if it can get rid of its oscillations and become poised and stoic.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Fri, 13 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Phil, your posting is encouraging and appears to be promising to bring out better revelations from other participants, if there is no rigidity on anybody's part.

phil K wrote: I think we all don't want to end up like K and have no effect on the world in general and maybe die frustrated as he must have.

If I may, I would like to say that K didn't die frustrated, as he had no misery or sorrow. He merely expressed his disappointment intellectually, about others becoming like him, during his life time. All great teachers including K had the same natural or free state of mind, but failed in their expressions to liberate mankind. Of course, K was much better than others in intellectual expression.

Just because K failed in his expressions and also expressed his disappointment, we can't say, we don't want to be like him. It could still be great. Because, in that state, we would all be normal, though we would be doing our best to save the world and mankind just like K. One may not be able to free others, unless one is free. Isn't it so ?

Then we may realize, what is needed is the understanding that the human brain is nothing more than a biological machine. As every machine, it has its principles for its effortless and optimum functioning. When the unraveling of it is done, it is obvious that the mind has returned to its normal state and all its characteristics can be termed as love, affection, responsibility, understanding et all.

I think only those, who become free by volition, can prepare an intellectual road map for the protection of freedom in children and returning to normal state by adults. Those who became free suddenly or without asking for it, may not be able to do much for others. Perhaps K too didn't have any idea of freedom, before he became free. What do you think?

Let every one give their point of view on the subject, rather than condemning the message or the messenger.

Phil: we have to remember that in progressive society, children do need to be potty trained and we have to extend that to learning a career, then how do we who are conditioned in varying degrees rear a child to be free from conditioning.

Phil, if you ponder on this point, you would see that the problem is with the user or 'I', and not the knowledge. Merely, if the 'I' in children is left to grow on its own, without external extreme handling, the stability of 'I' naturally remains.

Haven't we seen reasonably stable individuals amongst us and outside ? If we come to know what could be the error in upbringing responsible for conditioning, then elders can easily avoid that error.

Elders' conditionings don't pass on to children either genetically or by imitation. Conditioning is merely an intellectual escape from staying with reality.

Forum: Awareness in our world today Sat, 14 Nov 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti's mentioned order cqn be new order

Randal Shacklett wrote: Can we have a new order in the world, as long as the mind is dis-ordered? Isn't the old world order, simply a reflection of humanities insanity?

All presently available orders are merely intellectual. What is require is the actual order, which is in nature, which has to dawn in our minds. When the 'dis' goes off in the disorder, naturally the order remains. We can't abandon our objective of bringing order, by merely saying that we are in disorder and hence whatever we do will be adding to disorder only.

It is possible by the 'disorderly mind' to bring order not by addition, but by subtraction. Presently, each addition is increasing the disorder, as follows. disorder in the world + disorderly action = increased disorder. Whereas it is different here below.

disorderly world - disorder in our own mind = order in the world. Because the order in the world is comprised of both 'what is' and 'what is being perceived by the disorderly mind, which are presently different. Since the second or latter is (emotionally perceived to be) different, responses are adding to further disorder. When both are same, the responses will not add, but end the situations of disorder.

At the outset, it looks ridiculous, but on second look, it may make some sense.

Forum: Awareness in our world today Sat, 14 Nov 2009
Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves?

Krishnan Srinivasan wrote: Is it not time to think over the population Exploison? Is it not high time we all become vegetarians as well as consume less energy & resources?....

Krish, in a recent marriage function that I attended, nearly a thousand guests were sitting comfortably in the choultry. When a friend asked me the same question, I pointed out how come so many people are comfortably sitting in this space. He replied that people are sitting quietly because the because the choultry is comfortable. My next question was, similarly can't we make this world comfortable for all of us.

According to me, non-vegetarianism, population explosion and other innumerable problems of mankind are merely the results of a disorder in the mind. Instead of removing each problem, perhaps it is easier to focus on the disorder of the mind. What do you think?

Forum: Awareness in our world today Sat, 14 Nov 2009
Topic: Is vegetarianism a must for saving the world and ourselves?

Paul Lanzon wrote: I hesitate to judge the aboriginal people of Australia, who do eat animals

Yes. You can't judge them, since they're aboriginals, not the so called 'civilized' like us!

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Mon, 16 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Therese Okamoto wrote: As I see it, the transformation JK encourages will come when we unlearn punishment and return to the learning mind.

I liked it. Is it also not important to know, how physical hurts affect the mind ?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Mon, 16 Nov 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

phil K wrote: I would ask that we wait until the video as it is not just Robert Burton but other people including a foundation member who speaks. Also, there is apparently a lot of responses, discussion, and questions which might flavor our discussion.

Yes. Phil, I do appreciate your drive. The endeavor is to bring an intellectual explanation about the state of mind of K, which can at least be logically understood by those, who do not have the mind like that of K. Is it right ?

Forum: Awareness in our world today Mon, 16 Nov 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti's mentioned order cqn be new order

gb, thanks for this. I couldn't get hold of it, as I was pre occupied on something else. Can you give some excerpts on it ?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Tue, 17 Nov 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

phil K wrote: Actually, Dr. Burton knew very little about K until that day and Steen is secretary of the board.

Yes. You had obtained this information from him, even before his speech.

I think their direction is to go where I am going and that is add to ones own ability to make change and not to explain K's mind.

Fine. Can you elaborate on this ?

The discussions during the taping were in that direction and the dialogue with 18 people afterwards which was not taped was to that affect.

Fine. Even after innumerable discussions, generally people are finally back at where they started. However, I hope it won't happen this time. I am interested to know the views of those 18 people, of course if they are also interested.

I have never seen the foundation try to explain K's mind but instead conduct dialogues for people to make the change themselves.

I think, I had said this before. Foundation can't deviate from its course.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Tue, 17 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Indisputably, K overtook all other great teachers, when he narrowed down his search for truth and concluded that it is the human mind that is in 'problem'. Undoubtedly it was a great leap for mankind, when he identified the real aberration as the 'vagaries of thoughts'.

However, when he unwittingly began blaming 'thought' as the origin of human problems, all his serious readers were unknowingly put on a wrong track, thereby losing their first invaluable chance to successfully conclude or wrap up the great human search for truth. Blaming the 'thought' was like catching a puppet by leaving the master mind behind it to go scotfree. This, according to me, unfortunately hindered all readers to understand K's teachings as well as the process of the mind itself.

Thought is no more than a fleeting volatile image, which the 'I' constantly produces as well as experiences. Same thought can reappear continuously, since each thought can't last more than a moment.

It is the 'I' that is conditioned that too merely intellectually, yet neither always, nor in all intellectual areas. It is conditioned in specific intellectual areas only, wherein it can't easily change to a new, contesting or a challenging idea or thought, even if it is real or factual. For instance, generally one can't deny, question or change one's god, religion, guru or any concept, when one is conditioned or taking pleasure or diversion from it.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Wed, 18 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Prasanna P wrote: Indisputably, K overtook all other great teachers, when he narrowed down his search for truth and concluded that it is the human mind that is in 'problem'. he unwittingly began blaming 'thought' as the origin of human problems ...

Phil: If I am missing some quotes, then I would be glad to read them.

Hope Bob will kindly help us locate K's thoughts on 'thought'

Phil: I do agree the misinterpretation by the general public of what he was saying did cause great problems.

I would like to see some such instances.

Phil: It seems that K lived more in the right brain world of non thought, but his abilities to communicate was all left brain thought which he was a master of.

Wasn't it enough for K? Can you also tell whether there is an exact proportion in which one should live between the left and the right brains to have the right balance in life ? ;-)

I dropped it as not to cause consternation in a person who has enough problems just staying alive.

I think, You did the right thing.

Btw, do you know where i can see the text of Burton's speech at KFA ? Did your friend post it on ning?

As an aside, recently I had an opportunity to be at one of the celebrations of a national science academy, where some distinguished scientists of other countries also made their presentations. Most scientists had gone so very deep into their subject, that they seemed to have almost lost touch with the non-intellectual world.

Finally, the great humanist and ex BBC india bureau chief, Sir Mark Tully in his valedictory address caused a sort of anti climax stating "Do not dismiss religion and believe in the traditional wisdom of science. ...." He further added, "scientists believe that the problems created by climate change can be solved. But if we only believe in science, it will lead to imbalance in the world." He muttered that Science limits human perception.

According to me, Science is the collection of perceptions of the hidden and unknown secrets of nature that are reasonable, provable, verifiable and even replicable. Whereas Religions are primarily collections of stories of extreme and comparative behaviors of people coupled with advices to imitate and practice the morals from those lessons. However unwittingly, as almost always, religion had won over science, that too conspicuously on the latter's home pitch.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Thu, 19 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

phil K wrote: There, Sudhir...I used the word "love" twice in this post...lol

To be fully attentive on anything is to love it, irrespective of using the word 'love' often to show it.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Thu, 19 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Therese Okamoto wrote: hurt hurts and it doesnt have to be physical either

Do you mean to say that both hurts are same ?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Thu, 19 Nov 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

phil K wrote: so I will go still with all conditioning is bad

A conditioned brain cannot find out anything. A conditioned brain will only regurgitate its own conditioning - whatever it may be.

My question to Pat and Phil: Is it possible for a fully conditioned mind to come here ? Isn't it necessary to be at least partially free to come and discuss in this forum ? What do you think about your selves ? fully or partly conditioned ?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Thu, 19 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Prasanna P: Do you mean to say that both hurts are same ?

Therese Okamoto : every hurt is as painful as it is, idnit?

Yet, aren't they different ? As I understand, Physical Hurt is pain inflicted on the body. Psychological Hurt is the misery perceived in the mind. What do you think?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Thu, 19 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Hope Bob will kindly help us locate K's thoughts on 'thought'

Instead of the above, you have given Shainberg's thoughts. Sorry for bothering you.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Fri, 20 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Robert Michael wrote: It was no bother at all, Prasanna.

Still I look forward for those which I requested you to give.

I feel I'm in that stage that K was later in his life (1961) when he wrote his 'Notebook'. Wherein he spoke of the continuing purification of his brain. I too am presently experiencing this process and the deep heartfelt joy that accompanies it.

Of course, I see a lot of improvement in your expressions in the last 5 years or so. But, you don't seem to have matched my speed. It appear to me that K's expressions of 1961were much more clear and consistent than that of yours now. However, I still see some hopes on you and Phil. Rest don't appear to be as serious.

More than 'heartfelt joy', what may be important to note is that one's present perceptions and responses are clearly better than before, when some change for transformation takes place. This becomes clear when others begin to comment about you. Also you will also be flexible to understand, adopt and even correct your actions, if and when others point out or if you yourself may find out at any time.

However, apart from it, there seems no way to compare because the 'I' goes on changing or improving in its stability.

Anyway, what do you think of Shainberg's thoughts or feelings on K, Prasanna? Personally, I don't think Shainberg experienced being in that extraordinary dimension of mind and body that K dwelled in much of the time.

I don't know, whether you were there, when I have discussed this extensively on some other forum long before. I called it the 'sour-grape paradox' and it didn't end with Shainberg. It is going on and the last one wasn't UG either. It obviously has to continue as long as the 'disturbed self ' is under threat of becoming a 'no body'.

However, and it spite of this, I think he hit the nail pretty much on the head in regards to K's and many of his follower's shortcomings or wrong 'Path'. The path of the mind or thought rather than one of the heart or feelings.

The problem is in the level of attention. An illusionary mind is fixed, and thus obviously other truths appear illusionary. Shainberg could have done much better than others in clarifying by questioning. He appears more conservative than Bohm in the recorded discussions too.

Bohm seems to be more balanced in saying "It is up to each human being to see, if he can discover for himself that to which Krishnamurti is calling attention, and to go on from there, to make new discoveries on his own."

K didn't give any path. He said to be free from all paths. Any path is generally a concept or 'intellectual' product of 'I'. Obviously all paths have different hues. The 'I' being energy, can't tag or enslave itself to its own product called 'path', which is the problem of today's mankind. As long as there are innumerable paths in one's memory, it doesn't matter. But if one is always popping up or taking preference over others, it is obvious that 'I' is conditioned to it due to its own damage.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sat, 21 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

phil K wrote: I would like to opt out of the comparison to Bob as being one of the two people with hope to understand.....

I appreciate your modesty in opting out.

as I have seen enough posts from all who remain posting on here to say that all are equally investigating the teachings of K for what they want to get out of it.

Though it is desirable, unfortunately all are not able to equally investigate the matter irrespective of whatever they want to get out of it, because human perceptions differ from one another, due to variation in the levels of fragmentation. Human responses to same situations all over the world are varying, firstly according to the levels of fragmentation and secondly as per their intellect or knowledge.

Despite not being fully matching or accurate, it helps us to take the analogy of the computer to understand the performance of human intelligence. Take the Power Input as 'I' and all loaded Softwares as knowledge. Final response or performance is always together in unison.

If the power input is flawless then even with minimum software it may function without conflicts. However, when the Power Input has some some flaws, even the best software application can't assure normal performance.

Though all human thoughts, speeches and actions are the products arising from both of these, K didn't see the need to elaborate the distinction between the 'I' and memory ( Power Input and the softwares). Had he distinguished, it would have most certainly helped to realize his cherished objectives.

If you closely examine. you would see there are many who are merely satisfied with their one liners that too once in a way, displaying their hesitation toc. Thanks to kinfonet, this forum is a free place, where people can freely express their views, and of course without causing embarrassment to any one. Only who come and share the views with all can improve and help correct others.

I would prefer that the evaluations of my progress be reserved for an office visit.

;-) I was only alluding about the seriousness of yours vis-a -vis that of others including Bob. There is no evaluation being done. I did the first and the final grading of human intelligence according to levels of fragmentation long ago in the 'Hierarchy of Intelligence'. However, the doors are always open to you just as a friend and you are always welcome to visit me any time.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sun, 22 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

French Touch wrote:to Bob , >At some point U.G. Osho and K are freaks (we all are) but when they say something that makes sense I enjoy it and the freak does not count anymore.

Bob, I wanted to say what French Touch has already said. Quoting a point may be necessary bu quoting lengthily and constantly appears to indicate the lack of one's own perception. Perhaps one is unable to have his own view, one generally quotes from either K or his baiters.

You know, there are proverbs that give opposite meanings, but are used according to our convenience. For instance, Delay is dangerous, Haste is waste. I don't have to quote from K-admirers to counter the quotes of a K critic, because, If you go through your own old postings, you get a myriad. And this war doesn't end.

Only when your perceptions improve, you begin to find a lot of discrepancies in the books of all the philosophers this world has produced. In this regard, in my humble personal experience, I found numerous discrepancies in all other works, but the least or almost nil in the assertions of K.

To understand, why mankind isn't changing or improving in spite of so many great men, I classified this great men phenomenon in to two parts of my studies, and found that the states of minds were more or less the same in them, but they failed only in effective communication. Despite failure, K still scores the highest marks, partly because the overall progress mankind had made at his time.

There is no intent to evaluate, but then what is wrong with it ? Other day, a scientist told me, that he finds all religious teachers and philosophers as drab, bore and mediocre. When I asked him whether he had read K, he replied in the negative. I asked him whether we can meet again after he has read some of K.

Where is the 'silence' that we had talked of earlier ? If there is no silence before the beginning of your posting and even in between your sentences, you will continue to appear to be too long in your postings and constantly oscillating between the extremes, and disabling others to understand, what actually is your stand. Forgive me, if you find me harsh.

Irrespective of the states of mind of K in 1916, 29 or 61, why can't we take only his best and according to me, he went on improving in his expressions till his end.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Sun, 22 Nov 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

Robert Michael wrote: So love and do as you will and there will be right-action, as K very well put it, but unfortunately, and like so many others, he wasn't able to closely follow his very own advice.

If you have a normal or natural mind, you can't but love. K had a single mind. It is impossible to say and do differently in such a mind. Those who are unable to change, generally become desperate and begin to find fault with the teachings. Today's quote gives some more details about it.

Saanen Switzerland On Freedom, Talks by Krishnamurti in Europe 1963 If you are hearing for the first time this statement that you must be free of thought, you may say, " Poor chap, he is crazy." But if you have really listened, not only this time but for the many years during which some of you have perhaps read all about it, you will know that what is being said has an an extraordinary vitality, a penetrating truth. Only the mind that has emptied itself of the known is creative. That is creation. What it creates has nothing to do with it. Freedom from the known is the state of a mind that is in creation. How can a mind that is in creation be concerned with itself? Therefore, to understand that state of mind, you have to know yourself, you have to observe the process of your thinking - observe it, not to alter it, not to change it, but just observe it as you see yourself in a mirror. When there is freedom, then you can use knowledge and it will not destroy humanity.* But when there is no freedom and you make use of knowledge, you create misery for everybody, whether you are in Russia, in America, in China or anywhere else. I call that mind serious that is aware of the conflict of the known and is not caught in it, not trying to modify it, to improve the known; for on that path there is no end to sorrow and misery.


Perhaps, K could have said it differently like this: When there is freedom, then you can use knowledge voluntarily and it will not destroy humanity. Though he hasn't used the word 'voluntarily', some people understand it as an implied meaning.

Forum: Awareness in our world today Mon, 23 Nov 2009
Topic: Krishnamurti's mentioned order cqn be new order

I have got and thanks for it. You may delete your copy. I will get back to you shortly.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Tue, 24 Nov 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

Robert Michael wrote: Yes, they are but conclusions or opinions and may or may not express the truth as you say, Rick. Yet they feel so perfectly right or true to me. And my comfortability or right-feelability must come first,....

Bob, unless others also feel that you are right, how can you proceed further ? Have you ever questioned your self by turning inwards ?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Tue, 24 Nov 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

phil K wrote: I am not sure that those who are frustrated with K because they can't change then find fault with the teachings.

My point was particularly to those who come to K with the goal of becoming free but fail to achieve that, may generally begin to do so initially. My simple explanation is that both Drive and Direction have to be in balance and that excess Drive is causing this loss of Direction.

If there was a specific sentence where K was either inconsistent or technically wrong, would have helped us to investigate further. Finally, when they don't find takers for their arguments, they may gradually begin to question themselves and return to normal.

Perhaps at one time or other, we all may have been like that or appeared to others like that. It may have been caused due to some drastic changes in our own psyche or even due to lack of expression. However, if Bob seems to be over speeding and If he doesn't apply brakes on his own, he may any way stop, when he runs out of fuel (of words) !

Phil, I appreciate your patience. Things will become cool on their own, if we don't precipitate.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Tue, 24 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Patricia Hemingway wrote:

Robert Michael wrote: Prasanna, you've been communicating with a man who not only thoroughly understands K and walks in his foots steps, but has gone far beyond him. Pat: A fine example of someone puffed-up, flushed and florid with his own 'self' importance.

Pat, don't you feel concerned about someone, who has at least tried to be or go beyond K, though he may not have succeeded in others' eyes ? Isn't he better than others, who believe that no one can be as free as K, and hence don't attempt at all ?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Tue, 24 Nov 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

"You and I are responsible for war, not Hitler, Stalin, or some other super-leader.

Some statements seem difficult to digest. According to me, only those who are connected with the war are responsible for it and according to their levels of fragmentation. What others think ?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Wed, 25 Nov 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

phil K wrote: K looked at conditioning as responses learned as emotional connections and not learned responses as mathematics.

I feel it is partly so. Learning may be volitional also. However, according to me 'emotions' are the responses of consciousness to its own aberrated perceptions.

This is quite clear to me to have to do with responses that memory has to fear as it is one of the main emotions where K said "thought breeds fear" which clearly to me has to do with the process of conditioning.

Perhaps whole of mankind's problems hinges on this single misconception, which if cleared may open the only door to freedom. I have found that K's findings have been at variance with that of mine many a time, but when on deeper examination I have found the problem was only with the wordings. In this regard, I may humbly say that these great men didn't realize that their words are likely to become obstacles for their own cherished objectives of freedom.

According to me, it is the fear that breeds thought initially. Later, attention begins to analyze by expanding the thought by further usage of memory. Obviously 'more thoughts' also can't help the consciousness to get rid of its 'fear', because it is the aberration caused in the basic structure of consciousness itself. Thought is a later creation or a secondary function of the dynamic force or energy that we call as consciousness or attention, which I call as the original 'I'. The second part or the expansion by refueling of thoughts and consequent failure may alone has been taken into consideration, when K said that 'thought breeds fear'.

Even Buddha's greatest saying that desire is the cause of misery, perhaps could be easier understood, if it may be re-read as 'misery (retained in childhood) is the cause of desires'.

The kinfonet used to put the topic of each subject at the top of each page and I am afraid this new method has caused all of the topics just to work like that party game where you write a sentence and the next person reads your response and folds your response under and says something and then passes it on.

The problem doesn't seem to be with the format of discussion, but it seems to be with the 'I'. By merely changing the formats of discussions, the desired change or benefit may not arrive. What is perhaps required is the focus, whether on a single sentence or a whole concept. Either way focus has to sharpen to penetrate and understand the truth.

Except for the all pervasive powers given to the moderators, I don't see there is any problem with this forum. Sometime back, in the midst of an ongoing discussion a serious forum was closed as the moderator felt it necessary. A poster was reportedly upset when another Moderator simply removed a page in another forum. That is the reason, I often suggest you to wait. Moderators can always wait to take action, till some members complain of some problem with other postings. That gives them some credence to their act. I don't know whether Dev or some one concerned is seeing this. What do you think ?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Wed, 25 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Pat, Isn't 'concern' different from 'compare' ? Instead of merely giving peripheral responses, why don't you go deeper in to any topic once in a way ? Then you may feel the concern, which is common to all. Forgive me if I am wrong.

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Wed, 25 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Patricia Hemingway wrote: Is it not that each is responsible for oneself? One is responsible for one's own delusion surely?

If everyone was responsible and also aware of it, then perhaps the word 'concern' wouldn't have got a place in the dictionary. Isn't it?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Fri, 27 Nov 2009
Topic: Love

Therese Okamoto wrote: ....i dont know how to want to be as free as he thinks we all should be....

One who can find this out and even tell others, could be called as going 'beyond K'. Because even K failed to say how to change. Isn't it so ?

Forum: K, psychology and the physical brain Fri, 27 Nov 2009
Topic: Classic Conditioning

phil K wrote: I think Burton is going to do this with his next book.

Phil, Didn't you feel the same before his first talk at kfa or reading his first book ? ;-)