Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Prasanna P's Forum Activity | 430 posts in 7 forums


Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

Basically, there are two components that make a teacher, or for that matter any human being. They are i) level of freedom and ii) expressions. The level of freedom could be put crudely in percentage. Expressions are combination of freedom and knowledge in memory.

As per levels of freedom, K could be compared with that of Buddha and Shankara. However, in expressions, K excelled all teachers of the world. His declarations to liberate everyone, displayed the upper limit of freedom of consciousness in mankind.

Forum: Serious Debate Wed, 17 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Hello Terrence, I think, I am able to understand your views, for having gone through the similar ordeal. In the beginning, I too was of the view that 'wisdom' or 'freedom' could be taught or attained intellectually! Over the years, I realized that it is a characteristic of the consciousness and it could only be retained or protected and lastly 'could only be regained through mutation'. I appreciate your drive in this matter and hope to continue our dialogue, after you go through my profile. With regards, Love

Forum: Serious Debate Sun, 21 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Robert Michael wrote: Have you any thoughts Prasanna on how one acquires that 'characteristic of the consciousness', or that innate capacity, as I sometimes call it, which is necessary in order for a genuine mutation to take place in a person? Bob M.

Bob, Acquiring of any characteristic of consciousness isn't possible before mutation. Further, Knowledge itself can't bring mutation. However when it is appropriate and when the consciousness is ready and eager for it, knowledge can help trigger the process of mutation,

Presently, human consciousness is disturbed, damaged or fragmented in the growing years of the brain. This fragmentation is consolidated and made permanent by an elders' error during that period. This is perhaps labeled as the 'wrong turn', and thereafter the 'self' begins to dominate consciousness.

The 'self' is nothing but the consciousness often driven by an exclusive image or identity, which is amalgamated by the unfinished urges or the illusion of insecurity from childhood. Anytime in adult hood, if and when consciousness attempts to perceive the same fully, the illusions of insecurity vanish completely thus ending the bonding.

Mutation is nothing but the removal of this 'amalgamation' or 'bonding' or separation of this identity. Mutation is essential, because without it, the consciousness can't become free. 'Self' only can attempt to begin the process of mutation, because it has hijacked and become the driver and conductor of this natural and dynamic movement of consciousness.

Fragmented consciousness is result of unrectified damage or unperceived hurt. Since, suspended or uncompleted perception is being perceived now, the effect of the same old pain is perceived, but now once and for all time.

By sitting quiet and merely observing only the natural functions of the body viz., breathing, heartbeat, blinking, and the basic sound in ears, the consciousness can be prepared for mutation. Sooner or later, there arises the usual restlessness and boredom, which are the unperceived or left over effects of childhood hurts. If the consciousness continues to observe the restlessness or boredom or depression without trying to justify or overcome that, then the process of mutation generally begins.

Consciousness must continue to observe even the process of mutation as long as possible. After the first episode, mutation begins to take place at different intervals and often during new and challenging situations. Then the escapist involuntary intellectual activity of thinking begins to reduce and finally ceases, which means the ending of 'self', which is motivated by illusion of insecurity. Then pure 'I' or pure consciousness is left alone, without the self.

This is my experiment and quite successful.

Forum: Serious Debate Mon, 22 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Hi Bob, Yesterday when I was in a K group discussion, a gentleman politely began by saying that he has a question, He went on and on. Finally, some one had to interject saying, whether he is questioning or answering and to whom. Some people burst into laughter and others who were sleeping got awakened and asked what was the matter. ;-) We have discussed a lot before and I think we need to do more. As I am hurrying up for some work, I shall pick the questions in them and answer in detail after my return. In the meanwhile, may I ask you to go through my Theory of Fragmentation of Intelligence ? Perhaps that would clear some of the coubts. P

Forum: Serious Debate Mon, 22 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Bob, my answers to your questions.

Q:What gave you (given that you in fact have undergone a genuine mutation) the capacity to be able to undergo such a thing in the first place?

A: Barring exceptions, all those with less than 49% fragmentation have the ability to get mutated, because their natural consciousness is 51% and above and hence it is dominant. They are generally rational and reasonable. If such persons pursue or practise meditation with determination, it can surely lead to the process of mutation. However, such persons are cosy and don't feel the need for mutation. The need for mutation is more for the middle class, but they are afraid to face the long phase. The highly disturbed can see neither its need nor its possibility.

Q:I too believe you feel like Krishnamurti did that mutation can happen to everyone. Which I fully disagree with.

A:I feel it may not happen to any one on its own under usual or normal circumstances. A challenging situation may suddenly trigger it in some cases. Singular determination helped me, because I had no clear idea about it. I had to do years of work before triggering that process, which my readers may do it in far less time.

Q: I wonder how effective you feel you are in helping others in this mutation process? Personally I don't feel I'm very effective at all, nor do I think this type of discussion will be of much if any value at all to others.

A: I am now putting it in writing, before beginning any such project. It is effortless to share one's true experience with others, particularly in clarifying that it is entirely harmless to just allow the natural process to take its own course.

If you say you aren't effective, it may be because you may not have allowed the process to continue till the end. I feel these discussions can be of help and go a long way in reducing the difficulties and complications that the readers may find.

Q:Did your mutation in its initial phase especially or at anytime incapacitate you so far as carrying out your normal daily activities, as it did K, myself, and many others whose lives I've studied?

A: Yes. Severe depression began long after the initial phase. Probably because, I was aware of its inevitability, I suffered far lesser than K. Now the bouts of depression come only after long intervals.

Q: "Ultimately, it's the lack of love that does us in before our time"

A: I am not very sure, what love meant to him. Leaving children on their own except while protecting from dangers, and only medical attention during their physical hurts, constitute love according to me.

Practice of meditation is necessary to trigger mutation, after which the meditation state becomes the default state of consciousness.

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Tue, 23 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

<<<mike: Personally, reading those old Hindu texts, or Buddhism, I think it's thrilling to come across something that still rings true after 2500, 3000 years. But I rarely anymore read those older texts, when the fresh ones are right here..>>>

<<<venu: Texts in valid contexts, shall I say, speaking the same eternal truths. Finally, the truth of the pudding is in eating it. Have we been transformed, are we living the truth? Only we can be the true judges of our progress.>>>

Truth or the natural state of consciousness has been the same for mankind before and after advent of civilization or particularly mass communication.

Fragmentation has caused 1) sorrow, which in turn caused 2) motivation for discovering and overcoming sorrow, which in turn caused 3) accumulations of the discovered facts and their applications, some of which are incomplete and inaccurate.

Many discovered facts about mind or consciousness are true. However, the facts of principles of functioning and operation of consciousness are undoubtedly incomplete and ineffective. Had they been accurate and adequate, man would have been liberated long ago.

In this regard, hats off to K for clearly demonstrating his conflict free natural state of mind. It is left for all of us to proceed to discover further about the state of human mind, by studying his teachings rather than getting stuck in both awe, entertainment and dependence on mere expressions coming out from that state of mind.

Undoubtedly, that state of mind has been discovered long long ago. Only level or quality of expressions or applications from that state of mind have been improving from Vedas onwards to Buddha to K. K pioneered and gave a paradigm shift in the search of man to first discover state of meditation, which will take care of all other things in life.

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Tue, 23 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

Manoj SachDeva wrote: What is beyond ''what is'' is alive and Ks teaching points to that when you listen without comparison, past knowing etc.

I think, K wanted to set mankind free, not to sit there merely appreciating him! ;-)

Forum: Serious Debate Tue, 23 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Q:You still haven't answered my question: What gave YOU (given that you in fact have undergone a genuine mutation) the capacity to be able to undergo such a thing in the first place? A: Please forgive me, Bob. I am not getting an answer, despite repeatedly scanning my memory or hard disk in my brain. The only answer I can give is that like many others, I too was running from pillar to post in search of truth or freedom. When I met K, then only I realized that I have to turn inwards, because the problem lay there within me inside.

Q:My view is that either a brain is properly formed or it is not. A: I respect your views, even if it differs with mine or others'. Most of the people who come to me, have your views. However, my personal finding is that there is only a 'calibration error or a reading error' in perception, that is causing the whole problem. If your weighing machine is not reading properly, will you throw it away? Just do the calibration by turning the small wheel to bring the reading to zero. Thereafter it gives the correct reading.

Q:...... you have not gone on to enter and dwell in the deep mystical dimension of intuitive all-knowingness and pure spiritedness. But rather you remain at the level of the intellect, reason, logic, or psychology. A: In our previous long marathon discussions, you may remember that I have been stressing that I am only an independent researcher in Psychology and would remain so. I am not a world, mystical or spiritual teacher or any such kind.

Q:I feel you have not experienced a complete and total death of the 'self', which K said was necessary (dying completely to the known) in order to attain that extraordinary state of being that he had attained. A: You have rightly pointed out. I may never say that I have lost the 'self' completely. Because, then only I can continue to improve the duration of my meditation sessions. If I say I have become, there is no scope for improvement or then the improvement stops.
Even during small sessions, when you meditate, the self is not. Even the most 'selfish' person will be without the self, during some or other time in a day. It is my finding, that intelligence is neither fully nor always dead.

Q: Your recurring bouts of depression help confirm this view. Even though they're less frequent. Which I feel results from your lack of courage to unearth and fully fathom the full truths about yourself and/or the human condition. A: You are welcome to confirm any of your views. There are some others who have opined that 'like me, if everyone had the courage not to call Psychiatrists during bouts of depressions', then whole world would have been free. Neither of these views is going to affect, confirm or alter my position or progress.

Q: Or might I say you haven't fully taken off your rose-colored glasses. I too have experienced periods of incapacitating depression with my awakening. Along with periods of extreme elation that too were incapacitating. A: See Bob, I really feel for you, because you may be missing the golden chance. I have mentioned to you repeatedly earlier. Depression is the gateway to freedom. Only thing is your entire consciousness shouldn't be immersed in that. Even if you (the pure consciousness) remain unimmersed by even 1%, then stay firm with it and stoically, without avoiding or embracing. And that pure consciousness will go on expanding and the depression dominated part will go on getting relieved.

Actually, after I threw away my earlier societal glasses, the world began to look rosy and beautiful. The fact that you are feeling extreme elation shows that you are un-consciously not allowing full observation of depression. Because, when sorrow or depression is observed and reduced then the elation is also proportionately reduced.

As depressions are reducing and becoming just small aberrations to me, and if it continues in this manner, then I may have to wonder later what it was like!

Q:K once said that in order to find out what love is - we must first find out what it is not. And this requires taking a long, hard, honest, and serious look at oneself and one's defects of character, behaviors, and actions which are not grounded in love. Which spring from a wrongly conditioned and functioning brain. However he did not keep the focus on this simple process of soul-searching, if you will. But instead he got sidetracked into the paralysis of analysis, logic, reason, and endless and fruitless diagoguing on the workings of the brain and mind, consciousness, thought, etc. Which carries over in very large part in these forums. A: Despite some of his discrepancies, I have to humbly admit that K opened my eyes. The benefits I have derived far outweigh the delay due to those discrepancies, in my liberation or whatever you call. Now, it is for you to leave the doubtful things behind and proceed with what you find right.

Q: I feel I'm ineffective with others because I'm not focused on reaching deeply into men's minds and hearts, which must be done if real change is to take place in them. A: If real change takes place in you first, then you will try to bring change in others both effortlessly and choicelessly.

Q: However remembering that perhaps only 2% of the species is capable of change in the context of first undergoing a revolutionary mutation of both the mind and the heart. Which means reachable and genuinely changeable minds and heart are quite rare and hard to find. And the initial and necessary shift or mutation being of the soul-shattering nature of the one K underwent in 1922. A: I beg to differ, Bob. You will say, I am over confident. Please give me any number of healthy and even if malnourished infants. 100% of them I can raise with the dominating natural consciousness, with least or nil fragmentation. That is more than enough to make this world a paradise.

Q: Actually I'm seriously beginning to wonder if I'm in the right country for the awakening of some of my fellows. Whether the societal conditioning here has become so spiritually and morally bankrupt and corrupt that virtually no one is capable of genuine transformation and restoration to sanity. A: Perhaps I too was of your view before I met K.Still all the frustrated young men fel so. It is me (or my own consciousness) that has to change, to see correctly. For that I need a quiet place and some food and some time for Tapas (meditation). This you can get in any country. After you change, any country doesn't matter. There are people who can listen and understand K in the west. In his birth country, there is so much growing orthodoxy, that only some foreign returned persons understand this.

Q:Lastly, I again post the following remark of K. And which I feel should have been the primary focus of the 'teachings'. And these forums, if they're to be of any spiritual value at all. "Can we look at ourselves, LOOK AT THE BASIC FACT OF OURSELVES - which is GREED, ENVY, ANXIETY, FEAR, HYPOCRISY, DECEPTION, AMBITION - can we watch that, without any distortion." (J. K.). A: Going deeper is important, irrespective of the teachings. To understand K, his dissolution statement and the core of the teachings are simple, brief and more than enough. Because, people weren't reciprocating, he went on saying and people went on collecting them. He didn't want us to collect them, he wanted us to be capable of producing such original statements. By merely studying the print-outs, can you understand the functioning of the computer? Thank these forums, in the true spirit of K, they are doing their best. It is for the participants to make their efforts fruitful.

Q:My own personal experience also indicates that the total development of the human being will not take place in a person unless he steps fully out of the rat-race, at least for a time. And ideally forever. A: Rightly said, Bob. And one can't step out of rat race, as long as the consciousness is dominated by its own fragmentation.
(no time to edit, I will do it on my return. Till then manage)

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Tue, 23 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

Venu is right. Further, if we can expand the meaning of his words, K also said : "To understand me is to understand yourself. To follow me is to be like me." Which other Guru, sorry, he didn't like this word, so which other human being was so much independent? and hence his declaration to set mankind absolutely and unconditionally free, is unprecedented.

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Wed, 24 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

Isn't it meditation state?

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Wed, 24 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

Undoubtedly, there are instances, when we become aware of our prejudices. But that is not enough. Only when the awareness is complete in itself, there can't arise any prejudice at all. That is the state of consciousness, you can call it as meditatable state. Then we would definitely live differently.

Forum: Serious Debate Wed, 24 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Terrence Webster-Doyle wrote: Forget it. This is like "Telephone Tree" with something so very different coming out far away from the original statement of mine about the Oak Grove School. I'm not getting into this confusion. I am "resigning" from this site. Terrence webster-Doyle

There seemed nothing personal against you here, Terrence. We are all like researchers about the K state. We continue to have the same regards towards you. In their overzealousness, many people in the past have resigned and left the institutions. Even the newly started institutions didn't bring their expected satisfaction to all.

Perhaps you may have slightly altered your stance that there is very little you or the school can do about the problem of human consciousness, except of course keeping the dialogues open. As one who has had somewhat similar experience long time back, may I request you to stay on and watch, even if you can't contribute further to this discussion. I think, you may have left the school after K's death. If he was alive, perhaps he would have made you to stay on. Such was his charisma. Am I right ?

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Thu, 25 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

Manoj SachDeva wrote: Let us see what is in and behind this demand that awareness should be complete in itself so that no prejudice can arise at all...

As long as prejudice arises, there is demand for freedom from it. If prejudice isn't there, then the need for freedom from it also is not there. This is possible only in total awareness.

Forum: Serious Debate Thu, 25 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Not withstanding whatever is said by one or another, what clearly seems to me, is that all are sincere K-ites. Their means to realize the objective of K is really appreciable, though they may differ from one another in their means of methods or approaches to their goal. K himself had repeatedly said that means itself is the end. Hence, it becomes all the more important for all of us to carry everyone with us in our journey.

David's point reminds me of a situation here some 10 years ago. Then the President of a private school had to change the schools of his children 3 times in 7 years. Two groups of teachers and parents were at a tug or war, one.alleging and suspecting that he is benefiting by keeping them in the same school and another group by sending them to another school. Considering Mark's association with K from childhood and his dedication and work rendered to the organization, he doesn't seem to have any particular self interested idea or intention in sending his child to another school.

Every spiritual and religious organization in India has numerous schools. They form schools to enable parents with similar views to gather together and each parent thinks that his or her views are the right views for their children. However, schools shouldn't be the be all and end all of all organizations. All other schools teach dualistic philosophies, which are only repetitive intellectual activities, and are undoubtedly easy to teach and ask children to memorize and reproduce. Many people believe that K's works are taught in K schools. It is impossible to teach K to children, as the gist of the teachings is the intellectual freedom, which enables exploration. The quality of teachings is so high, that it needs post-matric or high school level to get even a glimpse of it, in the presently available format.

K's teachings emphasize on the fundamental freedom of the root mind, from which the stem arises and the fruits are produced. Freedom is displayed in attitude and not the mere wordings of the speaker. We all took K's words only, because it is easily communicable and storable. Attitude or behavior is in the back ground of the words. Can it be taught? No. Children, who are raised without fear, can't tell lies. Lies are motivated by fear. It may be very important for K readers and associates to be role models in attitudes along with their words. Otherwise, other organizations would not merely laugh, but also will have the last laugh.

One of the probable solutions to prevent such misunderstandings seem to be to explore a mathematical explanation or description of K's teachings, which finally amounts to revelation of the principles and operation of the human mind itself. (to be edited later.)

Forum: Serious Debate Thu, 25 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Robert Michael wrote: It's all done for David, and Krishnamurti clearly knew it would happen. "When Krishnamurti dies, which is inevitable, you will make a religion,........"

That was only the warning of K. Not his wishful thinking. Don't worry, nothing has happened. Bigger crises have been faced by them earlier.

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Thu, 25 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

If I can answer, it is like this. To be fully in the present is to be fully free from or not using the memory. Amnesia is loss of memory, i.e., engaging memory, but not able to get the desired data. Meditation is like keeping the hand set ready, i.e., either you can make or receive a call, but not engaged in anything.

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Thu, 25 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

Venu Gopal wrote: In short, our memory is intact but it neither is a burden nor colours (prejudices) our seeing. Therefore could I say that K's teaching is not about getting rid of our memory, but being free of its intrusive nature?

Yes and no. It is true that K's teaching doesn't advocate getting rid of memory.
Being free of its intrusive nature ? Memory is nothing more than a collection of life less recordings. It doesn't have any motive power to intrude anywhere. For diversion from its own state of fragmentation or misery, the consciousness itself is thinking or replaying the memory. When fragmentation ceases, the involuntary thinking ceases.

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Thu, 25 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

All emotions are undesirable since they have their opposites. The fear or withdrawal and other negative emotions are first direct experiences of consciousness of its own fragmentation. Positive emotions of pleasure and such others are actually diversions created by the errors of elders in upbringing. If there are no pleasures, there can't be sorrow, but only wonder and creativity,

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Fri, 26 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

Venu Gopal wrote: K said, "To live is to be vulnerable."

These quotes, without contexts can create havoc. Please let me know, when where K has said this. Other day, one of my friends came to me and said throw away all books and theories, because K has said it !!! ;--(

Forum: Serious Debate Fri, 26 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Robert Michael wrote: Rather, formal education may very well even help to destroy a good and sound foundation in a child.

Bob, I have personally observed that children raised with least disturbances in the growing years of the brain, shall remain stable and virtuous, despite bad formal education, bad environment and bad company.

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Fri, 26 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

Hi Venu, Yes. What you say is right. The context matters. Btw, have you seen some new questions for interview, put forth by the kinfonet team ? Amazing and extra ordinary, I would say the open mindedness of the kinfonet team. Perhaps the time has come to take what is most important and essential from K and to advance it for the benefit of mankind. K had stated his objective, and it is left for the rest of us to carry his mission of liberating unconditionally free.

I want to work on them. If you too can give your brief answers, it helps everyone in this kinfonet community to understand one another well. The link is on the right hand side mentioned as Kinfonet note pad, below the book store column.

Forum: K's teachings - new or old? Sat, 27 Jun 2009
Topic: New or old or strange&unique

Venu Gopal wrote: I think as the years go on.......,

After all, it is the pure human intelligence that is caught in its own web. Though it is its own web, the cause of this 'wrong turn' or its motivation is entirely due to an error during upbringing, according to me. My wish is that K's concept would be realized, when it grows up from philosophy to science. One day it will be scientific and realizable by most of educated mankind.

New questions are in this page. http://kinfonet.org/site_news/entries It would have been better if the page was in a form, where in there will be space for answer below each question. By splitting the questions and advising to be brief, the purpose may be met. I think, you can't ask but only add new questions also therein.

Forum: Serious Debate Mon, 29 Jun 2009
Topic: The Oak Grove School: Is it teaching its students about conditioning or is it mearly just another prep school?

Yiming Zhang wrote: You can rekindle the flame that drew you to Krishnamurti back in 1984.

Yes, Yiming. Your observations are noteworthy. It is the attitude that K stressed upon, which has been the casualty. It is because, only words are taken note of, and not the attitude or the concern behind those words.

Whilst on the subject, I remember an old anecdote. A big scholar returned from a long time pilgrimage of Benaras or Varanasi. Relatives and well wishers began flocking around him to listen to him. The family servant who had become near deaf (hard of hearing) asked him what he had left or sacrificed in Benaras.

During the visit to lord, it is customary to leave or sacrifice a vegetable or a quality or some thing which is very dear. It is somewhat like the new year resolution, but more religiously followed by some. The scholar said he has left 'anger'.

As he couldn't hear, the servant asked him again the same thing. The scholar replied "anger", second time quite bluntly . The servant didn't stop asking the same thing as he wasn't hearing. The scholar's reply went on becoming rough and harsh, till finally he got up and went to slap the servant saying "you deaf, I said I have left anger". The servant respectfully replied, " yes, elder brother, how did you learn that I have lost my hearing. It happened when you were on pilgrimage". The scholar asked him, "why didn't you tell me earlier?". And the servant replied " I wanted to tell you later". Such stories go on everywhere.

Forum: Serious Debate Sat, 04 Jul 2009
Topic: What would a school look like that actually taught Krishnamurti's insights into conditioning

Terrence Webster-Doyle wrote: What I would like to attempt to do here is to stay focused on what a school would look like that actually taught K's insights in education about conditioned thinking.<

Presumably you are under an impression that it is possible to bring a root level change in the psyche of children by giving them the right education. No wonder, you may be like the many here, who are in a hurry to bring a change in others without actually undergoing a change in themselves. Don't mistake me. This problem of 'failure of teachings to enable transformation' had baffled even K, which is abundantly clear by his own words. My 'Theory of Fragmentation of Intelligence' unravels the reasons for it.

In this regard I may humbly like to state the following: 1. The change is necessary and possible only in adults. 2. The age of children is such that they neither feel the need to change nor they understand what is to be done for the change. 3. When even elders aren't able to understand the concept through the present level of teachings, how can we expect the children to?

If the functioning or operation of the mind is good, it's out put is also good, irrespective of the input is good or bad. Similarly in a disturbed mind, the output is generally bad, irrespective of the inputs. This operating mechanism can't be altered or improved by merely giving good inputs.

However, if one is at all serious, one can change or transform one self, by understanding the principle and operation of human mind, at least theoretically. Presently available teachings alone may not be able to bring or enable a change in others.

Terrence Webster-Doyle wrote: As I said in the other debate about the Oak Grove School I want to bring to life such an education. I feel my wife and I made an attempt to do this with the Atrium School we started in Ojai the same year I left the Oak Grove. I would like to share this experience with you.<

Please share those experiences, Or inform the website where you have placed those details. What extra ordinary results you got in Atrium?

Terrence Webster-Doyle wrote: I am a former Director of the Oak Grove School. I was personally asked by Krishnamurti to do so in 1984. I had written him a letter saying that I was not, in all due respect, interested in him, but rather in understanding conditioning, which I realized could be seen by anyone that cared to look. (I had been seriously interested in understanding conditioning since 1969 when I first heard someone read a passage by Krishnamurti).<

I would humbly request you to share your findings, if any, about conditioning, as you seriously took interest since 1969.

My final question is whether K platform is necessary to bring a change in others ort society? Don't mistake me. I took the concept of K, but I had to make a lot of alterations to them to work in my case.

Forum: Serious Debate Sun, 05 Jul 2009
Topic: What would a school look like that actually taught Krishnamurti's insights into conditioning

Yiming Zhang wrote: Let's cut to the chase. I would like for all of us who are interested - including those (e.g. Prasana) who question the entire approach to education - to move on with this topic.

Hi Yiming, It is remarkable that you don't skip following and responding to these threads even while on business tour. Meanwhile, may I request you to answer the interview questions on the profile page, when you find time? This would enable me and others to know your views on this crucial subject. Best, Prasanna

Forum: Serious Debate Mon, 06 Jul 2009
Topic: What would a school look like that actually taught Krishnamurti's insights into conditioning

Yiming Zhang wrote:

am not on a business tour. In case you are wondering, just picture me as a man who never have to work for a living. My only deep abiding interest these days is Krishnamurti's agenda to bring about human change.>

I have seen quite a few here, who don't have to work for a living. But they don't seem to have your kind of passion either.

I have always liked discussing with people who share an interest in Krishnmaurti even though meaningful dialogue is few and far between. The present topic on education is of deep interest to me as I have been harboring the idea, for some time now, of starting a project of some kind involving the upbringing of children. By the way, I do share your views (quoted below) and would like them explored within the context of Terrence's topic. It was those questions of yours that stalled the project.>

I would be glad, if you find my discovery worthy of further investigation.

Prasanna P wrote: In this regard I may humbly like to state the following: 1. The change is necessary and possible only in adults....... Could you expand a little on Points 1 above? Point 2 and 3 are self-explanatory to me.>

18 to 20 years of age is necessary for humans to develop psychologically and to develop their individual personalities. Till then, they are either adolescents or children. They can't have an intellectual, societal or world view till then. Their vision is limited to their physical daily needs and persons around them and hence, they can't grasp the problem of adults. Even if they hear the problems of adults, they can't make head or tail of it. William Hazlitt's essay "On feeling of immortality in youth", gives a general idea of this, although not from K's point of view. Children's problems are centered around their daily needs, and hence they seek solutions only to them.

The basic problems of adults aren't physical, but are intellectual or knowledge oriented. They arise from false or even disproportionate perception of hurt, triggering undesirable and matching intellectual responses leading to chaos.

Fragmentation has made the Operating Intelligence weak, resulting in inaccurate perception of new and challenging situations. Inaccurate perception arouses false and disproportionate natural, biological defensive urges that dominate the Operating Intelligence, due to its weakness.

Religious, nationalistic or any other ideological intellectual education given in child hood fortunately has little effect on children, adolescents or youth. If it was even half effective, then perhaps mankind would have been in a much deeper mess by now.

However, this should not deter any one planning to teach about conditioning or K-biography as it will at least be of some academic interest to children, which serves as an early introduction to those, who may pursue further later. Only the desired objective can't be met.

And my answer to the interview question you requested is no, I don't think Krishnamurti's work will die away.>

Partly, I agree with you. K's pioneering revelation of the possibility of absolute and unconditional freedom to mankind will remain unsurpassed. However, mankind's efforts to achieve that freedom may remain fruitless, as long as some of the discrepancies in the teachings remain.

Forum: Serious Debate Tue, 07 Jul 2009
Topic: Education and the K teachings

Eve Goodmon wrote: Eve Goodmon Tue, 07 Jul 2009, 3:14am

It is my understanding from reading Krishnamurti and from my discussions with him as a young child, that he created schools because children are less conditioned than adults and therefore are easier to reach.>

With due respects to You and K, may I submit two points here for kind consideration. a) Just as all other great teachers, K too felt that mere teachings can de-condition human minds. b) Besides, in his later years, K questioned the near-failure of his strategy to meet his objective of liberating mankind.

In my own experience ....... is that children are easily conditioned and also can be easily taught to be aware of this conditioning.>

The factors of 'easily conditioned' and 'easily taught...' seem to be not in the same parameter. According to my findings, the conditioning of the mind doesn't take place through education, but by unnatural external behavioral intervention of elders during the growing years of the brain. Then the conditioned mind merely consolidates its own conditioning with the help of education or knowledge, to bring a semblance of balance.

The lifeless recordings of Knowledge is invariably mistaken as the culprit. For instance, if I get angry and violent and I happen to be a Hindu and keep quoting my scriptures, then Hinduism is held or blamed as the prompter for all my actions. Instead, if I speak calmly, coolly and convincingly, then my religion is highly acclaimed. Hence, it is crucial to understand the two components in the vital process of human behavior viz., a) the energy part or the consciousness and b) the memory or stored knowledge. For instance, while you are playing a DVD, just observe that the performance is also affected when there is a voltage fluctuation in power supply.

Protect the energy or consciousness without disturbance in early child hood only till it has grown fully or just above 51% of its full growth, and see the difference. Such children can't be conditioned by any amount of bad or violent education, and their natural judgment of pure consciousness can't cause harm to the world and instead begins to question and correct the insane world.

Education can neither condition nor de-condtion the human minds. Education merely consolidates the conditioning of the mind. If conditioning through education was possible, we wouldn't have been discussing this here, for the world would have been completely annihilated by the very second generation of human beings themselves, after the advent of so called civilization. Alternatively, if de-conditioning was possible through education, nearly half a century of experiments of K and all other schools put together, would have brought at least some rays of hope to mankind, even if the world wouldn't have turned itself into a paradise!!

I agree with Krishnamurti that teaching children to be aware of conditioning is simple and it gets more difficult with age.>

The problem seems to be equally same in both, but not similar. In children the drive is enormously high, but they can't rest and focus in any given intellectual direction. Whereas in elders, they can understand the direction intellectually, but the drive to begin to actually understand is abysmally low and reduced due to age.

Often here in Asia, where children are taught to obey and not question authority they seem to be passive learners and much more conditioned than in the West and especially reluctant to make mistakes. This fear of making mistakes blocks their innate curiosity to explore the world around them.>

Forgive me again, Eve, if I appear to be vehement. Here again, according to me, the 'vulnerability to get conditioned' is very high due to the high amount of errors during upbringing when compared to what takes place in the west. Fear alone leads to obedience and pretension and education can't teach 'fear'. Elders alone can inculcate fear by fragmenting the consciousness that too only during its growing years. Haven't you seen the courageous people even dying without fear? Don't you also see the people, who are 'reluctant to commit mistakes' only have brought the present state of affairs in the oriental countries?

Still Eve, I respectfully submit that education according to me is basically the communication and that is also essential. This is going on everywhere informally and now even here between us. So far the declared purpose of education hasn't succeeded in its objectives only because the quality of contents particularly in the subject of human interactions or Psychology, haven't been of a high standard.

The day the contents grow up to be of optimum quality, the change will not just begin, but will take off at super sonic speed. I have the greatest admiration for your drive, and now I am only offering you a new direction, requesting you to examine my Theory (TFI) and I will look forward for your valued comments. Till then don't be in a hurry. Take care and with Best wishes, Prasanna

Forum: Serious Debate Tue, 07 Jul 2009
Topic: What would a school look like that actually taught Krishnamurti's insights into conditioning

Hi David, Don't lose heart. If any thing hasn't worked so far, like 'deconditioning of children through teaching', it may be so, because it may not be possible in the set up of nature. Don't take my words as final. Work out for yourself. If you find time, see my reply to eve on her thread. Let us talk after that. Prasanna

Forum: Serious Debate Tue, 07 Jul 2009
Topic: Education and the K teachings

Yiming Zhang wrote: One point to ponder before I log off. If Prasanna's opinion is correct, there is a tremendous implication on K's approach. Your observation in this regard is food for thought also.

Hi Yiming, To avoid duplication, I request you to consider my reply to Eve as if addressed to you too, though I have referred to only her statements therein. Yes, I see that my findings have a tremendous implication on K's approach to education. Be that as it may, I can't ignore that the change in me was also initiated by K's teachings to 'turn inwards'. I think, it will give enough food for thought and also to ruminate, until you return and sit on the net next time.

Forum: Serious Debate Tue, 07 Jul 2009
Topic: Education and the K teachings

Eve Goodmon wrote: Human consciousness is conditioned from time in memorial. 25 million years of human existence with its fears, experiences and knowledge are all conditioning.>

An error on the part of elders causing the process of 'conditioning' may be going on from time immemorial or inestimable. However, with due respects and humility, I may state, that each human consciousness is an independent entity and is free of all conditioning at its birth in a new brain. It can remain free for the rest of its life, if it is protected from getting fragmented or damaged, that too only during its growing period.

Conditioning is much more than education. What is ?natural? and unnatural behavior? Is there such a thing?>

Yes, Eve. Behavior is either natural or motivated due to fragmentation.

Education and the teachings can not bring about transformation but it does cause an AWAKENING of intelligence.>

Generally both terms mean the same thing. Can you define them, if you feel they are different?

Are you sure you have read K? I question that POLITELY but I do question if you have read or understood the teachings.>

I may not have read or understood as much as you may have done. Is my knowledge or seriousness not enough to discuss with you ?

Again you are using the word HOPE. What is hope? It is a wishful thinking for a future and is there such a thing as future? >

Let us be free from K, rather his words, just for a while. I merely answered your question. as " if de-conditioning was possible through education, ....(it)..... .would have brought at least some rays of hope to mankind, even if the world wouldn't have turned itself into a paradise!!"

It wasn't my hope. Aren't 'hopes' the birth rights of those, who invariably wait or even pray for the kingdom to come, without bothering to do what actually should be done? Future is the continuation of the present. So let us change the present.

Yes, I wish I can and with the help of people like you and Yiming, I should continue the venture, from where K left, to liberate mankind absolutely and unconditionally. That is the true tribute we can offer to the man who showed us the door to freedom. Of course, not necessarily with his words or strategy. You see it hasn't worked so far.

Eve, I would earnestly appeal to see my Theory of Fragmentation of Intelligence, which helps you to understand my stand vis-a-vis K. That is my honest attempt to give a scientific revelation of the human mind, by merging Psychology, Philosophy, Spirituality and Religion in a gist, for the benefit of the serious and the discerning. If we don't get down to the brass tasks now, we will also lose our precious time, just like all our predecessors.

Last but not least, please try to use this symbol right arrow ( >) at the beginning and ending of all that you quote of others. Then the whole thing doesn't become one paragraph.

Bye for the time being, Eve. Take care and with best wishes, Prasanna