Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Juan E's Forum Activity | 272 posts in 1 forum


Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 31 Jan 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Link Smickman wrote: I may be someone who has true love as k talked about and not forgive someone or people of the past.

If you don't mind, i would like to listen to you elaborate a little bit more on that ...

p.s.: thanks Clive!

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 31 Jan 2017
Topic: On the root of separation

Clive Elwell wrote: Why has thought created a thinker?

To perpetuate itself? ... Which could lead us to ask: why thought wants/needs to perpetuate itself as a [separate] thinker?

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 31 Jan 2017
Topic: On the root of separation

Mina Martini wrote: thought is both the cause and the effect of this separation.

And thought has arisen from where? ... What was the cause for the first thought that had no thinker?

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 31 Jan 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Tom Paine wrote: Most of us are aware of the obvious images

Tom Paine wrote: How do you feel one could set about to uproot all the images?

Maybe the failing (to use some word) is in that the awareness of those obvious images is not such awareness, but just imagination ... What do you think?

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 31 Jan 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Link Smickman wrote: Alot of white people who promote political correctness right now are also promoting a kind of strict communism. Resolution cannot come from this and these people are rooted in irresponsibility. They just want to party basically.

You talk about true dialogue/communication in your post, but i was wandering what kind of true dialogue/communication can exist between two persons when one of them thinks a priory that the other is promoting a kind of strict communism and that he or she is rooted in irresponsibility ...

Maybe you could clarify this to me?.

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 31 Jan 2017
Topic: On the root of separation

Olive B wrote: Thought itself is a seemingly limited temporarily object,

It is indeed, unfortunately it has a great tool at hand, which is memory.

and has no ability to separate or create anything.

Memory has!

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 31 Jan 2017
Topic: On the root of separation

Clive Elwell wrote:

Dan McDermott wrote:

. 'We' are not separate from our thought. ("The thinker is the thought")

Yes, this is clear, this is so, and my question was, why does thought pretend, keep pretending, the opposite?

Is it really thought, or is its creation who keeps pretending the opposite?

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 31 Jan 2017
Topic: On the root of separation

Wim Opdam wrote: Yes we must because the thought process is in the present

Yes, but rooted in the past.

and very different from thinking with a clear mind

I'm not sure if there exist such a thing as "thinking with a clear mind", or there's only perception flowing with the perceived (whatever it can be) ... What do you think?

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 01 Feb 2017
Topic: On the root of separation

Clive Elwell wrote: Can there be passive awareness of this dualistic process, without any judgement or reaction to it?

I would not use the word "passive", as awareness is always active in some way ... And with regard to your question i say yes.

And if that is there, does this process still exist?. Just asking.

To me awareness does not stop the old (and deeply rooted) pattern from arising in the mind, but somehow it prevents it from performing any of its usual inner and outer actions ... To me awareness is only a watcher of the deeply rooted endless movements of the thought/mind, a watcher that strangely has some power on what it is watching not letting it somehow to manifest (as it uses to do when such awareness is not there).

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 01 Feb 2017
Topic: On the root of separation

Olive B wrote: Scientists have a very strong “ I am the body belief “

The so called religious people too, and i was just wandering when the human being will be able to read the book of life he never stops writing either as scientist or as a religious person ... Why the human being thinks there are thousand hands writing this book when there's only one, his own?

Anyway, i would like to ask you Olive if there's not division in oneself when one makes such statement as yours quoted here ... What do you feel?

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 01 Feb 2017
Topic: On the root of separation

Olive B wrote: What is it that knows that you have the experience in the now.


Who knows that you not seeking for happiness?


Who says one can’t know the I in “I am” and one can’t know the essence of experience?

The same entity that is putting this questions to Clive

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 01 Feb 2017
Topic: My thoughts are not my thoughts

Clive Elwell wrote: Simultaneously with an experience an experiencer must come into existence, no?

I would answer no to your question ... I would say that it is the thinker who creates the experience which is just lived in the actuality (when it is happening) and therefore unknown to the thought ...

In those famous 12 seminar dialogues that i mentioned more than one time here in the forum, both K and Dr. Bohm agree in that the brain records somehow what is happening (and i would agree also with them) ...

So, to me it is the thinker who uses this recording to create the experience and eventually say "I have experienced this and that", which is just imagination on its side (even if it thinks that it actually experienced this and that) ...

What would you (any) comment on this?

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 02 Feb 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Clive Elwell wrote: What brings about the ending of image forming is being aware of the process of image forming.

Could we start this inquire from the beginning? ...

When does one start to inquire within oneself that all the views one has about the world and of oneself are nothing but conditioned images? ... And after that we could follow with: What does one require to not convert that inquire into another self-conditioned image? ...

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 02 Feb 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Clive Elwell wrote: And to uncover the image-making process – does that imply uncovering images one by one?

No, watching the process should be enough to stop any attachment to any created images ... But as i've said above, first one has to deeply question oneself to become fully aware that one is creating and relating to everything (even to oneself) through conditioned images, all the time ... and of course, have no fear at all of being nothing when one's attachment to those images ends through that seeing (because simply put, all those images are all what 'I' am, and without them i'm absolutely nothing).

That thing called love can't be without ending absolutely with all attachment to any created image.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 02 Feb 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Tom Paine wrote: Watching will uncover all the unconscious images...unconscious programming that influences our behavior throughout the day?

Yes if that watching is not stopped by likes and dislikes of what is being seen ...

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 03 Feb 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Tom Paine wrote: So past images of good and bad or right or wrong interrupt the watching. Isn't this what happens?

Yes, this is what early christians labelled as 'daemons' (and its watchfulness 'spiritual combat'), and 'Maras' (daemons in Sanskrit) by Buddha ... but they are no other than our precious mind, known by all of us as 'me', 'I', 'self', and so on ...

Therefore, the story of mankind is its constant 'fighting' with those demons in a way or another; guided by all those who decided to acknowledge and 'fight' with them in its multiple ways ... Unfortunately for mankind, each one of them labelled them with different words although they all were talking about the same and only thing: i.e.: the human mind ...

And here is our conditioning: that we've forget how to look directly at those 'daemons' without the help of all the multiple labels we've put in the past, in the same way that most of the parents nowadays don't know how to raise their children without all those self-aid books in the bookshops that tell them how to do it ...

So, we never look at them but through all kind of labels, spending our lifes discussing which label is better to define those multiple daemons which in fact are only one: our own mind ...

Therefore ... that's why 'past images of good and bad or right or wrong interrupt the watching' (that in fact never has begun, us not being free, as it seems most of us are, of all those labels to look at those 'daemons' as they deserve)

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 04 Feb 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Clive Elwell wrote:

Juan E wrote:

That thing called love can't be without ending absolutely with all attachment to any created image.

Yes Juan, I think that is absolutely true.

Heres another one i saw yesterday within the relationship you already know:

Love can only abide-in and spread-from the realm of total insecurity ... ... otherwise there is no love at all, but just imagination that one loves.

I must leave for my watercolor class, i'll answer your recent post later when i come back.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 04 Feb 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Olive B wrote: ...the human consciousness, which is finite.

I am confused too, please tell me:

Are you not limiting consciousness here also? ... On which basis are you making such statement, being you also a human being?

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 05 Feb 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Clive Elwell wrote: It may be that human consciousness, as it generally is now, is very much a limited part of the Universal Consciousness,

As you are happy being questioned ;-) ... I know you said 'it may be' but let me ask:

In which way a part of something which is (supposedly) infinite can be limited? Or, how is it that a limited consciousness can talk of a much broader consciousness?

It could be that such a Universal Consciousness were just an invention of such limited consciousness in the same way it invented God: as something beyond itself having seen its own limitation ...

Perhaps you or Olive, could elaborate on why human consciousness is limited.

OFF-TOPIC:

I don't know if human consciousness is limited, but that it is contradictory it is a fact:

I'm watching an special TV News for deaf and blind people ... First news has been that this week all around the world there has been a remembrance for all those who died in nazi concentrations camps during 2nd WW (homosexuals, handicapped, jehovah's witnesses, and so on), all the politicians saying that this should not happen again ... But the next news has been about a Spanish law (signed by those very same politicians) that prohibits deaf, blind, and disabled people to marry without the authorization of a doctor ...

Human being is amazing, isn't it?!

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 05 Feb 2017
Topic: The resolution to the disordered world we live in

Clive Elwell wrote: Such an urge there is, to seek security in relationship.

Yes, most of the times unconsciously, one being absolutely convinced that all the actions in the relationship are because one truly loves the other ... One has to be really honest to become aware that most of the times one is only seeking psychological security in the relationship.

Clive Elwell wrote: when carried over into the psychological realm, it makes no sense, because it is simply not possible.

Yes, impossible ... unfortunately, we human beings seem not to admit that love can exist only when that seeking psychological security is ended ... therefore we continue looking for it, thinking that there will be someone out there who will bring us such security ('i've found the love of my life', we use to say ... before we realize that our seeking still has not ended)

Clive Elwell wrote: And we do a lot of damage when seeking security in relationship.

Oh yes! A lot of damage to ourselves as well as to the other(s) ... Unnecessary hurts that will accompany us for the rest of our lives, or until we actually see the nonsense of that seeking ... A seeing which is able to cure all the hurts we have carried on until then, and which allows us to see also the same hurts on the other(s) ... And a seeing that has the power to bring us the opportunity to love for the first time ever.

Clive Elwell wrote: Then we are basically exploiting the other, wanting them to provide emotional security for us. This is a form of violence, is it not?

Yes, difficult to see that we are being violent when we are telling the other 'I love you', we not being fully aware of what is hidden behind this love ... Again, honesty and aloneness (which doesn't mean at all being divided from others) to actually see all that is the beginning of a love we don't know ...

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 06 Feb 2017
Topic: Image, Relationship, Love

Good morning Clive, et Al. ...

Clive Elwell wrote: I think this is the value of an affectionate open, inquiring relationship - there is the space for two people to go into these issues, not to accept the status quo, not to draw conclusions about what is love. To see things as they actually are in relationship without fear and without the relationship being fundamentally threatened.

I don't have so much time as i must leave for work in a few minutes ... But i wouldn't like to leave without saying something about those two people you put in the middle of our inquiring about love ...

As i have said, love is companion with aloneness, or in other words the one who loves is alone within that love ... Of course, we would like the other to accompany us with our inquiring/discovering of what love is, but usually this is not the case, which most of the times this is translated into images of the other in the one who supposedly is inquiring into love ...

I'm sorry i have not more time, but i think you'll get a glimpse of what i want to convey ... Anyway i'll elaborate on that this evening when i come back home.

Leaving for work in a hurry (as always ;-)

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 06 Feb 2017
Topic: Image, Relationship, Love

Olive B wrote: Who is viewing?

What remains there when the 'me' has ended with any resistance, with any identification ... This are not mere words, but an actuality.

Olive B wrote: What is viewed?

Nothing, and yet everything is seen

Olive B wrote: If we view a tree in a landscape, what are we viewing?

Some of us will see nothing, some others will see just the tree, some others will see the tree and the landscape as two, some others will see the tree and the landscape as one, and some others will see that there's nothing to see and within that not-seeing they will see everything: themselves, the tree, the landscape, and the universe without no name and therefore neither as one nor as two, neither as existent nor as non-existent ... But the fact is that all of us do see something, therefore to say 'i see what others don't see', is the same as to say 'i don't see what others see', or what is the same 'i'm not different from those who don't see what i see even if i pretend to be' ...

Only those who see that there's nothing to see, do actually see ... and strangely enough, they never put themselves above those who dare to say that they see what others don't see ...

p.s.: ... and don't take my words as personal, because i'm neither talking about you, nor of anybody else here in the forum ... i'm just stating a fact, that's all.

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 07 Feb 2017
Topic: On the divine purpose

I was wandering if you see the contradiction here Mina ... ... using a lot of images to describe that which you say does not belong to any images/knowledge/past.

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 07 Feb 2017
Topic: On the divine purpose

Ok, let me ask you then in another way:

Why do you felt the need to describe with words that which doesn't feet in any description? ...

Mina Martini wrote: No, not experiencing any contradiction. This is because the word, the description, is not taken to be the described or the actuality.

Then of what are you talking about in the initial post?

Mina Martini wrote: Contradiction is born between descriptions, and at the moment we take description for the described, we have entered the world of the thinker separate from thought.

Then perhaps you can tell us how we should take your description above, because you seem to say here that they are nothing but empty words ... Now, what makes one to write empty words that because its very nature will not convey anything to others?

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 07 Feb 2017
Topic: On the divine purpose

Mina Martini wrote: It is not as complicated as there being somebody feeling the need to describe something etc

OK, let's try for the third time ... I have a lot of patience! ;-)

Why one would feel the need to describe something one is no longer feeling and which, therefore, can only be described through images/knowledge/past? ... Precisely that which the description tries to deny!

Mina Martini wrote: the ultimate purpose of being here on Earth.

I was wandering if you see what a terrible limitation is for the mind to have an 'ultimate purpose of being here on Earth' ... The river flows, but it has no ultimate purpose of being here on Earth to reach the Sea, it simply reaches it without any purpose ... Why then, should the mind/being/heart/awareness, or whatever you want to call it, have an ultimate purpose of being here on Earth?

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 08 Feb 2017
Topic: On the divine purpose

Mina Martini wrote: I did not mean anything that is separate from "the flowing river"...

So there's no ultimate purpose at all in anything as it is a continuous flowing Then, why the need to mention something which does not exists at all, to put it in words?

Forum: A Quiet Space Wed, 08 Feb 2017
Topic: Image, Relationship, Love

Olive B wrote (quoting Nisargadatta): “ ‘I am this, I am that' is dream, while pure'I am' has the stamp of reality on it.

Pure 'I am'?! ... Oh my goodness!

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 09 Feb 2017
Topic: Image, Relationship, Love

Olive B wrote: Yes Huguette, there is “a world” of difference between “I am this body” and “I am”.

Both share an 'I' identifying itself with something, where is the difference?

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 10 Feb 2017
Topic: Image, Relationship, Love

Huguette . wrote: The source of A THOUGHT LIKE "I HAVE A CANCER" is the fact of cancer and understanding the fact of it. It IS not putting a cover on it, not saying it is good or bad, not taking a measure of its goodness or badness. JUST STATING A FACT OF IT.

Hi Huguette! ... Your words made me ask to myself (and to you too): are the words stating a fact (which accordingly to K is what is happening now) really a thought? ... I would say they are not, what is your feeling?

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 11 Feb 2017
Topic: Interesting QOTD

Clive Elwell wrote: A question comes: if no one can tell you what is true, can anyone tell you what is false?

Why not take this question a step further?

  • If i can not tell to myself what is true, can i tell to myself what is false?

'Truth' is not 'me', and yet it can be seen/felt by 'me' but just as spectator 'I' can not act on it, but it can act on 'me' on its own accord And if i say 'I love you' i'm a liar to myself and others, pretending 'I' have actualized it

So, 'me' not being the truth, can not say to myself 'this is true and that is false'

And yet, there's truthfulness and falseness ... ... but just seen/felt by 'me' and not by that which 'I' have called 'truth'

That 'something' manifest itself through senses (uses them) ... ... hence 'me' thinking that 'I've met the truth (and falseness)'

But i would like to ask you all: can truth or falseness really be met by 'me' (or any other 'me')?