Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Jose Roberto Moreira's Forum Activity | 118 posts in 1 forum


Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 01 Jan 2016
Topic: Taking the wrong turn all the time

Clive, as we discussed in Brockwood, I read a book entitled a brief history of mankind. The author, Yuval Noah Harari, claims that what made the Homo sapiens win the battle against other human races, such as the Neandertal, was his ability to have abstract ideas. For instance, it was found, in a cave, a painting of a man with a lion head. The painting was made 30,000 years ago!! So, the homo sapiens had the idea of god, cities, countries, etc. This allowed thousands of individuals to work together, making them invincible. Maybe that was the wrong turn, the ability to believe in something which is not real.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 11 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Very interesting indeed this discussion. According to K, a proper meditation requires the observation of the time interval between thoughts. He claimed he could walk for hours, without a single thought and also that driving would facilitate his meditation. However, one needs thought to drive, to walk, to find the way back home, etc. And there are the thoughts necessary to control body temperature, the breath, the heart beating, etc.

It is obvious that thought cannot stop, otherwise we would die or not be able to walk.

Those thoughts are natural and do not seem to cause any problem. Maybe they can occur simultaneously because there must be billions of thoughts per second.

But I wonder if we really know what type of thought K is refering to. It is easy to see the conscious thoughts operation, but not the unconscious ones. Can we distinguish unconscious thougts from the "natural thoughts" described above?

Another question: if there is a time interval between thoughts, what would prevent observation of it, if thought is not there to disturb?

Sorry, I have only questions, not answers :-)

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 12 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Clive Elwell wrote: Yes, I think it might be useful to bring the word “meditation” into this inquiry. Can you give any exact citation for this, Jose, or give any similar quotes?

Sorry, Clive, I can not. I read this, maybe, ten or fifteen years ago.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 12 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Juan E wrote: Bem-vindo Jose!

Muito obrigado, Juan!!

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 12 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Olive B wrote: Just a simple question that has come to mind in reading this:

How can someone know that has walked for hours without a single thought?

Very good question. k once said that it took years for him to realize that he rarely had thoughts!!

But I think what goes on in our mind is even more important. I sometimes have the impression that thoughts disappeared, for a short time interval. There is a memory that that has happened but it cannot be translated into a known experience. I cannot find a name for that feeling. I cannot be sure there was no thought, but I would bet there was no thought.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 12 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Juan E wrote: Any evidence that thought is responsible to control all that you mention here?

Again, very good question. I am not a specialist but it seems that it is the brain which controls the rest of the body. For instance, our body shivers if it is too cold. I think the body sends a signal to the brain that the temperature is too low and the brain sends back a signal making the body to shiver. My questions are: can that be considered an unconscious thought? Is it possible for a human being to be aware of that brain signals?

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 12 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Juan E wrote: No, if one where able to distinguish that, it would mean that there are no unconscious thoughts at all ... Perhaps the question should be: can we live unconscious thoughts in the same way as we live "natural thoughts"? ...

After going through very painfull experiences, I learned by myself that there are really unconscious thoughts. I can detect them by a response of my body to certain thoughts or images. But I do not have the faintest idea how or why there is such a response. But I am pretty sure it is the response of the subconscious. And this may have a profound effect. Peter Levine studied this a lot.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 12 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Juan E wrote: We wanting to observe that space, this is the disturbance that prevents us to observe that space.

By definition, the self is not there during that interval. :-)

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 12 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Clive Elwell wrote: I think a distinction that needs to be drawn is thought functioning healthily – by which I mean with this thinker-thought division, and so without conflict, and thought which carries the illusion that there is a thinker separate from thought.

Yes, I think conflict is the key point. For instance, many years ago, in Majorca, Spain, I was driving along a two lane road, when a car crossed the road in front of me, after exiting a gas station. Somehow, my brain, or whatever it was, made an amazing and very fast decision which saved my life, as well as my wife´s, my son´s and the crazy driver´s life. There was no conflict at all and yet, I think, that decision was made based in a lot of knowledge. All the possibilities were analysed almost instantly and the right one chosen. No conflict at all. Then we should ask ourselves, is there a conflict in a subconscious thought?

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 19 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Juan E wrote: Yes, by definition ... but K also said somewhere, that thought is able to keep some memory of that space without the me ... and it is through that memory that though tries to penetrate that space in its wish to understand it ... And so, it is in that trying to understand that space by thought itself that that which creates the disturbance that prevents us to observe it really occurs ... Because that space will never be understood by thought but simply living it without thought ... And it is in that living space that everything is understood by nobody.

Yes, Juan, sometimes, while watching a face, for instance, there is only the face, the person I am looking at. There is no me. Of course, it happens randomically, I have no control on it. It is a very strange feeling and yes, you are right, or K was right, I have a memory of the absence of the me, but thought cannot understand that, I cannot find words to describe that and yet it seems to be so simple, nothing extraordinary.

I wonder if that very short period is what K calls meditation.

I guess you speak Portuguese. :-)

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 19 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Olive B wrote:

14:HOW CAN YOU QUOTE ME ON YOUR OWN QUESTION JOSE?

What is happening here??

It was a software problem, located exactly between my chair and my keyboard. :-)

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 19 Mar 2017
Topic: Thought and the space between thought

Santi Borgni wrote: Clive starts stating that that space is “something that is probably actually impossible to describe”. Why it is seen as being so important if one does not know a thing about it?

Very good question. Would we give it the same importance if K had not spoken about it?

Ever since I was a little boy, I suspected there was something different in the silence I could perceive, particularly when in contact with nature. But I never gave it too much importance until I read K.

Maybe the most important point here is realize that our mind is not quick enough to see when thought arises or ends and observe that time interval between.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 07 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

K said one should give 100% of one's energy in order to change.

The question is: what is the real driver of our energy?

I can see in myself that my real drive is the search for psychological security, comfort and pleasure.

Obviously, the real drive needs no stimulation, we, effortlessly will dedicate all our attention to that. This is exactly what K replied to Scott Forbes when he asked why he did not change: "you do not pay attention".

In Brockwood I have asked the topic question to two persons I consider deeply involved with the teachings. I got two completely different answers.

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 09 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Clive, I tried to reply yesterday but there was a software problem. This is a test.

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 09 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

This is my understanding of what K meant. Probably, those are not his very words. However, he often mentioned that one has to give all energy, that one should be willing to give everything for it. Obviously he was not speaking about giving the energy in order to get a result, as the word change would imply.

I will try to find the quote(s).

But more important than the quote is our personal experience on this subject.

I am in Mallorca now. I remembered that I was here 25 years ago and while driving in a narrow two lane road,I saw a car preparing to exit a gas station. To my surprise, the car just crossed, slowly, the road in front of my car as if he had not seen me.

Instantaneously, I saw the danger of it and, naturally and effortlessly, I gave 100 % of my energy and ALL my attention to that situation. All my body and mind were there in that moment. In a fraction of a second I made a unusual decision that may have saved the life of my family and the other car passengers.

I was living in the present, there was no conflict at all. There was fear but only the healthy fear, necessary for survival. Actually, I wonder if that can be called fear.

There was an intelligent action that the 'me" could not possibly have done. That intelligence obviously used all my driving skills that my brain learned over the past 15 years.

It happened exactly what K used to say: if one really sees the danger, an immediate and intelligent action will occur.

Coincidentally, after writing this, yesterday I was driving through Mallorca mountais, when a goat just materialized in front of my car. Again, all my attention was there and I managed to break quickly enough to avoid the collision.  At that very moment, there was only the goat and the road in front of me. The "me" was not there, nor any conflict and yet something managed to act in an intelligent manner. Definetely, I gave 100% of my energy.  

I have the impression that we are in a colision course and do not realise that.

Do we give 100% of our energy to see where we are going to, in order to change the course? Maybe this is the right question.

Why does it take all attention to see that?

Is there partial attention or only inatention?

Why almost all my attention is self centered?

The examples that Clive mentioned are very interesting. Similarly, one could watch 3 K DVDs every day, participate of forums like this on a daily basis, pay attention to every single thought, etc. This maybe necessary, but all this may not be effortlessly, if this is really not our main interest in life.

So, I would add the word effortlessly to the question.

 Do we give 100% of our energy, effortlessly, to see where we are going to, in order to change the course?

Forum: A Quiet Space Sat, 13 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Actually, I was not refering to give "more" energy. Of course I may be wrong but I have the impression that it is either on or off. It has to be 100% of our energy. 99,99% is not enough.

It is like pregnancy, a woman is either pregnant or not.

Likewise, we are either in the present moment or not.

According to K, the brain is desperately looking for security and order. But, somehow, it tries "wrong places" such as nationalism, religion and even on neurosis. I understood it is like a starving person. The body will then naturally give all energy to find food because there is a real danger of death. So, I think, our real drive is set by a brain hungry for order.

Of course K may be wrong on this matter, but the more I observe myself the more I tend to agree with him. 

This would explain why "intelligent" people believe in absurd ideas when religion is involved. 

There are four  things that I know that can make the desperate conditioned brain to be in the present or face "what is":

1) a sudden real danger like the risk of car collision.

2) a stunned mind when it sees a beautiful mountain or similar.  K said he was not speaking about a stunned mind.

3)  An insight. Maybe everyone really interested in K has had one or more insight. Someone told me that K said this, during a talk, refering to the audience. Sorry, I do not have the reference. :-)

4) Curiosity

To me, number 4 is the key one. The only time in my life that I looked at fear with curiosity it disappeared, exactly as K said.

We can only be curious about something new, unknown.

We almost never look at suffering with curiosity.  Why not?

Clive, the first person I asked the question of 100% of energy, in Brockwood watches 3 K DVDs every day and has watched, listened or read everything available about K.  The answer to the question was a prompt YES! I then immediatelly asked why a change did not occur? I did not quite understand the answer.

The other person met K. The not so prompt answer was NO. This person said K was very curious.

Both are good friends that I consider deeply involved with the teachings and really have dedicated their lives to it.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 21 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

I woke up this morning thinking about this question. Definitely, in my case, desire is an obstacle to awareness. Where desire come from? It is not so clear to me. Will do the same as Tom and come back later.

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 22 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Clive Elwell wrote: Either way, why should desire overwhelm awareness?

Well, Clive, I can see in myself that the desire to be aware prevents awareness. This happens to me all the time.

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 22 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Tom Paine wrote: So there’s normally a chain of thoughts that follows from a simple desire.

Tom, would you call this the movement of thought, that K often refered to?

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 23 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Very good question,Tom. I Will think about it. We lack attention when thought moves to the past or to the future. This is a fact. K said he was not talking about stopping thought but the movement of thought. I think we should be able to observe the very beginning of one thought in order to understand what is the movement of thought. Have you ever did it?

Forum: A Quiet Space Tue, 23 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Done it

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 28 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

I think so!

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 28 Oct 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Good question! From my experience, when one gives all his energy, one is not aware of that.

Forum: A Quiet Space Fri, 02 Nov 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Actually, I think the right question is: what is my real drive in life? Naturally, I would give all my energy to that. A fanatic muslim would die for his crazy drive in life.

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 15 Nov 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Clive Elwell wrote: And without identification, can one then say, truly, "I don't mind what happens"?

One can only say that, without any shadow of fear, I think.

Forum: A Quiet Space Sun, 18 Nov 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Clive, I have been following up all the comments with great interest. I have been thinking a lot about the matter of energy. In my case, I have the impression my real, deep interest is egocentric. One has to be honest, as you said. I even wonder if I am really interested in the teachings or it is just entertainment, an escape. And yet, I think this is what the teachings is all about. It seems to be a contradiction!

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 19 Nov 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Hi Clive!

Is there any award for record setting? :-)

Actually, I described the answers in thread 22.

I have two other friends in Brazil that also give a lot of energy to the teachings, but I have the feeling that it is just an escape or even fanaticism. In their case, maybe, the teachings became more important than life itself.

One of them just keep on quoting K as if he really had understood it. He is getting old and things are getting worse.

I did not ask them this question. I will do it!

Forum: A Quiet Space Thu, 22 Nov 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Clive Elwell wrote: Jose Roberto Moreira wrote:

In their case, maybe, the teachings became more important than life itself.

Can you expand on that, Jose?

Well, it is like living according to the Bible or an idea. This becomes more important than the nature, persons and eventually life. One indication is no sense of humour. Another one is a sense of superiority because we know "very well" the teachings.

Of course, quoting K is all right, but a statement is anothe matter. If a say that the observer is the observed, it has no meaning. To me it is not a reality.

Actually, I wonder what part of the teachings I could say I see as real.

I could start by saying that I have no love. Or thought has no love.

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 26 Nov 2018
Topic: Do you give 100% of your energy to change?

Hi Clive,

I thought a lot about this. There is judging behind it, which, of course, prevents pure observation. But I have the impression that the judging is not as strong as it used to be. If that is possible. :-)

Do you think there are grades of judging or just judging?

I was wondering whether any judgment generate conflict, which, obviously, dissipates energy. Actually I was discussing with other friends about conflict. It is not very clear the definition of conflict. We were discussing whether a baby has conflict.

Forum: A Quiet Space Mon, 26 Nov 2018
Topic: All one inquiry

Clive Elwell wrote: And this morning I dipped into the book of dialogues with K “Tradition and Revolution”. Here is an excerpt:

Very interesting! In what chapter is it?